Landlord wants to sell-6 months left on lease

harmacist

Went looking for a rent reduction via letting agent and the landlord decided he wants to sell the place! We've six months left on our lease (with no get-out-cause-i-want to-sell-up clause- i think!) and he wants to start showing potential buyers around.

Being blunt I ca't be ar**d having people trooping around the place either when we're not home or not, mostly because the landlord has always been unhelpful when contacted if he ever responded at all (at least the letting agent always seemed to place the blame on the landlord for not responding)

Anyway, are we obliged to allow the agent to show people around? At least until the last month or so of the lease...

I'd love to know what the whole legal-letter-of-the-law aspect is if anyone can shed some light.
1) About turfing us out early
2) about showing people around
Thanks.

hideous ape

Contact Threshold or have a look on their website:

http://www.threshold.ie/

Agent J

Hmm.

Selling the house is a vaild reason for the landlord to serve notice under the 2004 act.
I would take the notice and get gone to be honest rather then put up with a few months of people coming and going.

You are within your rights to refuse beyond reasonable access for the landlord.

hideous ape

Ya it might be a blessing in disguise. You will get a similar place for 100 to 200 cheaper now or a much nicer place for the same rent. I'm in Cork and just bagged a luxury two bed house for 900e, a six month lease and a guaranteed rent review if I will stay for another 6 month lease. In 2008 this place would have rented for 1200e.

Landlords that act the tit or are unwilling to be flexible are getting hammered now. My old apartment block has 14 apartments sitting empty slap bang in Cork city centre...the place was like a ghost town when I was leaving.

He may want to sell but who exactly will be buying! He's in for some shock when the place is sitting empty months after you have left. If I was you I would start looking for a new place ASAP and be ready to go the next time he mentions selling up. Sign up for an account on Daft and checkout Property.ie as well.

Agents often don't bother contacting the landlord when they say they do. One of my old agencies was charging 150e above what the landlord had agreed..the agent was pocketing the 150e. Thankfully they were caught out and brought to court.

harmacist

Thanks for that.... for a few reasons the timing for a move is a bit pants but you're probably all right about it being a blessing in disguise(ish!)....
I see the selling-as-a-valid reason thing on threshold alright, but I'm wondering if thats in the case of an ongoing tenancy rather than a a fixed term lease.. I might give thema shout at threshold to see what the craic is.

patftrears

harmacist wrote: »

Thanks for that.... for a view reasons the timing for a move is a bit pants but you're probably all right about it being a blessing in disguise(ish!)....
I see the selling-as-a-valid reason thing on threshold alright, but I'm wondering if thats in the case of an ongoing tenancy rather than a a fixed term lease.. I might give thema shout at threshold to see what the craic is.

http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=74&page=239
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=246

Board-in-work

Hi,

I'm afraid that selling the property is a valid reason to serve you notice. What you can do, is ensure the landlord gives you 24 hours notice for a viewing, and agree to it only if it is convenient to you - i.e you'd probably want to be there rather than have strangers walk around your house. I'm sure they would want the place tidy for a viewing - so they have to accomodate you for you to co-operate. An EA once got shirty with me about viewings - until I threatened to have a load of drunken mates around during viewings they wanted to do that were inconvenient to me.

whizzbang

A 1 year lease is a 1 year lease. they cannot sell it until your lease is up. If you had no written lease and were falling back on a Part 4 defacto lease, then they could. But it you have a one year lease signed, then there is nothing they can do unless the lease has a break clause in it. Much like you could not leave before a year is up without owing the landlord the remainder of the years rent.

They could of course buy you out of the lease if they wanted to. Ask them for €1,000 to move out early forgoing the remainder of your lease, then rent somewhere else for cheaper. Your landlord should realise that they will lose more than a grand by waiting and should hopefully pay you off to leave. Landlords need to realise that they have obligations as a supplier of a service and cannot go pushing tenants around. If they put it up for rent for a year then they have to live with the consequences of that or pay to amend their mistake.

You are under no obligation to leave until your lease is up unless you break the terms of the lease somehow.

As for showing people around I think they have the right to show people around in the last month of a lease but only with your agreement and only at well notified pre-arranged times.

gibo_ie

whizzbang wrote: »

A 1 year lease is a 1 year lease. they cannot sell it until your lease is up. If you had not written lease and were falling back on a Part 4 defacto lease, then they could. But it you have a one year lease signed, then there is nothing they can do unless the lease have a break clause in it.

They could of course buy you out of the lease if they wanted to. Ask them for €5,000 to move out early forgoing the remainder of your lease, then rent somewhere else for cheaper. Your landlord should realise that they will lose more than 5 grand by waiting and should hopefully pay you off to leave.

You are under no obligation to leave until your lease is up.

Sorry wizz but you are incorrect!

A Landlord may end the lease if he/she IINTENDS TO SELL WITHIN THE NEXT 3 MONTHS in either a part4 or a fixed term lease (1 year for example)
Quote from PRTB website:
Termination of a tenancy by the landlord
Valid notice (see section 62 of the Act)
In order to be valid, a notice of termination must:
State the reason for termination (where the tenancy has lasted for
more than 6 months or is a fixed term tenancy).

Source: http://www.prtb.ie/Landlord_Tenant/English%20Landlord.pdf

Reasons to be given in the notice (see section 34 of the act)
In general, where a tenancy has lasted more than 6 months and less
than 4 years, the reason for the termination must be stated in the
notice and the termination will not be valid unless that reason relates to
one of the following:
the tenant has failed to comply with the obligations of the tenancy
(having first been notified of the failure and given an opportunity to
remedy it).
the landlord intends to sell the dwelling within the next 3 months.

Please check facts before giving advice!

I would suggest the tenant come to an acceptable arrangement about moving out and return of their deposit. Once the correct notice period is given OP i am afraid you are not entitled to anything else.

As for showing prospective buyers around, i believe the final two weeks of your contract would allow for this giving you the correct notice of 48 hours, this may be contract specific so please check your individual lease.

whizzbang

Gibo_ie, I've checked these facts quite a few times! That PDF refers to non fixed term leases, that document also says a tenant can break a lease with X amount of notice which is definitely not correct for a fixed term lease. Its bad that they do not make it clearer that this refers to Part 4 leases only. To be fair, the PRTB web site is a confusing mess.

Please see page 2 of this, it is very clear on how a fixed term lease is handled. At least this document references the original act to make it clearer:
http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termination%20of%20FT.pdf

Fixed Term Tenancies
A landlord can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the tenant has been in breach of his or
her obligations.5 Accordingly, a landlord cannot rely on the provisions of Section 34, to terminate a
fixed term tenancy during the fixed term. Following the expiration of the fixed term period however, if
the tenant has exercised his rights under Part 4, to extend his tenure for the remainder of the Part 4
tenancy of 4 years, the landlord can from then on, rely on the provisions of Section 34.
Similarly, a tenant can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the landlord has been in
breach of his or her obligations.6 In addition however, where the landlord has refused consent to an
assignment or sub-let, the tenant can also terminate the tenancy, in accordance with Section 186.


A contract is a contract, you cannot just decide to ditch it unless there is a break clause in the contract. This applies to both Landlords and renters.

If in doubt they should call the PRTB or threshold. Don't just assume the Landlord can sell your home out from under you.

gibo_ie

whizzbang wrote: »

Gibo_ie, I've checked these facts quite a few times! I think that PDF refers to non fixed term leases, that document also says a tenant can break a lease with X amount of notice which is definitely not correct for a fixed term lease.

Its bad that they do not make it clearer that this refers to Part 4 leases only.

Please see http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=246

A contract is a contract, you cannot just decide to ditch it unless there is a break clause in the contract. This applies to both Landlords and renters.

If in doubt they should call the PRTB or threshold. Dont' just assume the Landlord can sell your home out from under you.

Threshold are only an advisory board. PRTB (Law) can over rule any contract as contracts/leases must abide by PRTB rules.
The link above i sent specifically refers to fixed term lease in the wording.
I have just called the PRTB now and they confirmed what i just said.

RE: Tenants breaking lease, they too must abide by certian rules and reasons for breaking lease (easy in the first 6 months for example)

whizzbang

I edit my Link is to be to a PRTB document. It states that a fixed term lease cannot be broken by the landlord during the period of the fixed term.

From the original Act.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

58.—(1) From the relevant date, a tenancy of a dwelling may not
be terminated by the landlord or the tenant by means of a notice of
forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided
by this Part.
(2) Accordingly, the termination by the landlord or the tenant
of—
(a) more beneficial rights referred to in section 26 that the tenant
enjoys under a tenancy than those created by Part 4,
or
(b) a tenancy to which section 25 applies,
must be effected by means of a notice of termination that complies
with this Part.
(3) Each of the following—
(a) a tenancy referred to in subsection (2)(a) (unless it expressly
excludes this means of termination),
(b) a tenancy referred to in subsection (2)(b), and
(c) a tenancy of a dwelling created before or after the relevant
date in so far as its operation is not affected by Part 4,
shall be construed as including a term enabling its termination by
means of a notice of termination that complies with this Part (but,
in the case of a tenancy that is for a fixed period, unless it provides
otherwise, only where there has been a failure by the party in
relation to whom the notice is served to comply with any obligations
of the tenancy).


If in doubt call a dispute with the PRTB and quote these sections of the act and their own document on fixed term leases here:
http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termination%20of%20FT.pdf

Its often confused, and even the PRTB people get it wrong on the phone, but the law is on your side in this one. Unfortunately people think section 34 of the Act applied to all leases when it only applies to Part 4 leases (non fixed or written down)

RentDayBlues

Have to agree with Whizzbang, the LL cannot terminate a fixed term lease in order to sell the property - he has to sell it with the tenant in place.

As for letting the agent show people around, this will be a huge amount of hassle for the tenant. You MUST be given 24 hours notice of them entering the property, make sure you get this.

And to be honest, with the market the way it is at the moment unless the place is an absolute bargain I doubt there will be a lot of viewings.

OP - you have 2 choices. Stay put until the end of the lease and allow the LL/agency access to the property at 24 hours notice to show it or request from the LL an agreement to terminate the lease with notice.

whizzbang

RentDayBlues wrote: »

Have to agree with Whizzbang, the LL cannot terminate a fixed term lease in order to sell the property - he has to sell it with the tenant in place.

As for letting the agent show people around, this will be a huge amount of hassle for the tenant. You MUST be given 24 hours notice of them entering the property, make sure you get this.

And to be honest, with the market the way it is at the moment unless the place is an absolute bargain I doubt there will be a lot of viewings.

OP - you have 2 choices. Stay put until the end of the lease and allow the LL/agency access to the property at 24 hours notice to show it or request from the LL an agreement to terminate the lease with notice.

To be fair, leaving the lease and renting for less in the same area could be a nice result for the OP.

harmacist

Thanks folks. At least I can chat to the EA now with a bit of a clue where I stand. Gettin hitched in a couple of weeks so would rather be worrying about the cake trimmings and whether my pervy old uncle is going to bother my female friends on the dancefloor than whether we'll be faced with a move straight after the honeymoon....

whizzbang

harmacist wrote: »

Thanks folks. At least I can chat to the EA now with a bit of a clue where I stand. Gettin hitched in a couple of weeks so would rather be worrying about the cake trimmings and whether my pervy old uncle is going to bother my female friends on the dancefloor than whether we'll be faced with a move straight after the honeymoon....

Good luck! you don't really need to be worrying about this stuff now alright!

Brian Griffin

gibo_ie wrote: »

Sorry wizz but you are incorrect!


Source: http://www.prtb.ie/Landlord_Tenant/English%20Landlord.pdf

Please check facts before giving advice!

This is from your link:
Termination of fixed term tenancies by the landlord
A fixed term tenancy should last for its duration and should only be
terminated if:
The tenant or landlord has breached one of the conditions of the
lease and/or their obligations under the Act.
The landlord has refused a request by the tenant for assignment of
the lease, allowing the tenant to serve a notice (see section 186 of
the Act).
There are provisions incorporated into the agreement allowing for
early termination (i.e. a break clause).
Regardless of the duration of the letting, the notice of Termination must
specify the reason for the termination. If the reason is for arrears of rent,
then the 14 day warning letter above must still be sent in advance of
the notice. Unless it is specified as a condition of the letting agreement,
the tenant is generally not entitled to an opportunity to remedy the
breach prior to service of the notice.
<
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Generally, the reasons under section 34 are not valid grounds for
terminating a fixed term tenancy. They can only be used if they have
been incorporated as conditions in the fixed term letting agreement.