Arsenal V Celtic - 2nd leg - Emirates

itsjaybud

Again another comfortable victory to night! Roll on 5pm tomorrow and hopefully we get a decent draw!

Some good performances from Denilson and especially Eboue! Anyone see what the message was that he had written on his vest? Maybe some photographer picked it up!

Anyway regards Eduardos dive some of the posts have been quiet funny, and like something johnny giles would say in other words pretty ridicolus comments.

Afaic Eduardo is not that type of player at all, he was obviously expecting some sort of contact from the keeper and with no chance of controlling the ball being so close to the end line he was always going to go down there. Imo the majority of clever attacking players would go down there in that situation when they realise they can not control the ball. This has been the case for years.

Basically if this incident had happened beside the penalty spot there would be no chance that Eduardo would go down imho as he would have the space to possibly control the ball and maybe finish off the move.

Headshot

so has wenger said anything about this dive ?

lisbon_lions

Afaic Eduardo is not that type of player at all, he was obviously expecting some sort of contact from the keeper and with no chance of controlling the ball being so close to the end line he was always going to go down there. Imo the majority of clever attacking players would go down there in that situation when they realise they can not control the ball. This has been the case for years.

Basically if this incident had happened beside the penalty spot there would be no chance that Eduardo would go down imho as he would have the space to possibly control the ball and maybe finish off the move.
Today 21:59

And that is what is fundamentally wrong with the game right now. There is nothing 'clever' about it, its cheating, no matter how you dress it up. Now that it is widely accepted - the game is in a worse place for it.

No gripes about the result, Arsenal were far superior over the 2 legs and good luck in the cup proper.

OPENROAD

Headshot wrote: »

so has wenger said anything about this dive ?

I wouldn't expect him to,like most managers wouldn't say anything, but the media have a fixation with Wenger not saying anything,and it seems supporters are now also doing the same.

A Dub in Glasgo

Headshot wrote: »

so has wenger said anything about this dive ?

blah blah looked a penalty on first look then on the replay maybe not blah Boruc may have caught him with his knee blah blah Eduardo was clattered before therefore he went down blah blah

kippy

greendom wrote: »

But it's exactly the same - the diving attacker is trying to gain an unfair advantage as is the fouling defender. Sometimes they get away with it - other times not, but the intention is exactly the same - except that a foul can result in serious injury as Eduardo found out to his cost

So you are happy enough to see "world class" forwards and midfielders diving around the place in order to gain an unfair advantage?
There is a difference between what you say defenders do and what diving players do.
Defenders aim is to stop attackers scoring. They generally attempt to play the ball (obviously not all the time). When they foul another player they are not intentionally trying to fool anybody, the ref, the fans etc in order to garner an advantage. They are making some form of attempt to defend the goal. Eduardo made no attempt to stay on his feet, no honest attempt at all, pure and simple.
I frankly dont give a toss about the comparisons you are drawing up. Diving is as bad for the game as horror tackles but a lot harder to stamp out because managers tend not to berate their own players for it because they dont have to. Refs have enough to deal with, surely these guys get paid enough to play a bit more honestly. I see diving as a worse trait in a forward as tough tackling in a defender.
Eduardo found one thing out to his cost, its a contact sport, serious injury will happen, whether the other player means it to happen or not. Eduardo made a conscious decision to con the ref tonight and got away with it. Who knows what decision they guy who tackled him made, it was unlikely he wanted to injure him for a long time.

Johnny Utah

Eduardo's legs just went from under him......... not the first time either! :pac:

kenon

Headshot wrote: »

so has wenger said anything about this dive ?

Arsene Wenger wrote:

The Arsenal boss said: "Having seen it again on television it doesn't look to be a penalty but we were likely to score the first goal and we always looked in control of the game.

"I believe it was not a penalty but I'm not sure if the keeper touched him. Eduardo might be a bit cautious because of the injury that he had. He might have jumped out of the way.

"I never asked in my life any player to dive to get a penalty but sometimes the player goes down because there is no way to get out of the way."

Link

kippy

kenon wrote: »

Link

What a load of tosh from Arsene.
If that were that case he didnt need to roll over a few times clutching every muscle in his legs. Seriously, making excuses like that makes it worse.
Tell your players never to dive again Arsene. Fine them next time.

OPENROAD

kippy wrote: »

What a load of tosh from Arsene.
If that were that case he didnt need to roll over a few times clutching every muscle in his legs. Seriously, making excuses like that makes it worse.
Tell your players never to dive again Arsene. Fine them next time.

Maybe he did/will, most managers won't do that in public though.

What team do you support?

kenon

kippy wrote: »

What a load of tosh from Arsene.
If that were that case he didnt need to roll over a few times clutching every muscle in his legs. Seriously, making excuses like that makes it worse.
Tell your players never to dive again Arsene. Fine them next time.

Fining them isn't enough as they are loaded. They need to be banned but clubs wont do this themselves.

brennaldo

eduardo should be banned from football

kippy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Maybe he did/will, most managers won't do that in public though.

What team do you support?

I support Galway United. (Its a pretty irrelevant question to be honest) I hate divers and moaners at any level of the game no matter who they play for. I didnt really have any interest in tonights match.

To be honest, if most managers did it in private it wouldn't be as big an issue as it appears to be at every level, so I dont buy that the players get told of in private for it either, especially when you essentially see the same guys at it.

If PL footballers get away with this kind of thing, it gets down to lower level football and even underage football. It has to be irradiated for the game along with other things.

OPENROAD

kippy wrote: »

I support Galway United. (Its a pretty irrelevant question to be honest) I hate divers and moaners at any level of the game no matter who they play for. I didnt really have any interest in tonights match.

To be honest, if most managers did it in private it wouldn't be as big an issue as it appears to be at every level, so I dont buy that the players get told of in private for it either, especially when you essentially see the same guys at it.

If PL footballers get away with this kind of thing, it gets down to lower level football and even underage football. It has to be irradiated for the game along with other things.

Well it kind of is relevant, I hate diving and the way it has crept into the game, most clubs have players who are guilty but you will never hear their supporters calling for bans on their own players, but they are very quick to take the high moral ground if the player is not from their own club.

kippy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Well it kind of is relevant, I hate diving and the way it has crept into the game, most clubs have players who are guilty but you will never hear their supporters calling for bans on their own players, but they are very quick to take the high moral ground if the player is not from their own club.

I supported Man United in the past.
Players diving, among many other things, is why I no longer call my self a supporter.

Headshot

Furious Celtic midfielder Massimo Donati last night claimed Eduardo should be BANNED after being caught up in a cheat storm.

Eduardo was accused of diving under Celtic keeper Artur Boruc’s challenge to win a first half penalty which the Arsenal striker converted.

That set up the Gunners’ convincing victory which puts them into today’s Champions League Group draw – but it left Celtic incensed.

And Italian Donati, who hit an injury time consolation, said: “If it’s clear on TV then UEFA must act and ban him. I think he should get a two-match ban. I told him and everyone on the Celtic team told him.”

very strong words by Donati

flahavaj

Headshot wrote: »

very strong words by Donati

Hes f*ckin dead right. Its the only way to stamp out this sh*t. Its the complete lack of balls on behalf of football's governing bodies that has allowed this cancer to fester in the game. A few high profile bans will soon have these guys thinking twice before they throw themselves to the ground. I don't even blame the players to be honest, not when their own fans cheer them raucously for converting a peno they quite blatantly cheated to win. Why wouldn't they do it if theres no consequences to their actions and everything to gain by doing it? I don't blame the refs either, it must be impossible to judge whos genuine these days when so many aren't. I DO blame the FIFA's and UEFA's who despite reams of video evidence being available, have repeatedly done nothing to punish these blatant cheats.:mad:

daniel91

Didn't get a chance to watch the match tonight, but just saw highlights and Eduardo's dive. Honestly it makes me feel sick watching him cheat like that. People talk about money destroying the game, no it's cheats like Eduardo thats ruining the game. Uefa have to act and shame him, they have to ban him!

Royale with Cheese

daniel91 wrote: »

Uefa have to act and shame him, they have to ban him!

They can't ban somebody for something that isn't a bannable offence. They'd need to change the rules first to say that diving can be retrospectivley punished with a banning.

cson

kippy wrote: »

If that were that case he didnt need to roll over a few times clutching every muscle in his legs.

He went to ground, looked around to see did he get the penalty. Maybe I missed the theatrics you're alluding to?

In any case; we got the benefit tonight. Happens at every level of the game and will continue to happen until progressive action is taken. Bear in mind with the pace the game is played at, at professional levels, it can be hard to differentiate between what is a dive and what is a genuine clattering. Players have gotten good at making the former look like the latter. In essence it's up to the players themselves as referee's cannot do it solely on their own. It's a thankless job. While we got the decision tonight, I can pretty much say for certain it'll even itself up over the course of the season. If Wayne Rooney dives on Saturday to win a penalty (I remember him doing Sol Campbell for one once ) I won't be on here clamouring for him to be banned. You win some you lose some. Like it or not its part of the game these days. Not that I condone it, I don't. Eduardo shouldn't be too proud of himself for resorting to such behaviour but I'm not gonna hang the lad out to dry when half the Premiership is at it.

kippy

cson wrote: »

He went to ground, looked around to see did he get the penalty. Maybe I missed the theatrics you're alluding to?

In any case; we got the benefit tonight. Happens at every level of the game and will continue to happen until progressive action is taken. Bear in mind with the pace the game is played at, at professional levels, it can be hard to differentiate between what is a dive and what is a genuine clattering. Players have gotten good at making the former look like the latter. In essence it's up to the players themselves as referee's cannot do it solely on their own. It's a thankless job. While we got the decision tonight, I can pretty much say for certain it'll even itself up over the course of the season. If Wayne Rooney dives on Saturday to win a penalty (I remember him doing Sol Campbell for one once ) I won't be on here clamouring for him to be banned. You win some you lose some. Like it or not its part of the game these days. Not that I condone it, I don't. Eduardo shouldn't be too proud of himself for resorting to such behaviour but I'm not gonna hang the lad out to dry when half the Premiership is at it.

Maybe I could have described it better. There were theatrics involved in the fall, moving his legs as if he was tripped, the flailing arms, either way he WAS NOT trying to avoid the keeper by making it appear as if he was jumping over it.
You see you attitude is part of the reason divers do it and get away with it. Do you really think it'll "even out" over the course of the season? Really? Do you could such events over the season? This is a play off game for champions league entry a game which wont happen again this season, no evening out there. You're not gonna hang him out to dry when half the PL is at it? Safety in numbers now is it? Part of the game? Fcuk it being part of the game. Do you like it being part of the game? Do you want to see you young lads diving all over the place down the park on a Sunday cos "its part of the game"?
No, they cant get a retrospective ban, as you rightly point out. But surely something will have to be done about it.

Mossy Monk

kippy wrote: »

If that were that case he didnt need to roll over a few times clutching every muscle in his legs. Seriously, making excuses like that makes it worse.
Tell your players never to dive again Arsene. Fine them next time.

What game were you watching?

Mitch Connor

What annoyed me about the dive last night is that it was needless, Arsenal didn't need a goal that badly, so it was cheating just cause he thought he would get away with it.

Also, Eduardo is a player I really liked, but i believe he will have sullied his reputation now and fans of other clubs will never look at him the same way. Disappointing to see.

Pal

"We have to fight it and there is only one way to punish people diving obviously: suspension." - Arsene Wenger 2006

Lets have it Arsene.
Suspend the cheat.
Or do you turn a blind eye to your own players ?

Mitch Connor

Pal wrote: »

"We have to fight it and there is only one way to punish people diving obviously: suspension." - Arsene Wenger 2006

Lets have it Arsene.
Suspend the cheat.
Or do you turn a blind eye to your own players ?

I doubt Wenger would fuss too much if there was a procedure in place to ban players for diving, and Eduardo was banned for his dive last night. But there is not, and Wenger is under no obligation to ban his own players for it (by simply not selecting them) to the detriment of his side in comparison to every other side in football.

I have no doubt Wenger will have words with Eduardo, as acts like that hurt the club on the field, long term, imo - they won't get a penalty they deserve at some point because of this.

kida

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What annoyed me about the dive last night is that it was needless, Arsenal didn't need a goal that badly, so it was cheating just cause he thought he would get away with it.

which prob is one of the reasons it was given

NukaCola

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What annoyed me about the dive last night is that it was needless

Exactly and then his celebration...over to the cameras, big smiles and high fives....disgraceful, he should defo get a ban, send a message out to all players, be a cheat? Get a ban!

Mossy Monk

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Exactly and then his celebration...over to the cameras, big smiles and high fives....disgraceful, he should defo get a ban, send a message out to all players, be a cheat? Get a ban!

It's not in the rules of the game that he should get a ban. So how is he going to be banned?

I look forward to seeing this level on condemnation when players from other clubs dive. Of course it wont probably happen.

NukaCola

Pal wrote: »

"We have to fight it and there is only one way to punish people diving obviously: suspension." - Arsene Wenger 2006

Lets have it Arsene.
Suspend the cheat.
Or do you turn a blind eye to your own players ?

Arsene Wenger "I believe really that it was not a penalty but I am also not sure that the keeper didn't touch him with his right knee, having seen it again''

:pac: His right knee, ffs....

NukaCola

Mossy Monk wrote: »

It's not in the rules of the game that he should get a ban. So how is he going to be banned?

I know, it should be brought in and he should get banned for cheating. Players do it all the time, it should be stamped out. Do you not agree? Do we accept that diving/cheating is part of the game or do we do something about it?

thorbarry

He dived, and i hate that he did... but nothing like this happens when the Liverpool captain does it, type in "gerrard dive" in youtube and you'll see lots of his dives, every player does it and the only way to get rid of it is to bring in video replays

PDN

kippy wrote: »

Do you really think it'll "even out" over the course of the season? Really?

No, it won't. Over the season I have no doubt that Chelsea (or rather Drogba) will win more fake penalties than Arsenal, Utd & Liverpool combined.

As an Arsenal fan I hate seeing diving - it's one of the reasons I don't like seeing Eboue wearing an Arsenal shirt (even though he can actually have the occasional good game like last night). Eduardo let himself and the club down last night. I'm just glad it didn't have any real bearing on the pretty one-sided result.

NukaCola

thorbarry wrote: »

He dived, and i hate that he did... but nothing like this happens when the Liverpool captain does it, type in "gerrard dive" in youtube and you'll see lots of his dives, every player does it and the only way to get rid of it is to bring in video replays

Lots of players do it, they do get singled out, how many times has ronaldo or drogba been singled out. ''Things like this'' always happens in high profile games and so it should be (People annoyed with diving that is) . It doesn't matter who does it, its cheating and its up to FIFA to try and stop it.

WillieCocker

PDN wrote: »

As an Arsenal fan I hate seeing diving - it's one of the reasons I don't like seeing Eboue wearing an Arsenal shirt (even though he can actually have the occasional good game like last night). Eduardo let himself and the club down last night. I'm just glad it didn't have any real bearing on the pretty one-sided result.

Eduardo seems to be very good friends with Eboue.........:D;)

thorbarry

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Lots of players do it, they do get singled out, how many times has ronaldo or drogba been singled out. ''Things like this'' always happens in high profile games and so it should be (People annoyed with diving that is) . It doesn't matter who does it, its cheating and its up to FIFA to try and stop it.

I agree that they should be trying to stop it, i just think cries for Eduardo to be banned is crazy, considering all the players that have done it before him. Don't get me wrong I absolutely hate diving and any form of cheating. Your totally right about Drogba and Ronaldo being singled out for diving. I just wish FIFA could come up with an effective way of getting rid of this stuff from the game

Mossy Monk

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Players do it all the time, it should be stamped out. Do you not agree? Do we accept that diving/cheating is part of the game or do we do something about it?

I agree completely but it is the hysterics after Eduardo did it is what gets me. As I said I look forward to these hysterics when other players take a dive.

thorbarry

Good stuff from the arseblogger

Now, regular readers will know I'm all for retrospective punishment. That if there's a way to punish a player for an obvious dive after the fact then it should be looked at. It would certainly act as a deterrent, because diving is something we should try and get rid of as much as possible. I've got some sympathy for the Celtic players because we've been on the receiving end of a dive more than once. Rooney's leap over Sol Campbell to end the Invincibles run at Old Trafford and Dirk Kuyt in the Champions League quarter-final spring to mind - both of them affected us far more than Eduardo's tumble did Celtic last night. Yet I didn't hear much in the way of criticism for those players.

So while I'll happily hold my hands up and admit Eduardo took a dive last night, and I'll agree with you that it's not nice to see, don't expect me to sit here and let the press and pundits go to town a man who does not deserve that kind of treatment. If we had won the tie 1-0 then maybe there's a point worth making. The fact is Arsenal scored five, might have scored at least a few more than that, Celtic had two shots on target over two games and Arsenal were more than good value for the win.

http://www.oleole.com/blogs/arseblog

Mitch Connor

thorbarry wrote: »

Good stuff from the arseblogger



http://www.oleole.com/blogs/arseblog

i don't agre with this bit:

the press and pundits go to town a man who does not deserve that kind of treatment

Why does he not deserve to be called a cheat and whatever else, it is exactly what he did last night. He will have a rep that he deserves because of that and he will have to work to repair that.

Mitch Connor

Mossy Monk wrote: »

I agree completely but it is the hysterics after Eduardo did it is what gets me. As I said I look forward to these hysterics when other players take a dive.

Are you pretending to be blind? Are you honestly saying you haven't seen the same kind of stuff said on here about Ronaldo and Gerrard?

thorbarry

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i don't agre with this bit:

the press and pundits go to town a man who does not deserve that kind of treatment

Why does he not deserve to be called a cheat and whatever else, it is exactly what he did last night. He will have a rep that he deserves because of that and he will have to work to repair that.

Rooney's leap over Sol Campbell to end the Invincibles run at Old Trafford and Dirk Kuyt in the Champions League quarter-final spring to mind - both of them affected us far more than Eduardo's tumble did Celtic last night. Yet I didn't hear much in the way of criticism for those players.

I think he is saying he does not deserve it to an extent because it has happened in many other games like the ones above, Rooney, Kuyt, and we didnt hear a thing about their dives after the games

kippy

Okay,
Let me make this clear.
1. Apologies to all you Arsenal fans. I dont care who it is that dives, if I see it happen i am peeved off. I am not trying to single out Eduardo to be hung. Obviously I dont have any power to have any player punished whether it be within the existing rules or not. I have just as little time for Setvie G, Wayne Rooney, Didier Drogba etc etc. It just happens that I was watching this portion of the game, enjoying it, then this happens. I'd be on any other match thread if it happened in that match too.
2. Obviously there are no rules there to restospectively ban players for this kind of thing. That doesnt make it right. The FA/PL/Clubs/Whoever HAVE to do something about that. Eduardo cant be banned etc, but a discussion can take place on implementing methods to ensure the practice is eradicated in future.
3. Whether or not it had any bearing on the result last night (which in my opinion is a moot point, as any goal has a bearing on the result) is irrelevant. We all know that these things have bearings on results.

Again, I really like to watch Arsenal as a footballing team. Their players dont need to resort to this type of behaviour because "everyone else is at it", "theres no punishment for it" or " he felt vulnerabe".

pipeliner

this will even itself out. Every premiership ref will see this incident and eduardos reputation for diving will increase. It will be the case of the boy who cried wolf and will get nothing for a genuine penalty claim

Wreck

The incident really has received far more attention than it deserves in comparison to other dives, at least as far as I can see. I don't want to defend someone for cheating, but I think people are being incredibly harsh on Eduardo - he has no history of this behaviour, so hopefully it's just a once-off. Players like Gerrard, Ronaldo and Drogba have a whole highlight reel of dives, and the media reaction is never as sensational as in this case.

Mitch Connor

pipeliner wrote: »

this will even itself out. Every premiership ref will see this incident and eduardos reputation for diving will increase. It will be the case of the boy who cried wolf and will get nothing for a genuine penalty claim

How does that help Celtic?

Mossy Monk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Are you pretending to be blind? Are you honestly saying you haven't seen the same kind of stuff said on here about Ronaldo and Gerrard?

To the level that we have in this thread? No. But do please enlighten me and I will put my hands up when you show me.

kippy

Wreck wrote: »

The incident really has received far more attention than it deserves in comparison to other dives, at least as far as I can see. I don't want to defend someone for cheating, but I think people are being incredibly harsh on Eduardo - he has no history of this behaviour, so hopefully it's just a once-off. Players like Gerrard, Ronaldo and Drogba have a whole highlight reel of dives, and the media reaction is never as sensational as in this case.

Maybe the media reaction is so big exactly because of that reason (he is not known for it). And Arsenal as a team are not generally known for cheating either.

Mossy Monk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

How does that help Celtic?

If Celtic had a hope of winning you could ask that but be honest with yourself.

Mitch Connor

Mossy Monk wrote: »

To the level that we have in this thread? No. But do please enlighten me and I will put my hands up when you show me.

if we are talking about stuff said on boards, as opposed to in the media, then i would certainly say Ronaldo and Gerrard have def received more abuse for their dives than Eduardo currently has.

Mitch Connor

Mossy Monk wrote: »

If Celtic had a hope of winning you could ask that but be honest with yourself.

If Celtic had scored first, it might have gone differently. That penalty last night completely killed off the tie.

Mossy Monk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If Celtic had scored first, it might have gone differently. That penalty last night completely killed off the tie.

Up until that point Celtic did nothing to even suggest they were going to threaten. They were spineless. You are the only person I have seen to even suggest that the penalty may have cost Celtic the tie.