New Restricted List SI 337 is now available

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Plenty of Gardai have personal firearms licenses - plenty of those are revolvers.

B'Man

Don't confuse individual Gardai with the organisation or the management. You may find that their views are extremely divergent.

Sparks

For the same firearms they use as service weapons B'man?

(Hey! Finally we find a case where we actually should call a firearm a weapon and who's the owner? The Gardai! Ha! Oh, the irony...)

foxhunter

Sparks wrote: »

And were they shooting them?
Long gap between wearing and shooting, and with the Garda range closed down and Gardai being refused licences for private training with their service firearms, I don't think there's much revolver shooting going on with our boys in blue!

(Besides, why would they keep using the old 38's when we just paid lots of money for them to all be issued with new Sigs?)

They deffinitly still carry the .38 I was only looking at one last saturday.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

For the same firearms they use as service weapons B'man?

(Hey! Finally we find a case where we actually should call a firearm a weapon and who's the owner? The Gardai! Ha! Oh, the irony...)

Well, do you not remember the ballistics guy who gave the presentation last year at the FCP conference?

Everything was a 'weapon'

And btw, B'man, it's the ballistics section that usually get to answer any queries on firearms within the Gardai. They're the guys who turn up in court all the time, even in cases where license refusals are being challenged.

Half-cocked

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone like to do the German hunting test?? 2 YEARS boys of classroom and field work before you get to even consider shooting anything.
Oh and BTW on your practical shoting skills for a hunter ,it is a score of 85% or better.HCAP has cogged the EASY bits from the German test BTW...:eek:
Not to mind about 8 grand of your money and at least 12 hours a week of your time on your reserve building tree stands,feeding deer,head counts etc..

Actualy, you can get your German hunting license by sitting a 2 week intensive course. Its frowned upon by the 'real' hunters but the bits of paper can't be told apart. Of course, this doesn't stop you cocking up in the field due to lack of experience as my German mates son in law found out after getting his 2 week yellow pack license! I hunt with German and Finnish friends twice a year in Northern Germany and they are appalled at the draconian laws hunters face over here.

It wasn't me!

rrpc wrote: »

Don't confuse individual Gardai with the organisation or the management. You may find that their views are extremely divergent.

Ha! I called my local district office recently about a new application and spoke to their firearms officer (not mine, just the one in the super's office) and got a good five minute rant about the new system, how it's a pain in the hole and nobody needs to fill out these nine pages of waffle just to own a gun. I had to stifle laughter for most of it.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Well, do you not remember the ballistics guy who gave the presentation last year at the FCP conference?
Everything was a 'weapon'

Yes, but he was wrong, whereas I'm right

(For the lurking public, Garda firearms are only meant to be fired at people; so they're nothing but weapons. Whereas ours are never, ever meant to be fired at people; so they're only weapons if we've committed a pretty serious crime. Hence the whole "we don't have weapons" thing...)

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

And were they shooting them?
Long gap between wearing and shooting, and with the Garda range closed down and Gardai being refused licences for private training with their service firearms, I don't think there's much revolver shooting going on with our boys in blue!

(Besides, why would they keep using the old 38's when we just paid lots of money for them to all be issued with new Sigs?)

In an urban area????While on PP duty???? Unless there was good reason to do so.IE armed scumbag attack.. NO! Thank God!:D

Maybe because that is what they were issued with???Personal carry choice maybe??[Very BAD choice INMHO for a PP detail these days].
Either which way...they were the boys in blue and they were revolvers!:P

Bananaman

Anyway - back to the real issue.

The current version of the restricted ensures that the vast majority of pistols licensed this time round will be restricted ones.

The vast majority of pistol disciplines are shot with 6 rounds. If people are only allowed to have 5 round magazines then this will require reloads mid-detail in order to complete it, e.g. where you have 20 seconds to fire 12 shots it will get tight, especially for the revolver shooters.

I just cannot belive that nobody went - hold on - revolvers hold 6 shots
(Unless you specifically request otherwise - bit like stick vs automatic cars)
So if we say 5 round magazines then we will have a mountain of work and paperwork ensuring that people have a plug in one chamber of their revolvers.

As plenty of people have said - most Gardai who have a firearms card have learned their trade with a 6 shot revolver.
Balllistics have been to loads of ranges over the years and have seen that 6 shot revolvers are quite common.
The FCP would know that the majority of pistol competitions are shot with 6 shot magazines or 6 shot revolvers.
If they had been asked for their opinion on a magazine limit it is far more believable that they would have said 6.

It's like someone says that they should set a new speed limit on cars to save lives and the NRA said 13.7 Kph.

WTF

B'Man

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FG/Labour....well,lets consider who started off this whole sorry mess in the first place....Deasy and Flannagan...

Just to clarify, both mentioned are FG. Deasy lit the fire to some extent. Flanagan tried to assist the shooting community somewhat, subsequently, out of embarrassment I'd imagine.


I think Labour did respond to the sporting shooting community well and fairly, they are sadly not in government at this time.


Credit where it's due and all that.

Grizzly 45

Half-cocked wrote: »

Actualy, you can get your German hunting license by sitting a 2 week intensive course. Its frowned upon by the 'real' hunters but the bits of paper can't be told apart.

Damn straight it is frowned upon! Those " [German slang for former East Germans]Ossi liscenses.Frowned would be a bit of an understatement.:eek:
More like downright hostility,to outright boycott.

Of course, this doesn't stop you cocking up in the field due to lack of experience as my German mates son in law found out after getting his 2 week yellow pack license!

Yup,wonder why those cram courses always advertise their "pass" rates??:eek:

I

hunt with German and Finnish friends twice a year in Northern Germany and they are appalled at the draconian laws hunters face over here.

My German friends/relatives are just gobsmacked on how easy it still is over here to get a gun ang hunting liscense,or what sort of daftness we come up with next.:o

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

The current version of the restricted ensures that the vast majority of pistols licensed this time round will be restricted ones.

Actually, I'm looking forward to seeing the stats on that one. (Unless by "this time round" you mean "this group of licences on Oct31", in which case, that's just a truism with little value).

The vast majority of pistol disciplines are shot with 6 rounds.

Again, you're only able to say that if you carefully restrict what you're talking about (in this case, you have to say "cartridge pistol shooting in Ireland with centerfire pistols").

If people are only allowed to have 5 round magazines then this will require reloads mid-detail in order to complete it, e.g. where you have 20 seconds to fire 12 shots it will get tight, especially for the revolver shooters.

So... you'd have to be better shooters?
Or are you saying you can't change the format of the match?

So if we say 5 round magazines then we will have a mountain of work and paperwork ensuring that people have a plug in one chamber of their revolvers.

Nope. None. Nada.
Look, if noone's going about inspecting shotguns for dowels, then where's the justification for inspecting revolvers for them?
"If caught breaking law, go to jail". That's the model. Not "Inspect people continually to ensure compliance with law without reason to suspect criminality".

The FCP would know that the majority of pistol competitions are shot with 6 shot magazines or 6 shot revolvers.

And do you think the SSAI rep on the FCP (who represents those pistol disciplines which use 6 shot magazines) did not say that?

Grizzly 45

Thnks for the heads up G17.Thought one was Labour.:o

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Anyway - back to the real issue.

I just cannot belive that nobody went - hold on - revolvers hold 6 shots
(Unless you specifically request otherwise - bit like stick vs automatic cars)
So if we say 5 round magazines then we will have a mountain of work and paperwork ensuring that people have a plug in one chamber of their revolvers.

Because the Minister said olympic only, the powers that be looked at that and said: "Oh look, they only use five rounds at a time in ISSF competition, so that's how we'll make sure that the Ministers word is law"

And you're right, the Gardai (at management level) don't want civilians having pistols, so this is the absolute minimum.

There's also going to be a list within the guidelines, so lets wait and see what that brings.

foxshooter243

There's also going to be a list within the guidelines, so lets wait and see what that brings.[/quote]

Any inkling on a timeframe on this?

rrpc

foxshooter243 wrote: »

Any inkling on a timeframe on this?

Imminent is a good word.

Presently is another

Any day now.....

daveob007

Speaking of those guidelines,,when exactly are they due out and whats in them??

just thinking about restricted handguns....if i want to change my 9mm 17 round g17 to a hammerli ex esse .22 10 round,concidering they are both restricted,,can i change back to a full bore again ????
was thinking about getting a .22 revolver also but if i do then i will have 2 restricted guns and my young lad who will be 14 next year and interested in shooting would not be able to use the .22 as training certs are only allowed for non restriced stuff.
very unfair and making it hard for young people to get into the sport.
Also can't really afford one of those expensive air pistols or 5 shot olympic .22s either,,was hoping to get something cheap to start with.
I could get a nice air pistol from the uk for a few hundred but no longer allowed to import one so would have to pay an irish dealer to import it for me at double the cost.
Where's the hope for young olympic hopefuls with that situation??/

BornToKill

+1 rrpc

Remember the announcement last November? It announced a general ban on handguns but noted:

'The Minister is prepared to make very limited exceptions in relation to Olympic sports only'.

Hence five rounds. I can't really see myself that just putting in a dowel or whatever will make any handgun eligible for a very limited exception. Can't wait to see this list but I'd be surprised if the list isn't pretty much the definitive statement of what handguns are not restricted.

Bananaman

Again, you're only able to say that if you carefully restrict what you're talking about (in this case, you have to say "cartridge pistol shooting in Ireland with centerfire pistols").

Always with the hair splitting

Are we not talking about .22 pistols, no?
Is that not what this SI limuts to 5 round magazines, no?
Are we not in Ireland?

I'm just saying that I go to a competition most weekends.
I go to more than one competiton some weekends.
I go to the range at least once a week besides.

The majority of the competitions I see people compete in or practice for
- rimfire or centrefire -
use 6 shots at a time
I am sure this was designed so in order to nor discriminate against revolvers.

I am sure there are disciplines that use 5 shot or use 10 shots per detail, however, I am saying that
on most pistol ranges,
at most competitions,
virtually every weekend,
countrywide,
there are smallbore competitions shot or practiced for
with 6 shot revolvers and 6 shot magazines.

I dunno about the ISSF disciplines as I m not involved but I seriously doubt that they have that level of .22 competition which would make the ones I am talking about 'the vast majority'

Or are you saying you can't change the format of the match?

These are competitions that are shot on an international level so the detail cannot be changed or else you are not practicing the actual sport.

Can you change the format of an ISSF match to use a 23 yard indoor range with flourescent lights?

And do you think the SSAI rep on the FCP (who represents those pistol disciplines which use 6 shot magazines) did not say that?

Just goes to show that they were either never consulted or ignored. So where did they get the alternative advise?

B'Man

johngalway

foxshooter243 wrote: »

There's also going to be a list within the guidelines, so lets wait and see what that brings.

Any inkling on a timeframe on this?[/QUOTE]

Ara sure what's your hurry, it's only an integral part of the application process, not like it's important.

Now, what we do with them lost cat reports...

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

The majority of the competitions I see people compete in or practice for
- rimfire or centrefire -
use 6 shots at a time
I am sure this was designed so in order to nor discriminate against revolvers.

I fail to see how basing a competition format on one, two, three, four or five shots is discriminating against six shot firearms.

Just goes to show that they were either never consulted or ignored. So where did they get the alternative advise?

B'Man

From you presumably B'man. Assuming that your advice was asked.

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

Speaking of those guidelines,,when exactly are they due out

Real Soon Now (tm).

And I'm told there's 35 pages in there, so it'll be a bit of a read.

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

if i want to change my 9mm 17 round g17 to a hammerli ex esse .22 10 round,concidering they are both restricted,,can i change back to a full bore again ?

In short, no.
The licences for the fullbores out there are it, basicly. And it's not even clear if they'll be renewed. Getting in new licences for fullbores is a long-term nontrivial project.

was thinking about getting a .22 revolver also but if i do then i will have 2 restricted guns

So get a .22 pistol instead.

Also can't really afford one of those expensive air pistols

You can't afford 250 euro?

or 5 shot olympic .22s either,,was hoping to get something cheap to start with.

Baikals are nice and cheap; 400-500 euro or so from egun.de

I could get a nice air pistol from the uk for a few hundred but no longer allowed to import one

The personal import ban was not commenced, so import away.

Bananaman wrote: »

Always with the hair splitting

How is it hair splitting to point out that the claims you're making have no figures to back them up? They might be right, but they might also be wrong. I mean, have you taken into account all the air pistol shooting the pony club do? Have you seen how big their matches are? And those are single-shot air pistols, not 6-shot centerfire pistols.
I think the official stats when they're finally accurate, may well contain some unexpected information.

The majority of the competitions I see

See, that's the thing. If I go to poodle shows every week, I might think the most common dog in Ireland was a poodle. But that wouldn't make me right.

Just goes to show that they were either never consulted or ignored. So where did they get the alternative advise?

See, once again I feel like mentioning the point that the Gardai sit on the FCP and that there's a close working relationship between the Minister and the Commissioner...

G17

rrpc wrote: »

Imminent is a good word.
Presently is another
Any day now.....

Now?

Sparks wrote: »

Real Soon Now (tm).
And I'm told there's 35 pages in there, so it'll be a bit of a read.

Now?
You have to read it, aaawwwwwwwwww?!

Sparks

Are we there yet?

G17

On a heavier note, let's hope it answers more questions than it raises, when it does, eventually, finally, arrive.

Rovi

The longer and longer this thing gets delayed makes me more and more deeply suspicious that it'll be dripping with Tipp-Ex when it does finally see the light of day, and it'll be us firearms owners and the unfortunate front desk Gardai who'll be beta-testing it in the real world.

Sparks

Beta-testing, I could live with.
But I think we'll be getting v1.0 without a bug submission form...

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

In short, no.
The licences for the fullbores out there are it, basicly. And it's not even clear if they'll be renewed. Getting in new licences for fullbores is a long-term nontrivial project.So get a .22 pistol instead.You can't afford 250 euro?Baikals are nice and cheap; did'nt know i could get 1 that cheap/was looking on the net and saw some for 1200 euro and more 400-500 euro or so from egun.deThe personal import ban was not commenced, so import away.How is it hair splitting to point out that the claims you're making have no figures to back them up? They might be right, but they might also be wrong. I mean, have you taken into account all the air pistol shooting the pony club do? Have you seen how big their matches are? And those are single-shot air pistols, not 6-shot centerfire pistols.
I think the official stats when they're finally accurate, may well contain some unexpected information.See, that's the thing. If I go to poodle shows every week, I might think the most common dog in Ireland was a poodle. But that wouldn't make me right.See, once again I feel like mentioning the point that the Gardai sit on the FCP and that there's a close working relationship between the Minister and the Commissioner...

thanks for that,,,250 is no hassle or even 500 for that matter/i thought i would have to pay well over 1k for one.
if i give up the 9mm thts it never again get one either,,,think i will keep it

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

thanks for that,,,250 is no hassle or even 500 for that matter/i thought i would have to pay well over 1k for one.

If you get a top-of-the-line one brand new, you'll be paying over 2k. But there are cheaper options. And if you buy second-hand, there are even more options available.