New Restricted List SI 337 is now available

DMZ

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, I'm looking forward to seeing the stats on that one. (Unless by "this time round" you mean "this group of licences on Oct31", in which case, that's just a truism with little value).

Again, you're only able to say that if you carefully restrict what you're talking about (in this case, you have to say "cartridge pistol shooting in Ireland with centerfire pistols").


So... you'd have to be better shooters?
Or are you saying you can't change the format of the match?


Nope. None. Nada.
Look, if noone's going about inspecting shotguns for dowels, then where's the justification for inspecting revolvers for them?
"If caught breaking law, go to jail". That's the model. Not "Inspect people continually to ensure compliance with law without reason to suspect criminality".
And do you think the SSAI rep on the FCP (who represents those pistol disciplines which use 6 shot magazines) did not say that?

For your information the SSAI recommendation for non restricted .22 firearms had a 5 round limit in the proposal. For clarification why not ask the SSAI to publish their actual proposal, it will go something like this.

".22 pistols
Barrell length 10 Cm
Magazine capacity 5"

If the people representing the sport technically to the DOJ makes these recommendations while knowing full well the impact on the current competitions I am afraid we are all lost. To me it doesn't matter a toss if a .22 is restricted or non restriced fee is the same, the only issue is that clubs cannot hold restricted firearms as club guns, this is the main issue.

Also of all the "Olympic Style" 5 shot pistols out there, the capacity is determined by the magazine capacity, what is to stop one sourcing a 10 shot mag and reeking havoc ,,,,,,,,,,,,its a joke, I would break my sides laughing if it were not so serious.

What happens if you have two 5 shot mags now you have a capacity of 10, doesn't take much to learn to exchange mags quickly so what’s the difference between a .22 pistol having one ten shot mag or two five shot mags........Give me a break. Madness, ineffectiveness and to what end, to continue to punish the citizens of this country who abide by the legislation of the country.

The criminals have more freedom don't see them worrying about the magazine capacity, they do not pay crazy licence fees, pay no VAT on their firearms, they do not need monitored alarms backed up by GSM to alert the Gardai who will hardly be bothered attending the alarm in case they actually catch someone in the act.

Got to stop now:

Tally to date 2009:

New Gun safe €1500
Update alarm: €1326
Monitoring increase from €140 to €360/annum
Licence fees €800
No certainty in getting the restricted firearms relicensed.
Kids with Training certs cannot use .22 pistols because they are restricted.
10 page applications to complete
Sponsors to be approached
Permission to allow Medical Records investigated
First born son sacrificed

All for a few shots at the weekend!

Sparks

DMZ,
What SSAI submission?

rrpc

DMZ wrote: »

Tally to date 2009:

New Gun safe €1500
Update alarm: €1326
Monitoring increase from €140 to €360/annum
Licence fees €800
No certainty in getting the restricted firearms relicensed.
Kids with Training certs cannot use .22 pistols because they are restricted.
10 page applications to complete
Sponsors to be approached
Permission to allow Medical Records investigated
First born son sacrificed

All for a few shots at the weekend!

To be fair, that's a frightening list when put like that.

Kids can use unrestricted .22's and air pistols and to be honest I'd much prefer they started on air pistols because of the better learning curve it provides against cost.

The only real issue I have is that there seems to be nowhere on the form for club firearms to be used on a training cert.

And the application is only six pages for the applicant, but for you it looks like 60 pages :eek:

fat-tony

DMZ wrote: »

For your information the SSAI recommendation for non restricted .22 firearms had a 5 round limit in the proposal. For clarification why not ask the SSAI to publish their actual proposal, it will go something like this.

".22 pistols
Barrell length 10 Cm
Magazine capacity 5"

Struggling a bit with this one DMZ. Most of the PPC comps (the ones that B'man has been talking about anyway!) require 6 rounds in the mag. Why in the name of all that's holy would the umbrella group for non-NTSA pistol sports be recommending a limit of 5 rounds in the mag Are the NTSA not tricky-dicky enough with the Minister to have another group recommending a 5 round limit.... get real:rolleyes:

rrpc

fat-tony wrote: »

Struggling a bit with this one DMZ. Most of the PPC comps (the ones that B'man has been talking about anyway!) require 6 rounds in the mag. Why in the name of all that's holy would the umbrella group for non-NTSA pistol sports be recommending a limit of 5 rounds in the mag Are the NTSA not tricky-dicky enough with the Minister to have another group recommending a 5 round limit.... get real:rolleyes:

I know what happened, the SSAI had the Minister out the night after us and he got all confused......

Scalachi

Just to clarify what was submitted:

In the NASRPC Original submission:

Barrel Length: Min 5 inches.
Sights: Adjustable rear sights (windage and elevation).
Magazine Capacity / Cylinder Capacity: 10
Calibre: 0.32 –0.454

In the SSAI Submission:

1. Barrel Length – Minimum 4.5”.
2. Overall Length – Minimum 8”.
3. Max (with modification if required) Magazine / Cylinder Capacity – 6 shots.
4. Trigger Weight – Adjustable
5. Sight Type – Adjustable rear sights (Windage & Elevation).

G17

Scalachi wrote: »

Just to clarify what was submitted:

In the NASRPC Original submission:

Barrel Length: Min 5 inches.
Sights: Adjustable rear sights (windage and elevation).
Magazine Capacity / Cylinder Capacity: 10
Calibre: 0.32 –0.454

In the SSAI Submission:

1. Barrel Length – Minimum 4.5”.
2. Overall Length – Minimum 6”.
3. Max (with modification if required) Magazine / Cylinder Capacity – 6 shots.
4. Trigger Weight – Adjustable
5. Sight Type – Adjustable rear sights (Windage & Elevation).

Thanks for posting, that should put several theories to bed.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

I fail to see how basing a competition format on one, two, three, four or five shots is discriminating against six shot firearms.

Have you ever tried loading a 6 shot revolver with a speed loader containing less than 6 shots and ensuring the last empty is under the hammer? Under competition pressure?
Anyway it's would be a bit like putting on the right wellies in a field of wellies while wearing a blindfold - I'm sure you'll get it in the end but everyone else will be gone by then.

The 6 is FROM revolvers, the fact that the other actions are LIMITED to 6, seeing as they have greater capacity, is to provide parity and not discriminate against the revolvers which can then compete in the same competition.

As it turns out a revolver is a far better firearm for precision and with parity on load count count the SA is at a distinct disadvantage being in the same competition as a revolver.

Just go watch any competition any weekend. Hence the WA1500 have seerate disciplines for revolver and SA - all with 6 rounds loaded - to not put the SA at a disadvantage.

Alternatively, In primarily time based, rather than primarily precision based competitions, where the load count is not restricted the revolver would be at a distinct disadvantage so there are seperate classifications also.

B'Man

lordarpad

Hi guys

I am not sure I am fully understanding what is being discussed here. 2 questions:

1) full bore moderators. I understand that they were on the restricted list before and are now off it. How does this affect negotiations with your local super? You'll still have to convince him either way, no?

2) imports: that has not been commenced, so it is in the law but not actually in power? Does this also apply to ammo?

thanks

rowa

its also a pity that instead of using bore size or calibre to limit rifles that an upper muzzle energy figure wasn't used , this would have allowed the use of pistol calibre rifles for things like gallery etc , or are these types of rifle now banned because of being lever/pump actioned ?

i fancied buying, if i could find one a bsa martini in .310 , this is a fairly low powered cartridge but banned because its over the maximum by 2 thousands of an inch ,absolutely stupid .

Sparks

lordarpad wrote: »

1) full bore moderators. I understand that they were on the restricted list before and are now off it. How does this affect negotiations with your local super? You'll still have to convince him either way, no?

Yes; but before now, you had to talk to the Commissioners office about a fullbore mod, according to the law (I wonder how many Supers missed that and issued authorisation letters for fullbore mods - which they didn't have the authority to do?).

2) imports: that has not been commenced, so it is in the law but not actually in power? Does this also apply to ammo?

Erm... in effect, yes and yes. (Technically, it's not in the law because it was an amendment instead of a new section, but that's really splitting hairs).

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

i fancied buying, if i could find one a bsa martini in .310 , this is a fairly low powered cartridge but banned because its over the maximum by 2 thousands of an inch ,absolutely stupid .

What do you mean banned?
It's not banned, just restricted. Get a safe and away you go.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

What do you mean banned?
It's not banned, just restricted. Get a safe and away you go.

i lready have a safe , i don't fancy having to explain to some copper with a blank look on his face why i want it and what it is :rolleyes:

Sparks

But that's not how it works rowa - you just write down what you're going to use it for on the form and it goes up the chain to the chief super, who has the FPU in his rolodex if he's digging into it. You want to shoot a .310 for a specific reason, you list that reason and that's all there is to it from the application end of things.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

But that's not how it works rowa - you just write down what you're going to use it for on the form and it goes up the chain to the chief super, who has the FPU in his rolodex if he's digging into it. You want to shoot a .310 for a specific reason, you list that reason and that's all there is to it from the application end of things.

i'll bet what the chief super has in his rolodex is the word "NO" , the gardai know that the shooting community is on the back foot now and no shooting organisation is going to take court cases as happened with the gunsafes / pistols / rifles over .270.

Sparks

So bet. It's free, after all.

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

So bet. It's free, after all.

Sounds like you know something your itchin' to tell

Sparks

No 4, I just mean that rowa has a safe and all the security stuff he'd need for a restricted rifle like that; and you don't pay to file an application until it's granted; so find a rifle with a dealer who'd refund your deposit if the licence is denied (and I'd love to see what would happen to one who wouldn't if the NCA found out) and submit the application. If it works, he gets what he wants; if not, he's lost nothing.

rowa

i have 5 guns i use now sparks and i don't want a sixth because that would mean a monitored alarm and i spend enough money on shooting as it is ,

xesse

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think the magazine size restriction scuppers anything actually.
Got a semi-auto with a 10-round mag and don't want it restricted? Crimp the magazine. Revolver with 6-shot or more capacity? Plug the spare slots with dowels. If it's good enough for a shotgun...

yea and the only competition you can shoot is issf stuff
GREAT!

rrpc

xesse wrote: »

yea and the only competition you can shoot is issf stuff
GREAT!

Benchrest pistol too

Sparks

Or, in fact, any other pistol discipline that's both not barred (which basicly just means IPSC and IDPA shooting) and which can use those pistols.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

Or, in fact, any other pistol discipline that's both not barred (which basicly just means IPSC and IDPA shooting) and which can use those pistols.

and steel matches ?

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Or, in fact, any other pistol discipline that's both not barred (which basicly just means IPSC and IDPA shooting) and which can use those pistols.

There was never IPDA in Ireland - it only exits in the USA and wherever the US army is posted e.g. Iraq and Afgahnistan so it is disingenuous to associate it with IPSC

Put out your hand and say you're sorry.

B'Man

Bananaman

rowa wrote: »

and steel matches ?

Steel targets are not a problem - they must be made properly, heavy enough not be dimpled by the round used and angled slightly downwards so that the round will fall down on impact.

Propably not a good idea to use .22 against steel as it is not heavy enough to destroy the round on impact. .38, 9mm, .40 etc. will all flatten temselves and drop to the ground on impact.

Rowa, plenty of clubs the length and breadth of the counrty use steel targets due to our climate. As I am sure you are aware a paper target will collapse when wet.

B'Man

Liam Good

Bananaman wrote: »

Propably not a good idea to use .22 against steel as it is not heavy enough to destroy the round on impact. .38, 9mm, .40 etc. will all flatten temselves and drop to the ground on impact.



B'Man

Steel Challenge
Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Who won the first World Speed Shooting title?
A: The first Steel Challenge was won in 1981 by John Shaw from Memphis.

Q: What’s the basic format of the Challenge?
A: The simple Steel Challenge format of five big steel targets variously arranged in different stages with shooting distances from 7 to 35 yards has remained unchanged since the 1982 match.

Q: What are the eight stages shot in the Steel Challenge?
A: The eight stages of the Steel Challenge are Pendulum, Roundabout, Showdown, Five To Go, Speed Option, Smoke & Hope, Outer Limits and Accelerator.

Q: When was the eighth stage, Accelerator, introduced?
A: Accelerator was added as a new stage in 2006 and expanded the match to eight stages.

Q: When was the Pendulum stage introduced?
A: Pendulum was introduced in 2004 replacing the Flying M stage.

Q: How is the match scored?
A: Competitors are timed electronically, from their draw in reaction to the audible start signal to their last shot on each string of fire. The competitor’s fastest four times out of five attempts on each stage (three out of four on Outer Limits) are added together for an aggregate score. The lowest total score for all eight stages in each division wins.

Q: How fast do the competitors shoot?
A: The fastest times are shot by Open Division competitors, with winning times hovering around the 79 second mark. That’s a minute and 20 seconds to draw a lightened, scoped and compensated custom race gun 31 times and hit a total of 155 targets across eight different courses of fire from 7 to 35 yards. Add some extra miss-recovery shots, and the top gun racers are actually shooting more than three accurate shots per second.

Q: What is the single fastest recorded run?
A: In 2004 K.C. Eusebio ran Smoke & Hope in 1.71 seconds.

Q: Who holds the most world records?
A: K.C. Eusebio and Max Michel, both of the Army Marksmanship Unit, hold three world records. BJ Norris holds the other two. Eusebio holds world records on Pendulum, Roundabout and Smoke & Hope. Michel holds the world record on Five To Go, Speed Option and Accelerator. Norris owns the records for Showdown and Outer Limits.

Q: How many rounds are fired during the Steel Challenge?
A: At least a quarter of a million rounds will be fired during Steel Challenge Week. About 65,000 rounds will be fired by competitors in the match itself. Additionally, most shooters bring extra ammunition, typically shooting three to ten rounds on the practice range for every one they shoot for score.

Q: Is there prize money for the winners?
A: The Steel Challenge is the richest Pro-Am pistol shooting match in the world, with over $390,000 in cash and merchandise prizes awarded in 2007. The overall winner receives a check for $5,000 in addition to stage money and other prizes.

Q: How would one characterize the sport of steel shooting?
A: Think of it as gun racing against the clock, much like track and field sprints.

Q: What kind of guns are used?
A: The Steel Challenge recognizes divisions for many different types of handguns, and also hosts a shotgun event. Open Division is the fastest, like Formula One is to auto racing. Highly customized, specialized pistols with electronic sights and recoil compensators are legal in Open. Limited is analogous to NASCAR, with rules restricting modifications to production pistols. There are also divisions for modern revolvers, stock police-type pistols, .22 rimfire and even single-action Cowboy guns. If it’s a handgun, the Steel Challenge has a division for hit.

Q: What calibers are used?
A: To create a level playing field, 9mm /.38 Special is the minimum caliber permitted for all divisions except for the .22 rimfire events.

Q: How many competitors will attend the match?
A: Over 220 shooters from the United States and other countries will compete in the 2008 Steel Challenge.

Q: How popular is steel shooting nationwide?
A: Shooting sports in general are growing in popularity. As the Steel Challenge emerged as the most lucrative shooting match in the world with a purse of over $390,000 in cash and prizes, the interest in shooting steel has grown with clubs and ranges around the country adding steel targets at their facilities. Several companies specialize in steel target systems for shooting ranges providing shooters and ranges with a greater variety of products.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

There was never IPDA in Ireland - it only exits in the USA and wherever the US army is posted e.g. Iraq and Afgahnistan so it is disingenuous to associate it with IPSC

Who's associating it with IPSC?
I said "any pistol discipline that's not banned". Only "practical shooting" is banned, and with the definition they use for that, that means both IPSC and IDPA shooting is banned.

Feck's sake B'man, that's like getting annoyed because both cars and vans have four wheels...

Bananaman

Who's associating it with IPSC?

You did, by putting the two in the same sentence which insinuated that they were both banned as they are the same. Simply untrue. Ireland had International Competitors in IPSC --- IPDA is a USA only sport and was never in Ireland.

Like Air Pistol and Olympic Air pistol - nothing in common expect they are both firearms based sports but by putting them in the sentence you insinuate that there may be someone in Ireland who shoots Air Pistol who is also in the running for the Olympics.
Simply untrue - plenty of people in Ireland have Air Pistols but none of them have been iwithin an asses roar of the Olympics.

Sorry if I read you wrong - I thought you were just providing tose who know no better with a google search criteria which is misleading in order to stir the sh1t

My bad.

As IPDA never took place in Ireland and nobody had any intention of ever taking part in it, I could see not other reason for you to mention it.

If on the other hand you were simply listing firearms related activities which are banned in Ireland but never took place here be sure to include some of the others such as

Elephant Hunting
Elephant Based Tiger Hunting,
Helicopter based Camel Hunting
etc.

B'Man

Sparks

Seriously? Mentioning two things in the same sentence as part of a list of by-definition discrete activities is association?

Don't you think that's a rather desperately insecure form of paranoia?

(And we've had an air pistol shooter make it to the World Cups before; give us time and we'll get back there. We're within a few points of it at the moment. And in case you've not noticed, the international ISSF circuit isn't a cakewalk.)

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

You did, by putting the two in the same sentence which insinuated that they were both banned as they are the same. Simply untrue. Ireland had International Competitors in IPSC --- IPDA is a USA only sport and was never in Ireland.

Sorry if I read you wrong - I thought you were just providing tose who know no better with a google search criteria which is misleading in order to stir the sh1t

Never one to resist temptation especially as B'Man has already blamed me for the internet , I did a quick google and found this: https://secure.ipda.org/ - The International Periodical Distributors Association

There was also
The International Professional Development Association
The International Planetary Data Alliance and
The Internet Philatelic Dealers Association
If there's an 'i' in it, then Apple won't be far behind and sure enough they've invented the iPDA

But no connection with IPSC, Bananaman is perfectly correct.

However......

The IDPA is The International Defensive Pistol Association and there's also the International Dart Players Association, both target sports of a kind . Assuming Sparks is talking about the former, they claim to be represented in 36 countries world wide.

I saw this on their web page: The 1st Law of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!

Sounds like an instruction to always leave your gun loaded :eek: