Can you overcome depression without the use of medication?

santana75

Can Cognitive and Behavioral techniques(CBT) do the job by themselves? It seems so bizarre and unatural to take pills to feel ok, it cant be good or beneficial. Im not talking about the very rare cases in which theres a chemical malfunction in the brain from birth. Im talking about physiologically healthy people popping pills to be happy. I mean depression is a result of negative thinking so why would you take a pill to fix that? It makes sense to cure the depression by sorting out your negative thinking. If you just take pills how can you ever hope to tackle the root cause of the problem? Thats why I think theyre harmful(apart from the side-effects). I know people who have taken them and they never get to the root cause of their depression, they just pop the pills and grind on from day to day, never learning anything.
I just dont get the pill thing. Is it people being lazy and not wanting to put the CBT work in?
Anyway what do people think, are anti-depressants really necessary or are they just harmful?
Thanks

Pete4779

santana75 wrote: »

Can Cognitive and Behavioral techniques(CBT) do the job by themselves? It seems so bizarre and unatural to take pills to feel ok, it cant be good or beneficial. Im not talking about the very rare cases in which theres a chemical malfunction in the brain from birth. Im talking about physiologically healthy people popping pills to be happy. I mean depression is a result of negative thinking so why would you take a pill to fix that? It makes sense to cure the depression by sorting out your negative thinking. If you just take pills how can you ever hope to tackle the root cause of the problem? Thats why I think theyre harmful(apart from the side-effects). I know people who have taken them and they never get to the root cause of their depression, they just pop the pills and grind on from day to day, never learning anything.
I just dont get the pill thing. Is it people being lazy and not wanting to put the CBT work in?
Anyway what do people think, are anti-depressants really necessary or are they just harmful?
Thanks

I think a lot of research has shown that "physiologically healthy" doesn't also include "neurologically healthy". You take insulin to stop dying from diabetes - yet it's so unnatural to take an injection everyday just to live. 100 years ago you would have people warding off the evil spirits that were causing the hypoglycaemic coma. Negative thinking isn't a cause of depression; if you look at it like this: you speak because your brain has already setup the pathway to produce the muscle movements, etc., everything already. What comes out is simply the bits after your brain has already put the processes into action. To use a very very simple but old example, if you deplete the brain's serotonin, you get depression (or negative thinking as you indicated).

You are also setting up the goalposts pretty strictly: antidepressants are really necessary in moderate and severe depression as they have the highest chance of symptom remission. They are not any more harmful than inappropriate CBT or psychotherapy in other conditions.

santana75

Pete4779 wrote: »

I think a lot of research has shown that "physiologically healthy" doesn't also include "neurologically healthy". You take insulin to stop dying from diabetes - yet it's so unnatural to take an injection everyday just to live.

Agree.

Pete4779 wrote: »

Negative thinking isn't a cause of depression; if you look at it like this: you speak because your brain has already setup the pathway to produce the muscle movements, etc., everything already. What comes out is simply the bits after your brain has already put the processes into action. To use a very very simple but old example, if you deplete the brain's serotonin, you get depression (or negative thinking as you indicated).

(Respectfully) Disagree.

Thoughts come first then feelings. You think a thought then you feel as a consequence of this thought. How you think is determined by past experiences not the level of seotonin in your brain. By your reasoning people are born depressed and I just dont buy that.

JuliusCaesar

Yes. Most people recover from depression without any intervention, ie spontaneously.

I'll respond to the 'thoughts or feelings first' later....

Valmont

Although SSRI drugs have demonstrated some efficacy in treating depression, there has been no empirical support to suggest that a serotonin deficiency is the root cause of clinical depression.

To provide the efficacy of SSRIs in treating depression as evidence for the serotonic hypothesis is backwards reasoning and not very logical.

If you take aspirin for a headache, does that mean your headache is caused by an aspirin deficiency?

This reasoning isn't my own, it was all contained in a great article Gibs posted last week in the Richard Bentall thread.

Doghouse

santana75 wrote: »

Can Cognitive and Behavioral techniques(CBT) do the job by themselves? It seems so bizarre and unatural to take pills to feel ok, it cant be good or beneficial. Im not talking about the very rare cases in which theres a chemical malfunction in the brain from birth.

Bit confused by this. Chemical malfunction from birth? Are you talking about people with non-reactive depression? If so for one thing there's no proof that the physiological reasons for their depression were present from birth and for another, it's far from rare.

Im talking about physiologically healthy people popping pills to be happy. I mean depression is a result of negative thinking so why would you take a pill to fix that? It makes sense to cure the depression by sorting out your negative thinking.

Why do you say depression is caused by negative thinking? Negative thinking can lead to depression but many would argue that negative thinking is actually caused by depression. I'm not aware that there's been a definitive answer to this.

If you just take pills how can you ever hope to tackle the root cause of the problem? Thats why I think theyre harmful(apart from the side-effects). I know people who have taken them and they never get to the root cause of their depression, they just pop the pills and grind on from day to day, never learning anything.
I just dont get the pill thing. Is it people being lazy and not wanting to put the CBT work in?
Anyway what do people think, are anti-depressants really necessary or are they just harmful?
Thanks

Similar to what I said above, again you're presuming that the root cause of depression is your thoughts as you experience them and not their physiological underpinnings. What if it's the misfiring of synapses that's causing you to have these thoughts? Then to sort out the root cause you need to sort out the physical problem. Are you familiar with the idea of synaptic plasticity? If so you'll know that connections between synapses can be strengthened or weakened, thereby affecting behaviour, for example in memory formation. If you consider how that would relate to depression, then changing patterns of thinking through CBT could conceivably change how neurons in the brain relate to each other, thereby changing the physiological circuits that have resulted in depression. Something like CBT can also help you deal with negative thoughts and feelings that you might have. It's not curing the problem but it's changing how you perceive it and therefore, hopefully, making it easier to cope with. Eventually, with reduced stress, better understanding and a more positive attitude towards what you're experiencing, the depressive symptoms should be more manageable. As Julius Caesar says, depression usually seems to remit spontaneously but it's impossible to tell when this will happen and for some people this doesn't happen for a long time. Both medication and talk-based therapies exist to treat the illness.

Anti-depressants (or other forms of medication) will be necessary for some people as the symptoms are too severe to be manageable on their own, and the depression will be having a majorly adverse effect on their quality of life, for instance if they can't socialise, eat, sleep, speak etc. Or they may be a danger to themselves i.e. suicide risk, DSH. CBT doesn't work for some people. Also there seems to be different kinds of depression, some which can be ameliorated through therapies like CBT, some that respond better to different medications (with results varying by type) and some that seem to respond to very little unfortunately. So if someone is taking medication it's not because they're "lazy".

I would advise doing some research into current theories of the causes of depression before generalising so much about how people should be treated for it (and not just theories from the anti-psychiatry lot - I'd advise looking in neuroscientific books or journals for one thing).


Also, as a matter of interest, do you accept that moods can be influenced by hormones e.g. PMT?

drinkfeck

Medication did nothing for me. Apparently it's hit and miss to try and find the right one, and there are lots of them!
Eckhart Tolle's book, 'A new earth' is what worked for me. I would recommend it to anyone, not just depressed people, but to anyone that wants to understand thoughts, emotions, life, love and the pursuit of happiness!

sachamama

Pete4779 wrote: »

(Antidepressants) They are not any more harmful than inappropriate CBT or psychotherapy in other conditions.

I'm sorry I disagree with this. Suicidal behaviour can be a side effect of anti-depressants and if the person taking them is severely depressed they may own the suicidal thoughts as their own, rather than taking them to be a side effect of the medication. And they may act on them.

inappropriate CBT doesn't put suicidal thoughts into someone's head as a side effect, if depressed people do have suicidal thoughts as a result of CBT they are probably as a result of internal factors and need to be dealt with accordingly.

eth0_

The simple answer is: it completely depends on the individual.

JuliusCaesar

drinkfeck wrote: »

Eckhart Tolle's book, 'A new earth' is what worked for me. I would recommend it to anyone, not just depressed people, but to anyone that wants to understand thoughts, emotions, life, love and the pursuit of happiness!

Tolle's work is similar to Mindfulness, which is used both in CBT and in ACT. There are a few different variations of Mindfulness going around, including Attention Training.

firesidechat

@santana 75.
I'm really glad you posted here and hopefully you will learn a bit about the subject, it's so obvious by you'r opening post that you are very misguided on the subject of depression.
NEVER referr to someone who is on antidepressants as lazy..If someone is on antid's it is because a doctor subcribed them.Low self esteem is one of the biggest battle deppies have to live with and you calling them lazy does not help.
Depression is caused by a wide variety of curcumstances.
It may be a chemical inbalance .
Brought on by increased anxiety.
After affects from unhappy childhood.
Results of an accident.
There are many instance's that may bring on depression.
Some forms of depression may be releived by a few visits to a counsellor.
Other's may require hospitalisation ,counselling and medication.
Antidepressents are not a proven science.A patient may try many different forms of antid's before they find the one that works for them.
This may require weeks or months before the required affects are found.
Sometimes all that is required for treatement of mild depression is a change of lifestyle and diet.Exercise is very important,as is eating a healthy diet.Avoiding sugars and caffiene.a good sleep pattern is very critical to recovery.And most of all would be interaction with other people.
The key to recovery is EDUCATION, knowing what the triggers are and been able to counteract them.
Now ..with severe depression all the exercise,good diet,and positive thinking in the world will not on it's own lessen the effects of depression.
This is where medication is required.
Medication will do about 20% of the work ,The rest must come from within.It can be very frustrating when one is doing all the required actions and taking their medication but yet the required goal is so far away.
Also remember that patients wear many masks.....They may put on a happy face for you'r benefit but deep inside they are in turmoil.
Every case of depression is different from the other.The end result can be devastation,That's why we must remove the stygma that is perceived with depression and not look upon those who require medication as weak or lazy.

drinkfeck

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Tolle's work is similar to Mindfulness, which is used both in CBT and in ACT. There are a few different variations of Mindfulness going around, including Attention Training.

Whatever it is, it works!

santana75

Doghouse wrote: »

Why do you say depression is caused by negative thinking? Negative thinking can lead to depression but many would argue that negative thinking is actually caused by depression. I'm not aware that there's been a definitive answer to this.



Similar to what I said above, again you're presuming that the root cause of depression is your thoughts as you experience them and not their physiological underpinnings. What if it's the misfiring of synapses that's causing you to have these thoughts? Then to sort out the root cause you need to sort out the physical problem. Are you familiar with the idea of synaptic plasticity? If so you'll know that connections between synapses can be strengthened or weakened, thereby affecting behaviour, for example in memory formation. If you consider how that would relate to depression, then changing patterns of thinking through CBT could conceivably change how neurons in the brain relate to each other, thereby changing the physiological circuits that have resulted in depression. Something like CBT can also help you deal with negative thoughts and feelings that you might have. It's not curing the problem but it's changing how you perceive it and therefore, hopefully, making it easier to cope with. Eventually, with reduced stress, better understanding and a more positive attitude towards what you're experiencing, the depressive symptoms should be more manageable. As Julius Caesar says, depression usually seems to remit spontaneously but it's impossible to tell when this will happen and for some people this doesn't happen for a long time. Both medication and talk-based therapies exist to treat the illness.

Anti-depressants (or other forms of medication) will be necessary for some people as the symptoms are too severe to be manageable on their own, and the depression will be having a majorly adverse effect on their quality of life, for instance if they can't socialise, eat, sleep, speak etc. Or they may be a danger to themselves i.e. suicide risk, DSH. CBT doesn't work for some people. Also there seems to be different kinds of depression, some which can be ameliorated through therapies like CBT, some that respond better to different medications (with results varying by type) and some that seem to respond to very little unfortunately. So if someone is taking medication it's not because they're "lazy".

I would advise doing some research into current theories of the causes of depression before generalising so much about how people should be treated for it (and not just theories from the anti-psychiatry lot - I'd advise looking in neuroscientific books or journals for one thing).

I understand your viewpoint and youre entitled to your opinion. But I dont buy what your saying about depression being a physical problem initially. Thougths come first then physical responses. Thoughts are a product of life experiences and environment, resulting in learned patterns of thinking and behaviors. Its very rare that somebody will be born with a neurological defect which will requires them to take anti-depressants to function. Certainly theres not as many people taking anti-depressants who have such defects. Medication is prescribed way too quickly where CBT would do the job more effectively.
I know someone who sufferes from depression and was staright away prescribed anti-depressants as opposed to being treated with CBT and non-drug therapy. Shes still taking the meds and she still hasnt gotten to the root cause of her problems which makes her very dependent upon the anti-depressants. This is not uncommon, a lot of people are in this boat.
CBT should be used first and foremost not medication.

Gibs

While I admit I do find myself getting drawn in by the desire to tease out issues of causation, I wonder if debating whether the primary cause of depression is physical symptomatology, thoughts, emotions, relationships, brain chemistry, environemntal influences, (proximal or distal) events in a person's life, or 'whatever you're having yourself' is mostly just a secondary issue? It seems to me to result in heavily polarised arguments and ends up being a distraction from more interesting questions like "how do all of the many factors that we know contribute to the initiation, development, maintenance, remission and recurrence of depression interact together?"

Depression and other mood disorders are not simple; they are non-uniform and they are non-linear. They emerge in any given individual over a period of time in idiosyncratic, iterative, reflexive ways. You can offer accounts of depression that are descriptive and structural - e.g. using DSM-IV, which is nothing more than a structural, atheoretical list of lists of symptoms - but I think it's much more interesting to look for causal/explanatory mechanisms that operate at a level of analysis that offers predictive and explanatory power and that helps us to understand and explain the functioning of the individual. As Mick Power ruefully admits in his recent book, so far, we don't have a decent theory of depression yet, just a lot of correlational data and a few heuristics.

To paraphrase something I read recently on a related issue, when it comes to understanding the bio-psycho-social elements of mental health, most of the interesting research is now starting to focus on the hyphens....:p

eth0_

santana75 wrote: »

Medication is prescribed way too quickly where CBT would do the job more effectively.

Yes, it is. But that's not because doctors necessarily WANT to. The fact is, mental health services in Ireland are hugely underfunded - iirc <5% of HSE budget goes on it. Add to this the fact there isn't a huge amount of CBT therapists in Ireland, and the fact there's long waiting lists to see HSE therapists - can you see why GP's are using anti-depressants as a first-line treatment?

Valmont

eth0_ wrote: »

Yes, it is. But that's not because doctors necessarily WANT to. The fact is, mental health services in Ireland are hugely underfunded - iirc <5% of HSE budget goes on it. Add to this the fact there isn't a huge amount of CBT therapists in Ireland, and the fact there's long waiting lists to see HSE therapists - can you see why GP's are using anti-depressants as a first-line treatment?

You beat me to it. It's just not viable to send all patients to a CBT therapist because the resources aren't there in the first place.

Torakx

this is a subject i have ALOT of experience with.
so i guess i will share mine. possible spam inc!

i would say i suffered badly from depression from the ages of 20-28
over the years i had tried to deal with it but never really doing so because i was so depressed lol.

at the age of 23 i got to a stage where i shut myself in my apartment never answered the door or phone and frequently thought about suicide as a seriously alternative to this life.

now the symptoms have more or less been covered.
the causes arent so easy at all.
somebody said it depends on the person and that is truly the only good answer here.

myself i still dont know the full cause.
but.. i grew up in a strict religion that my subconcious definetly did not like me doing. this caused alot of confused feelings as i broke mysefl away around the age of 21-23 this kinda tells me i was hitting a period of depression due to my subconcious screaming that something was wrong or different.so when i started reading about psychology i presumed this was the main cause and could still have been.

btw i went from citalopram for anxiety and aggrophobbia to prozac for just plain ole depression over the years and never found them to help my particular situation in that it slightly relieved the symptoms but not the cause in any way.

but yet another twist in my tail of depression
i suffered from some disorder where i was always hungry snacking and my sugar carb cravings got worse to a point i would feel like fainting if i didnt eat soemthing .if it wasnt sugary i would still feel like a spot hadnt been filled.so i went to the doc and they checked my heart and blood.all was perfect a second referal to another doc and no luck a mystery.then a professor in beuamont hospital for gastrowhateveritscalled lol
he didnt even want to hear the symptoms just put a cam down my neck and say its probably an ulcer.
so i go home after seeing this proffessor.i start to research online and think its parasites.i try soem meds and it temporarily helps! but then creeps back again so i go on the search.
in the end only about 5 months ago i confirm to myself i have candida albicans(even though all friends and gf telling me i am making it up!) and i ditch the professor and start a diet to suit.
now i feel like a different person. during my time dieting to detox i have also had alot of spare time and reading alot of psychology and dealing with issues and generally finding myself.

the moral of the story is it can be one of those or all of those things that caused my depression.

so my advice to anyone suffering with depression is seriously take a realistic look at yourself.i mean really sit in a quiet room and contemplate your life and how it has gone so far.how your diet is and was in the past.
is your father/mother depressed or was for a long period etc etc.

writing these thoughts down at night or in the morning would help also.

for me it could have been the religion at one stage and the candida at another. i do know the tabs helped my like a crutch at the worst times.but i dont know if it was necessary and wether the tabs caused an immune weakness which let the candida get a good hold in later years.
i think a chemical imbalance is also possible at birth but im not sure just think its theoritically possible. my feelings are most times depression is due to
bad diet,health
traumatic past that needs to be faced or settled,
stress in the present life that triggers a defensive action,
chemical imbalance(possibly caused by bad diet,drugs,alcohol)in the rare cases maybe from birth due to the mother ingesting bad toxins during pregnancy.
im sure i missed some.but at least theres an insight into the mind of a madman

Valmont

Thanks for the sharing your story Torakx, it was very informative.

sambuka41

eth0_ wrote: »

Yes, it is. But that's not because doctors necessarily WANT to. The fact is, mental health services in Ireland are hugely underfunded - iirc <5% of HSE budget goes on it. Add to this the fact there isn't a huge amount of CBT therapists in Ireland, and the fact there's long waiting lists to see HSE therapists - can you see why GP's are using anti-depressants as a first-line treatment?

Totally agree! And if ya think its bad as an adult surffering from a mental illness trying to get help imagine being under the age of 18 and in serious crisis, no one will touch you with a barge pole :mad:

Torakx

that is quiote sad to hear for me.
i would never wish my depression on anyone let alone a growing mind.
isnt there some websites orientated towards young people and depression?
dealing with medical,sexual,mental issues?
alot of advice for young people i think could be general and informative and possibly open up alot of people to educate themselves about themselves.

i never understood why schools dont teach alot more about the human and how we relate with each other.it took me a very long time to come out of my shell and educate myself about the world and myself properly.
i dont think this need be the case for future generations.or at least shouldnt be if we are evolving as a species.

KarenWatson

Can you overcome depression with the use of medication?

Medication tends to hide the symptoms, you need to tackle the cause.

Tigerbaby

and you will understand all. the point being not how to prevent mad thoughts / bad states of mind which inevitably lead to bad feelings which inevitably lead to low self esteem which inevitably lead to more bad thoughts / bad states of mind etc etc ad nauseaum...

We are fools to think we can stop / control and analyze to death the myriad colours of the unconcious. Develop the frame of mind to allow these feelings pass through your concious without affecting or unsettling you. Step back from the flow of thoughts, let them through. If they are important or relevant to you, then your concious will grab them and use them. If they are of no use, then you have let them pass by without retention and subsequent conflict..

Learn. read. Understand. Take your time. This didnt happen overnight and will not be cured overnight. Let the bad days pass by.

star.chaser

since depression with the exception of the type caused by serious chemical imbalances can be caused when someone has a series of shiity things happen to them in succession after which and a pattern of negative thinking can set in, it makes total sense that dealing with the problems will cure the depression. popping pills only delays the inevitable: that eventually you'll have to deal with the shiit that got you feeling that way firstly. just takes time. the reason we have so many people going around zonked out of their heads is because doctors seem to prescribe them willy nilly. i went to the doctor with fatigue a few years ago. told him all the ways it was affecting me. in the end he said he'd give me something to help with the fatigue. i was expecting some type of stimulant. doctor says he'll give me an anti depressant. even offered to give me free samples? i said no thanks doctor. i'm not contributing towards another free holiday for you. bought some stimulants over the internet. fatigue solved.

santana75

Tigerbaby wrote: »

and you will understand all. the point being not how to prevent mad thoughts / bad states of mind which inevitably lead to bad feelings which inevitably lead to low self esteem which inevitably lead to more bad thoughts / bad states of mind etc etc ad nauseaum...

We are fools to think we can stop / control and analyze to death the myriad colours of the unconcious. Develop the frame of mind to allow these feelings pass through your concious without affecting or unsettling you. Step back from the flow of thoughts, let them through. If they are important or relevant to you, then your concious will grab them and use them. If they are of no use, then you have let them pass by without retention and subsequent conflict..

Learn. read. Understand. Take your time. This didnt happen overnight and will not be cured overnight. Let the bad days pass by.

Makes sense. Any jungian recommendations? Nothing too hard core straight off the bat, maybe Jung for dummies........

Tigerbaby

surely an oxymoron ? ha ha..

Its taken me a while to get to where I am with Jung. I am not an expert. He just speaks to my condition and makes sense of the whirl of life most of the time. How to stay steady in good times or bad, recognising each for the passing phases that they are.

His name kept cropping up in my "search for sanity".

anywayz, reading material. I guess there probably is a "Jung for Dummies" now that I think about it. Whats on my bookshelf and beside my bed are mainly;
"Memories, Dreams Reflections" ( his autobiograpy )
"The Essential Jung" by Anthony Storr ( read this first)

Take your time, explore. and good luck.

Latchy

Torakx wrote: »

.

i never understood why schools dont teach alot more about the human and how we relate with each other.it took me a very long time to come out of my shell and educate myself about the world and myself properly.
.

I agree with that, if their was more interaction besides the norm at schools a lot of children and teens who are crying out for help and understanding might be spared a lot of pain and grief .Unless your going to learn philosophy at college or university , the world can be a very strange ,confusing and hostile place , specially for that age group

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Jung - you will understand all. the point being not how to prevent mad thoughts / bad states of mind which inevitably lead to bad feelings which inevitably lead to low self esteem which inevitably lead to more bad thoughts / bad states of mind etc etc ad nauseaum...


Learn. read. Understand. Take your time. This didnt happen overnight and will not be cured overnight. Let the bad days pass by.

Jung for dummies



surely an oxymoron ? ha ha..

Its taken me a while to get to where I am with Jung. I am not an expert. He just speaks to my condition and makes sense of the whirl of life most of the time. How to stay steady in good times or bad, recognising each for the passing phases that they are.

His name kept cropping up in my "search for sanity".

anywayz, reading material. I guess there probably is a "Jung for Dummies" now that I think about it. Whats on my bookshelf and beside my bed are mainly;
"Memories, Dreams Reflections" ( his autobiograpy )
"The Essential Jung" by Anthony Storr ( read this first)

Take your time, explore. and good luck.

Have heard of Jung , sounds intresting .Will check him out myself thanks

dumbblonde122

I did a very comprehensive study on Depression for college last year. CBT is the most effective therapy to use when treating depression. However the success rate is higher if CBT is used together with medication known as SSRI's. These do not have to be strong but they will help minimise the disturbances in your brain which is how depression develops.

santana75

Tigerbaby wrote: »

surely an oxymoron ? ha ha..

Its taken me a while to get to where I am with Jung. I am not an expert. He just speaks to my condition and makes sense of the whirl of life most of the time. How to stay steady in good times or bad, recognising each for the passing phases that they are.

His name kept cropping up in my "search for sanity".

anywayz, reading material. I guess there probably is a "Jung for Dummies" now that I think about it. Whats on my bookshelf and beside my bed are mainly;
"Memories, Dreams Reflections" ( his autobiograpy )
"The Essential Jung" by Anthony Storr ( read this first)

Take your time, explore. and good luck.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll definitely give those a go.

Tigerbaby

Very welcome. just be patient with yourself. there are no magic bullets. there are good and bad days, just like the weather. This is normal, and human.

Torakx

i can also reccomend jung he is my hero of psychology so far and imo was miles ahead of freud.
"The Essential Jung" by Anthony Storr is the one im reading.
some complicated stuff regarding dreams but most of it will teach you alot about yourself.
highly reccommended.

hotspur

I once got a bad grade in my undergraduate psychology days for an essay on Jung in which I called him a pathological liar.

Just to give another perspective on Jung in case someone rushes off thinking he's the answer, he will appeal to you if you are into dream catchers and mysticism. Whatever people feel about Freud's focus on sexuality at least he wasn't a nutcase and a fraud.

It's horses for courses but Jung is likely to appeal to quite a small section of society.

What do the psychologists and students of psychology here think about him?