The Students' Union & Abortion

Cantab.

Piste wrote: »

Why wouldn't the SU provide info on abortion? That doesn't make them pro-abortion, it makes them pretty neutral if they provide information on all possibilities. They're only be pro-abortion if they refused to provide info on adoption/keeping the baby and only pushed abortion.

If they're "neutral", the least they could would be to put up the number for Cura and others.

Maybe they're not "neutral". They should at least state this very clearly before giving out "advice" to students.

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

If they're "neutral", the least they could would be to put up the number for Cura

That wouldn't be neutral, that would be deliberately acting against the best interests of the student's mental health.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

That wouldn't be neutral, that would be deliberately acting against the best interests of the student's mental health.

What about the mental health of a student after she's had an abortion?

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

What about the mental health of a student after she's had an abortion?

Seriously damaged if Cura get their claws into her.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

Seriously damaged if Cura get their claws into her.

Obfuscation. Answer the question.

Sparks

I did. Very precisely.

alantc

Captain Flaps wrote: »

I've deduced that you're either a hordcore conservative Catholic, a total idiot, or a troll. I suspect the latter, because I don't think that anybody could be that stupid.

You're saying that nobody could be so stupid as to be a hardcore conservative Catholic? Go speak to your parents, grandparents, all their siblings and everyone they know.

Boston wrote: »

At least in PI you get multiple opinions and no one has more weight then the other. People might, justifiable, think a welfare officer has a clue when in reality there was no such requirement.

It's against the rules in PI to speak out against abortion. I was recently banned for suggesting to a girl, who asked was feeling OK about abortion alright, that her cognitive dissonance was reasonable and that the majority of the country would agree that abortion is wrong.

Sparks wrote: »

Catholics are immune to rohypnol now?!

Date rape drugs are not used in Ireland. Please, please find me a reference that proves me wrong. I've searched and can only find experts saying date rape drugs have never been found, and nothing beyond anecdotes saying otherwise. Funny how this type of rape-victim never informs the authorities.

Mark200 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion".

I believe there are some who support abortion for economic reasons, e.g. lower crime rates, fewer welfare recipients.

claire h wrote: »

Are you seriously, genuinely and truly saying, that if a woman doesn't want to carry a baby to term and the father wants her to, she should have to?

Yes. I would be enraged if a girl murdered my child. I don't give a sh it about any abortions you've had, but my child is a different story. Do you expect a father to provide for and protect his child from the moment of birth, but until then stand idly by while some woman prioritises her social life over his progeny?

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

I did. Very precisely.

Can I confirm then that your answer is "seriously damaged"?

Or maybe you think that a student's mental health is perfectly normal after an abortion?

Sparks

alantc wrote: »

You're saying that nobody could be so stupid as to be a hardcore conservative Catholic?

Well, it depends on whether you mean by hardcore that they live by the original tenets of the faith or whether you mean by hardcore that they follow every directive from the Pope and the Church.

Go speak to your parents

Beaten by Christian Brothers.

grandparents

Actually whipped by Christian Brothers.[/quote]all their siblings and everyone they know. [/quote]Read the Ryan Report at all?

It's against the rules in PI to speak out against abortion. I was recently banned for suggesting to a girl, who asked was feeling OK about abortion alright, that her cognitive dissonance was reasonable and that the majority of the country would agree that abortion is wrong.

It's not against the rules. Trying to psychologically scar someone because you've confused a debate in Humanities with someone asking for help in PI, however, would get your post deleted.

Date rape drugs are not used in Ireland. Please, please find me a reference that proves me wrong.

Again, personal experience says that you're incorrect.

Funny how this type of rape-victim never informs the authorities.

Funny would not be the word I would choose to use.
But in a country where less than 5% of all rapists see the inside of a courtroom, let alone the inside of a cell, it's sadly unsurprising.

I believe there are some who support abortion for economic reasons, e.g. lower crime rates, fewer welfare recipients.

There may well be. But if you can't trust them in pregnancy, how the heck do you propose to trust them in parenthood?

Yes. I would be enraged if a girl murdered my child. I don't give a sh it about any abortions you've had, but my child is a different story. Do you expect a father to provide for and protect his child from the moment of birth, but until then stand idly by while some woman prioritises her social life over his progeny?

Son, you have no rights over her body. If your genetic material is in her womb, it's by your choice. Giving up those rights is part of that choice. If you want a child and think she wouldn't carry it to term, guess what? Choose not to put it in there.

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

Can I confirm then that your answer is "seriously damaged"?

No. You can confirm that my answer is what I posted.

Or maybe you think that a student's mental health is perfectly normal after an abortion?

Depends on what folks do to that student. I've seen it go both ways, purely because of external influences (ie. other people not minding their own business and forcing their opinions on them).

Cantab.

The wrong-doing of certain perverts within the Christian Brothers is nothing compared to the amount of blood the "Irish Family Planning Association" have on their hands.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

Depends on what folks do to that student. I've seen it go both ways, purely because of external influences (ie. other people not minding their own business and forcing their opinions on them).

Funny how when women have a miscarriage, they often experience mental health problems.

Anyway, I imagine you have no sympathy for women who miscarry (seeing as it's not a child and all).

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

The wrong-doing of certain perverts within the Christian Brothers is nothing compared to the amount of blood the "Irish Family Planning Association" have on their hands.

Even the ones who raped boys? I mean, is homosexuality less of a crime than abortion? (Obviously it's less a crime than rape, since you can be excommunicated for abortion but not for rape). I'm having trouble finding the ranking table in Leviticus - I missed that less in Religious Instruction I think. Chicken Pox, wouldn't you know? Obviously the devil's handiwork, the cad.

Cantab. wrote: »

Funny how when women have a miscarriage, they often experience mental health problems.

Again, I wouldn't use the word "funny". I'll point out, though I suspect it will be lost in the noise, that there's a bit of a correlation between those who experience mental health issues after a miscarriage and whether they were actively trying to concieve or were in an unplanned crisis pregnancy.

Anyway, I imagine you have no sympathy for women who miscarry (seeing as it's not a child and all).

Actually, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are in pain. It's a human thing, has to do with mirror neurons and such.
Ever experienced it yourself?

Boston

Cantab has you on one point, there has never been a confirmed case of a date rape drug being used in Ireland. That includes women who merely feel they've been spiked by a drug but never assaulted.

Of course that maybe more due to the irish medical system.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

Even the ones who raped boys? I mean, is homosexuality less of a crime than abortion? (Obviously it's less a crime than rape, since you can be excommunicated for abortion but not for rape). I'm having trouble finding the ranking table in Leviticus - I missed that less in Religious Instruction I think. Chicken Pox, wouldn't you know? Obviously the devil's handiwork, the cad.

I'm finding it difficult to understand the point you are trying to make.

Sparks wrote: »

Again, I wouldn't use the word "funny".

The semantic interpretation part of your brain must be out of order. I meant "funny" in the sense "odd" you twit. It's quite obvious from the context, but don't let that stop you from going of on a tangential rant and obfuscating.

Sparks wrote: »

I'll point out, though I suspect it will be lost in the noise, that there's a bit of a correlation between those who experience mental health issues after a miscarriage and whether they were actively trying to concieve or were in an unplanned crisis pregnancy.

In other words people who have abortions are sociopaths. The only thing they care about is themselves - quite a prevalent phenomenon in today's consumerist society.

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are in pain. It's a human thing, has to do with mirror neurons and such.
Ever experienced it yourself?

So you admit that abortion causes psychological "pain". I wonder why that is...

Fad

Cantab. wrote: »

What about the mental health of a student after she's had an abortion?

It would probably be better than her mental health if she was bullied (Using threats of eternal damnation) into carrying a baby to term when she doesnt actually want to.

Sparks

Boston wrote: »

Cantab has you on one point, there has never been a confirmed case of a date rape drug being used in Ireland. That includes women who merely feel they've been spiked by a drug but never assaulted.
Of course that maybe more due to the irish medical system.

I think - from personal experience, again - that it has a lot more to do with the Irish Justice system. And Irish society - specifically the part of it that believes in absolute rules like our little christian friends here.

I mean, you're asking someone who's been physically assaulted rather badly to stand up in public and admit it and go into detail on it while a man is paid to make her (or him) look like a liar and a degenerate in public, on the record; and only 5% of those cases even get that far.

That there's ever been a recorded and confirmed case of rape in this country is a wonder sometimes.

(By the way, since rohypnol leaves the system inside of 2-3 days and causes amnesia, it's remarkably hard to confirm its use even without the uniquely Irish additions to the problem. Unless someone actually witnesses a rapid onset of cognitive impairment, it's very difficult to know if it's been used.)

alantc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, it depends on whether you mean by hardcore that they live by the original tenets of the faith or whether you mean by hardcore that they follow every directive from the Pope and the Church.

I mean you'll find many, many people in this predominantly Catholic country who are both hardcore conservative Catholics and intelligent people who contribute greatly to society, which is contrary to what I believe you meant: that nobody could be so stupid as to be a hardcore conservative Catholic.

It's not against the rules. Trying to psychologically scar someone because you've confused a debate in Humanities with someone asking for help in PI, however, would get your post deleted.

The girl was so "ok" with her abortion that she posted in PI, everyone said "yay, abortions", I told her to get counselling.

Again, personal experience says that you're incorrect.
...
Funny would not be the word I would choose to use.

Why have these anecdotes never been compiled into a report that would prompt the government to say something other than "there have been no cases"? A bit strange, eh?

There may well be. But if you can't trust them in pregnancy, how the heck do you propose to trust them in parenthood?

I don't know what you're getting at. I was presenting information to the poster I replied to, you seem to be trying to argue. You look silly. I don't even know what "them" you're referring to. Re-read what I was quoting, for context.

Son, you have no rights over her body. If your genetic material is in her womb, it's by your choice. Giving up those rights is part of that choice. If you want a child and think she wouldn't carry it to term, guess what? Choose not to put it in there.

Son, I know I have "no rights over her body", I also don't agree with Irish laws governing fathers' rights after birth. Regardless, I would start caring for my child from conception. That's the difference between you and I.

Boston

Theres never been a medically published diagnoses of a date rate drug being used to spike someone in Ireland. Thats nothing to do with the justice system. There are of course problems with the drug leaving the system extremely quickly, but I don't for a second believe it happens to the level some would suggest.

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

I'm finding it difficult to understand the point you are trying to make.

I'm unsurprised, sadly.

The semantic interpretation part of your brain must be out of order. I meant "funny" in the sense "odd" you twit. It's quite obvious from the context, but don't let that stop you from going of on a tangential rant and obfuscating.

Actually, the reason I wouldn't use the word "funny" is that someone who's gone through what we're talking about might find it a painful term. It's that "sympathy" thing again (though maybe empathy is a better term).

In other words people who have abortions are sociopaths. The only thing they care about is themselves - quite a prevalent phenomenon in today's consumerist society.

Firstly, no.
Secondly, being selfish is not even similar in form to psychopathy, let alone in magnitude.
Thirdly, society has been consumerist since tribes first differentiated activities somewhere between 60 and 160 thousand years ago.
Fourthly, sympathy would prevent you saying stuff like this.

So you admit that abortion causes psychological "pain". I wonder why that is...

Actually I don't. Because it doesn't.
And for the record, abortions and miscarriages are different things in many ways, from context to emotional impact to the medical attention available to the woman during either event.
And again, sympathy would be a nice thing for you to display here.
Even if you have to fake it, like all sociopaths do.

Cantab.

Fad wrote: »

It would probably be better than her mental health if she was bullied (Using threats of eternal damnation) into carrying a baby to term when she doesnt actually want to.

And what about non-Catholics? Are there no psychological effects for them?

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

And what about non-Catholics? Are there no psychological effects for them?

Cantab, you don't understand. The psychological effects are not caused by catholicism, though they're especially rampant there because of the emphasis the religion puts on controlling the reproductive practices of its members; the psychological effects are caused by other people imposing negative frames of reference on the woman undergoing the procedure (whether that's done before, during or after the procedure).

alantc

Sparks wrote: »

(By the way, since rohypnol leaves the system inside of 2-3 days and causes amnesia, it's remarkably hard to confirm its use even without the uniquely Irish additions to the problem. Unless someone actually witnesses a rapid onset of cognitive impairment, it's very difficult to know if it's been used.)

In cases where women have presented themselves to a doctor, date rape drugs have never been found.

In the cases where girls anecdotally claim that they or their friend was drugged, and they are "sure" of it, they never report it.

Captain Flaps

Sparks wrote: »

or whether you mean by hardcore that they follow every directive from the Pope and the Church

This. The Catholic church seems to be fuelling a lot of hate and anger, they're not the only ones but certainly the worst offenders in this country.

Sparks

Captain Flaps wrote: »

This. The Catholic church seems to be fuelling a lot of hate and anger, they're not the only ones but certainly the worst offenders in this country.

Well, yes. But if you slavishly follow someone else's edicts on morality even when they're in direct conflict with the fundamental professed tenets of the faith, that kind of thing will happen.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

The psychological effects are not caused by catholicism, though they're especially rampant there because of the emphasis the religion puts on controlling the reproductive practices of its members;

It's called morals - rooted in natural law. Women should be proud to have their children, not disgusted by it.

Sparks wrote: »

the psychological effects are caused by other people imposing negative frames of reference on the woman undergoing the procedure (whether that's done before, during or after the procedure).

That's a rubbish argument. Extending that logic, one should have no sympathy for women who miscarry.

Cantab.

Captain Flaps wrote: »

This. The Catholic church seems to be fuelling a lot of hate and anger, they're not the only ones but certainly the worst offenders in this country.

As opposed to who? A Students' Union who pay for the destruction of innocent children? The "Irish Family Planning Association" who condone and facilitate (even encourage) the destruction of innocent children?

The SU and the IFPA are institutionally evil and morally bankrupt.

Sparks

alantc wrote: »

In cases where women have presented themselves to a doctor, date rape drugs have never been found.
In the cases where girls anecdotally claim that they or their friend was drugged, and they are "sure" of it, they never report it.

To be brutal about it alantc, you're talking about trying to detect something where only a third of events are reported at all (according to the rape centre's statistics) and where reporting is not always quickly enough to test within the two to three days you have to detect the presence of rohypnol, for fairly obvious reasons.

Trying to definitively state that it has never happened - especially to someone who's had personal experience that it has happened based on a witness's observation of rapidly impaired cognitive function and subsequent cognitive impairment and other effects - isn't a task you can complete with any great degree of satisfaction.

Captain Flaps

Cantab. wrote: »

As opposed to who? A Students' Union who pay for the destruction of innocent children? The "Irish Family Planning Association" who condone and facilitate (even encourage) the destruction of innocent children?

The SU and the IFPA are institutionally evil and morally bankrupt.

Hahahahaha.

There's that reference to the SU paying for abortions again. Care to back that up?

Cantab.

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Hahahahaha.

There's that reference to the SU paying for abortions again. Care to back that up?

I've been around College long enough to know that it happens. I'd love to see the welfare officer try and deny it.