The Students' Union & Abortion

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

It's called morals - rooted in natural law.

What's natural law? Other than "If I'm bigger than you, I can do whatever I want to you" that is?

That's a rubbish argument. Extending that logic, one should have no sympathy for women who miscarry.

You're misunderstanding what this is.
It is not a debate. There is no argument because there is no possibility of someone "winning". There are no "sides". Your pretending that I said something other than what is up here on the screen is immaterial except in the damage it can do. All ther eis here are people who you are hurting because you apparently don't have the ability to empathise with them.

If you want a debate on this, the forum you want to go to is Humanities.

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

The SU and the IFPA are institutionally evil and morally bankrupt.

I might argue that about the SU, but only because of the bands they chose for the Trinity Ball.
As for the IFPA, I don't think they've ever chosen the bands for the Ball, so I don't think they're evil. A bit boring, yes, but you only go to Heck for that.

Captain Flaps

Cantab. wrote: »

I've been around College long enough to know that it happens. I'd love to see the welfare officer try and deny it.

Hearsay is not proof.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

What's natural law? Other than "If I'm bigger than you, I can do whatever I want to you" that is?You're misunderstanding what this is.

No actually. At least you conform to the "no harm principle" (at least I hope you do - Catholicism goes much deeper than this simplistic maxim. I suggest you take a wikipedia crash-course on natural law.

Sparks wrote: »

It is not a debate. There is no argument because there is no possibility of someone "winning". There are no "sides". Your pretending that I said something other than what is up here on the screen is immaterial except in the damage it can do. All ther eis here are people who you are hurting because you apparently don't have the ability to empathise with them.

More obfuscation.

Sparks wrote: »

If you want a debate on this, the forum you want to go to is Humanities.

The act of abortion is at the very heart of the problem. The Students' Union insistence on taking a far left-wing stance by posting the number for the "Irish Family Planning Association" and advising students on abortion (not to mention getting "training" from the IFPA), warrants serious concern from many members of the student population.

Captain Flaps

Also Cantab., would you mind stating your personal stance on abortion? Is it: abortion is morally evil, the SU and IFPA are evil as they encourage abortion, and anyone who gets an abortion is going to hell for committing murder?

Cantab.

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Hearsay is not proof.

How can you prove something that is hidden from view? It's a well-known practice and goes down as "miscellaneous" in the accounts. You should get one of your girl friends to see if it's true.

Fad

Cantab. wrote: »

And what about non-Catholics? Are there no psychological effects for them?

Oh of course not, sure they dont have souls......

I dont think an abortion is a walk in the park, but obviously it would affect some more than others, it depends how much value (If any at all) you place on life (If you call it that.....).

They might be morally bankrupt (In your opinion) but they provide a service that is in sufficient demand to allow me to think that not everyone in this country is so backward in their thought process.......

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

I've been around College long enough to know that it happens.

You've been around longer than 13 years?

I'd love to see the welfare officer try and deny it.

LBJ would be proud...

jill_valentine

Cantab. wrote: »

You should get one of your girl friends to see if it's true.

Girlfriends plural. Nice one.

The way to a girl's heart is through her uterus.

Sparks

Cantab. wrote: »

No actually. At least you conform to the "no harm principle" (at least I hope you do - Catholicism goes much deeper than this simplistic maxim. I suggest you take a wikipedia crash-course on natural law.

So you're not Catholic then?

More obfuscation.

Nope. Empathy. Mirror neurons, they're the latest thing. Try them sometime.

The act of abortion is at the very heart of the problem.

Not really. For a start, you've got the wrong organ completely (and really, that spells bad news for your sexual partners. Might I suggest you read Everywoman to correct that?)

The Students' Union insistence on taking a far left-wing stance by posting the number for the "Irish Family Planning Association"

In fairness, the telephone is not really a liberals-only invention. I mean, eircom is about as unhippylike as it's possible to get without actually wrapping around and ending up in woodstock.

warrants serious concern from many members of the student population.

I'm relatively sure the student population has more pressing matters worrying it at the moment - and in fact, always has.

Cantab. wrote: »

How can you prove something that is hidden from view?

So it's there but we can't see it.
Or it's happened but we can't detect it.

Are you saying the Welfare Officer is a god and that his actions are like transsubstantiation?
Because you know, that's an automatic excommunication from the Catholic church right there if that's what you're saying...

It's a well-known practice and goes down as "miscellaneous" in the accounts. You should get one of your girl friends to see if it's true.

That's a bit sexist cantab. Boys can do accountancy now as well you know.

Sparks

jill_valentine wrote: »

The way to a girl's heart is through her uterus.

Dear god, didn't anyone learn basic anatomy around here?

j1smithy

Cantab. wrote: »

How can you prove something that is hidden from view? It's a well-known practice and goes down as "miscellaneous" in the accounts. You should get one of your girl friends to see if it's true.

Whatever about it being used to hide funding for abortions, its very bad accounting practice. Someone could very easily be stealing from the SU and hiding it in the accounts under this heading. Does anyone know what the entry in the final accounts for this category of expense was? Were receipts provided?

shay_562

Cantab. wrote:

How can you prove something that is hidden from view? It's a well-known practice and goes down as "miscellaneous" in the accounts. You should get one of your girl friends to see if it's true.

Cantab., mate, I think you've gotten a bit lost. This seems to be the forum you're looking for.

Cantab.

Sparks wrote: »

So you're not Catholic then?

Read the post again. Think.

Sparks wrote: »

Empathy. Mirror neurons, they're the latest thing. Try them sometime.

Empathy is a virtue that everyone in this debate holds. Pro-abortionists don't have a monopoly on it.

Sparks wrote: »

Not really. For a start, you've got the wrong organ completely (and really, that spells bad news for your sexual partners. Might I suggest you read Everywoman to correct that?)

Is that supposed to be a logical argument, or are you now just being a twat?

Sparks wrote: »

In fairness, the telephone is not really a liberals-only invention. I mean, eircom is about as unhippylike as it's possible to get without actually wrapping around and ending up in woodstock.

Now you're just being silly (again). There's no excuse for the Students' Union posting such telephone numbers. If students refused to pay their membership fees they'd know all about it.

Sparks wrote: »

I'm relatively sure the student population has more pressing matters worrying it at the moment - and in fact, always has.

You're right - the SU should focus on college matters and not be dabbling in abortion sales.

Sparks wrote: »

So it's there but we can't see it.
Or it's happened but we can't detect it.

Are you saying the Welfare Officer is a god and that his actions are like transsubstantiation?
Because you know, that's an automatic excommunication from the Catholic church right there if that's what you're saying...

Useless contribution.

Sparks wrote: »

That's a bit sexist cantab. Boys can do accountancy now as well you know.

I doubt the SU will be paying for boys to have an abortion.

Fad

Cantab. wrote: »

Is that supposed to be a logical argument, or are you now just being a twat?

That's personal abuse..........

Cantab. wrote: »

Now you're just being silly (again). There's no excuse for the Students' Union posting such telephone numbers. If students refused to pay their membership fees they'd know all about it.

I think the word student, in student's union explains this, as in it's a union of students, it would have some sort of emphasis on Student Welfare, and oddly, your idea of a solution to an unplanned pregnancy in college is a little different to a rather large proportion (I'm not even going to pretend I know the stats, don't try and make any up, please ) of the student body.

Cantab. wrote: »

You're right - the SU should focus on college matters and not be dabbling in abortion sales.

Student Welfare........

Cantab. wrote: »

I doubt the SU will be paying for boys to have an abortion.

Why bloody not? I am offended by this most outrageous assumption.

alantc

Sparks wrote: »

Trying to definitively state that it has never happened - especially to someone who's had personal experience that it has happened based on a witness's observation of rapidly impaired cognitive function and subsequent cognitive impairment and other effects - isn't a task you can complete with any great degree of satisfaction.

If it was real, at least one person would've reported it. You're not doing anyone any favours by spreading this myth. Your friend got drunk.

Sparks wrote: »

You've been around longer than 13 years?

He said "long enough", not "longer than you". This isn't a competition to see who can look cooler on the internet.

Sparks wrote: »

I might argue that about the SU, but only because of the bands they chose for the Trinity Ball.
As for the IFPA, I don't think they've ever chosen the bands for the Ball, so I don't think they're evil. A bit boring, yes, but you only go to Heck for that.

You talk a lot of crap.

Sparks wrote: »

Empathy. Mirror neurons, they're the latest thing. Try them sometime.

You should try them when considering the child whose life is about to be ended. It's not just the woman's body, it's the body of a child, too.

In fairness, the telephone is not really a liberals-only invention. I mean, eircom is about as unhippylike as it's possible to get without actually wrapping around and ending up in woodstock.

You talk a lot of crap.

Sparks wrote: »

Dear god, didn't anyone learn basic anatomy around here?

You talk a lot of crap.

You should brush up on your debating skills. People will too readliy dismiss your legitimate points when your posts are full of sh it.

Fad

Cantab. banned for personal abuse. alantc banned for insulting behaviour towards other users. Both for a week.

Fad wrote: »

That's personal abuse..........

Report it so.

Piste

Cantab. wrote: »

If they're "neutral", the least they could would be to put up the number for Cura and others.

Maybe they're not "neutral". They should at least state this very clearly before giving out "advice" to students.

Ok I know you're banned, but hopefully you'll see this when you get back. I the TCDSU section on Pregnancy they outline all possible courses of action to take, including adoption, abortion and keeping the baby: http://www.tcdsu.org/?s=4&p=58

On the Welfare Directory page they have numbers for organisation who promote adoption, abortion and keeping the child (including CURA, you'll be delighted to know!): http://www.tcdsu.org/?s=4&p=79

So yeah, it does seem pretty neutral to me. I get the freeling the SU doesn't really care what you do as long as you're happy about it yourself, which is the right stance to take imho.

Rorate Caeli

Yawn

Boston

Why does he keep on saying that captain flaps has multiple girlfriends?

Captain Flaps

Boston wrote: »

Why does he keep on saying that captain flaps has multiple girlfriends?

Must be the cap, it does draw the ladies.

Ron DMC

Captain Flaps wrote: »

Must be the cap, it does draw the ladies.

Without cap, you could just be Flapstain

AlanSparrowhawk

I think Sparks was almost successful in completely derailing this thread. No wonder after 13 years he's still in college.

I think I can take this opportunity to explain my previous comments on this thread as it remains on topic. This debate/discussion started off between me ,Cantab., Senor Juarez and friends. All, I'm fully aware are men and not women, and to the best of my knowledge none have experienced abortion by proxy.

My point is I felt we could all discuss the ethics of abortion as equals without judging each other. That is to say, all of our opinions are equally irrelevant. If instead the contributers to the thread were actually women who may have experienced abortion or been in a situation where it was strongly considered I would never have opened my mouth. I would never judge anyone in their position because I've no experience of it and only a very limited (if any) understanding of what it would feel like. Furthermore, I'd never be so grossly insensitive to discuss the ethics of abortion in the presence of a woman who has experienced it. In fact, I'm very reluctant to open my mouth on the subject in female company. If this makes me a sexist, misogynist dinosaur so be it.

However, it was obviously naive of me to expect such a topic to go untouched by others outside the original circle especially on a open forum with a diverse membership. Obviously it was extremely callous of me to make such a comment (and incredibly arrogant and presumptuous). However I don't apologise.

This discussion was never about abortion itself but about the role of the SU in the matter. It is my understanding that abortion in Ireland is illegal (except in cases of risk of life to the mother) however women are free to travel abroad for the procedure. It is acceptable for groups such as the SU to offer information on abortions abroad but not to actively encourage or promote abortion in particular cases.

Obviously i've no experience of the situation in TCD but one would presume that any girl who goes to the welfare officer with a question on the subject would be immediately directed towards positive options/well women centre/irish family planning association. This seems reasonable to me.

Thirdfox

Love the tags at the bottom of this

Just to offer one point of opinion/view on the legality of abortion in Ireland. Currently our legal system is in a complete mess (in regards to when an abortion can be performed). Hence the two referendums on it (and both sides campaigning for no votes I believe).

The text of our Constitution states that the life of an unborn is equal to that of the mother. But the supreme court judgment in AG v. X case decided that this is to be interpreted as the life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother, except when the mother is physically or mentally at risk of injury (here the girl threatened suicide if she wasn't allowed an abortion).

So we that's why the situation is rather confusing right now - the text of the Constitution prima facia seems to suggest that abortion is illegal, but the Supreme Court has ruled/interpreted otherwise. One Government referendum wanted to change the text to include physical danger to the mother as a reason for abortions but not mental. Hence both sides campaiging against it (the pro-choice people don't want to see the removal of the mental argument enumerated in the X case judgment and the pro-life people don't want to see any type of abortion being legalised).

All of the above has almost nothing to do with the SU-abortion advice debate but I thought you may find some of the information useful as to the current legal status of abortion in Ireland.

Sparks

AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »

Furthermore, I'd never be so grossly insensitive to discuss the ethics of abortion in the presence of a woman who has experienced it.

Indeed. It's a good thing women can't read or use computers, or you couldn't make that claim...

edit: I won't mention the identifying marker we apply to all women who've had abortions so that we don't mention the topic in their presence, after all, that would be a bit churlish.

And about the 13 years thing, you know that joke about how one student being absent isn't noticed, but one lecturer being absent is?

AlanSparrowhawk

no i haven't heard that joke, and please don't tell it unless it's relevant to the su and abortion cos your intellectual ramblings aren't suited for this thread.

Sparks

AlanSparrowhawk wrote: »

no i haven't heard that joke

Well you see, there was this lecture, right, and one student wasn't there and noone noticed, so the next time the lecture was on, right, the lecturer didn't show up because he figured if one student wouldn't be noticed, then what's one more person? It's funny, you see, because the logic's underlying assumption that all people are equal, while being true in ethics and law, is invalid when considering professional functions in a work or study environment.
I'm surprised you've not heard it before, it's really quite droll.

AlanSparrowhawk

Peace dude.

Lecturers are paid to attend though, and students pay to attend. Lecturers might have 3 lectures a week, a student might have 20. I don't think it's really that funny but maybe if I had a PhD, Post-Doc and a lectureship I'd see the wit innit.

Sparks

True... but you'd also have been in college for over a decade, so the joke would feel like very black humour indeed.

oogyoop

Quite shocked that this is the case. It's waaaay beyond their remit. Referral to a crisis pregnancy service should be as far as they go.