The end is nigh for shooting?

bmcm71

I believe a few things have become apparent with the new firearm legislation

We have an anti-gun, anti-shooting government. Ahearn has admitted the new laws won't make a bit of difference to gun crime in the country!

The NARGC (inspite of their protestations) have not acted in the best interests of shooters. They should have fought harder and instructed their members to veto the new forms

Handguns will be completely banned in the near future

We have opened the door for further increases in license fees that may make shooting too expensive for many people in time to come

The government and I guess the guards don't trust the citizens with guns and will continue to do all in their power to restrict ownership and limit new applications

By making the new application so complicated and expensive they have very effectively discouraged new applications and will undoubtedly cause many people to reduce the number of firearms they hold.

I visited a prominent dealer in the midlands recently and he has 120 guns sold and awaiting licensing. When these licenses will issue is anyones guess and until then this man is being deprived of his livelihood for no good reason. Irish people are too quiet and too trusting of the people they elect. Out of the hundreds of thousands of law abiding license holders in the country today if we can't come up with a few thousand to march on the Dail and make our objections heard then we might as well hand all our guns in now and go playing golf

kippy

bmcm71 wrote: »

I believe a few things have become apparent with the new firearm legislation

We have an anti-gun, anti-shooting government. Ahearn has admitted the new laws won't make a bit of difference to gun crime in the country!

The NARGC (inspite of their protestations) have not acted in the best interests of shooters. They should have fought harder and instructed their members to veto the new forms

Handguns will be completely banned in the near future

We have opened the door for further increases in license fees that may make shooting too expensive for many people in time to come

The government and I guess the guards don't trust the citizens with guns and will continue to do all in their power to restrict ownership and limit new applications

By making the new application so complicated and expensive they have very effectively discouraged new applications and will undoubtedly cause many people to reduce the number of firearms they hold.

I visited a prominent dealer in the midlands recently and he has 120 guns sold and awaiting licensing. When these licenses will issue is anyones guess and until then this man is being deprived of his livelihood for no good reason. Irish people are too quiet and too trusting of the people they elect. Out of the hundreds of thousands of law abiding license holders in the country today if we can't come up with a few thousand to march on the Dail and make our objections heard then we might as well hand all our guns in now and go playing golf

I know what you are saying but I really dont think theres any will in the country among the general public to see laws making it easier to get guns. Thats the crux of it. The gun "lobby" really isn't that powerful.

BornToKill

bmcm71 wrote: »

Out of the hundreds of thousands of law abiding license holders in the country today if we can't come up with a few thousand to march on the Dail and make our objections heard then we might as well hand all our guns in now and go playing golf

It's a great idea and a novel one. You should organise just such a march. Get back to me with the date and I'll be there.

bmcm71

I agree we're not a big powerful group like say the farmers but if we do nothing, then nothing happens. A lot of bull**** has been spouted by Ahearn referring to the "gun culture" and nobody from the shooting groups have taken him to task and defended our rights and our reputations. We're all citizens and deserve to have our voices heard. I just think if we don't do something we will regret it

Vegeta

bmcm71 wrote: »

We have an anti-gun, anti-shooting government. Ahearn has admitted the new laws won't make a bit of difference to gun crime in the country!

A general election will sort that hopefully

We have opened the door for further increases in license fees that may make shooting too expensive for many people in time to come

My rifle license has come down in price and the shotgun has increased by what 5 quid. The price of an expensive pint. Not exactly a big deal now is it

By making the new application so complicated and expensive they have very effectively discouraged new applications and will undoubtedly cause many people to reduce the number of firearms they hold.

Jesus lads the form is not difficult at all and its not that much more expensive. With 2 rifles and 1 shotgun I actually save money now.

Out of the hundreds of thousands of law abiding license holders in the country today if we can't come up with a few thousand to march on the Dail and make our objections heard then we might as well hand all our guns in now and go playing golf

Too late now, and gun owners marching on the Dail is a headline we could do without. You know how to vote the next time.

bmcm71

Sorry Vegeta but thats the attitude that has us where we are. I have 4 shotguns now costing 320 euros to license thats up from 129. A bit more than the price of a pint!! And forget an election the next crowd of muppets will do exactly the same inspite of any promises you'll get from them now

Sparks

So what you're saying bmcm is that it was okay when rifle and pistol shooters were paying more, but now that we all pay the same amount, something must be done?

And if an election isn't good enough to solve the problem, exactly what the heck are you proposing?

c-note

i know this may not be a popular post in the shooting forum,
but as a member of the public i'd like to see handguns banned.
Unlike rifles and shotguns they are only used for target shooting sport (i hope).
So i support my government in introducing any legislation which will make all types of guns/ gun liscences harder to obtain.

A gun is only dangerous in the hands of someone who dosnt know how to handle it, or who has bad intentions. and handguns are tooooo easy to conceal in the case that they fall into the wrong hands.

as a side note, i think that it should be illegal to display an airsoft gun in public, with penalties on a par with real guns, either that or they should all be illuminous yellow.

In case you may think i'm some kind of anti-gun advocate, i'm not, i own a gun.

bmcm71

Sorry sparks forgot to say I also have a rifle and a revolver and no i didn't think it was fair that I had to pay extra for those 2 either but do you think the new license fees are fairer? I think we could organise for all gun clubs, ranges etc to have a protest day in Dublin. From speaking with dealers and other shooters there is support for such a measure. Will you join us?

Vegeta

bmcm71 wrote: »

Sorry Vegeta but thats the attitude that has us where we are.

Its too late now for this type of demonstration, its all legislation now. As a matter of interest did you contact local politicians trying to change this BEFORE it became law?

What will a demonstration achieve, sher we both know the Government and Gardai have it in for us and wont make it cheaper or easier so what will it achieve?

We may make the papers and be painted as a bunch of crazed gunmen marching on the Dail. That'll serve us well.

I have 4 shotguns now costing 320 euros to license thats up from 129. A bit more than the price of a pint!!

Are they all 12 guage?

And forget an election the next crowd of muppets will do exactly the same inspite of any promises you'll get from them now

So again what will we get out of our demonstration? I thought the purpose of a demonstration was to show the government how many votes they are losing and showing the opposition how many they can gain. If we are doing neither then its a bit of a waste of time no?

BornToKill

bmcm71 wrote: »

i didn't think it was fair that I had to pay extra for those 2 either but do you think the new license fees are fairer?

Why are the new license fees unfair in your opinion? Everyone pays the same regardless of what type of gun they have. Can't say fairer than that.

Maybe you'd tell us what you think would be a fair fee structure?

bmcm71

Hi C-note I hear what you're saying but the reality is that handguns are ten a penny on the streets and few if any are as a result of legal ones being stolen. Certinly u can conceal a hangun easily but chop the barrels and stock of my Beretta and its not too big either!! Everyone who has a gun should be able to use it safely and properly so maybe there was an opportunity to have safety courses made obligatory before getting a license. That I would see as a positive step but thats not what the legislation is about (I think)

Sparks

c-note wrote: »

Unlike rifles and shotguns they are only used for target shooting sport (i hope).
So i support my government in introducing any legislation which will make all types of guns/ gun liscences harder to obtain.

If it made illegal guns harder to get, we'd all back it.
All these laws do is make it harder to licence a firearm.
Last I checked, the criminals didn't licence theirs to begin with.

as a side note, i think that it should be illegal to display an airsoft gun in public, with penalties on a par with real guns

That's how the law has been since 1990. And before that, too, but through case law and precedent rather than through statute.

kippy

bmcm71 wrote: »

Hi C-note I hear what you're saying but the reality is that handguns are ten a penny on the streets and few if any are as a result of legal ones being stolen. Certinly u can conceal a hangun easily but chop the barrels and stock of my Beretta and its not too big either!! Everyone who has a gun should be able to use it safely and properly so maybe there was an opportunity to have safety courses made obligatory before getting a license. That I would see as a positive step but thats not what the legislation is about (I think)

C-note stance would be indicitive of the majority of the voting population (whether it is correct or you agree with it or not).
Politicians generally dont pander to the will of minority groups and I have to say the legal gun holders out there are really among a minority group. No matter what party gets into government.
The majority appear to want to see less guns around and it more difficult to get them. That appears to be the reality and it appears that is what policy is going for.

Half-cocked

In the current climate I think we've been bloody lucky the license fee has been set at only €80 for 3 years. If theres 250K firearms in the country then thats 20 million to the exchequer every 3 years. I'm surprized the revenue making oppertunity wasn't exploited more. We'd all whinge and moan about the increase, but most of us would still cough up in the end rather than lose our firearms.

I'm just hoping that the new system will result in a better service to us by the Gardai, at least we'd be getting something for all the money we pour into the State coffers.

Sparks

bmcm71 wrote: »

do you think the new license fees are fairer?

Yes.
Well. To be more accurate, I think it's fair that the licence fees be equal for all firearms owners.
I still think that we don't get a single thing back in return for the money, which is unfair, but that's not quite the same thing, it's a bit further up the chain if you follow me.

I think we could organise for all gun clubs, ranges etc to have a protest day in Dublin.

To do what, if even an election won't help?
And where the hell were all these protesting people when it would have been of some use to protest? (Actually, I can tell you, they were busily poo-pooing the idea that any change could actually happen and deriding those of us who were pointing out the incoming ****storm as chicken littles...)

freddieot

An election may help to sort it out. At least changing the Muppets might improve the Show !

We need an end to this FFF Dynasty. At least a Labour dominated Government for example would be aware that times have changed, people are pissed off (not just shooters) and they need to show a big improvement within their first 4 year term or the Muppets might change again. From a firearms perspective, a change could certainly not hurt us.

I agree with you on one very valid point. Only since the extra cost (minor) for shotgun owners and the additonal security requirements for those who have not had the cop-on to already have a safe and proper security precautions has become publicised, have many sections of our shooting community starting shouting from their hind legs about the injustice of it all.

Very little comment about all that when they thought it was just the pistol shooters that would be affected.

bmcm71

I think we should have followed the UK where all shotguns are held on 1 certificate costing £50 for 5 years. It is a far simpler system for anyone wanting to buy, sell or trade-in a gun. Also whats to stop the firearms dealer handling the substitution. We live in a computer age where every dealer could have a log-in to the Garda site and do the substitution, sale, whever on line. Faster, less cost etc. Its not unusual for a shooting enthuasiast to have more than 1 shotgun or rifle. Clay, game, foxes whatever. Rifles for deer, small game, target why not put them all on the one cert as well. This new system is going to cost more in time for the Gardai, slow the whole process for obtaining licenses and cost people more money

BornToKill

c-note wrote: »

as a side note, i think that it should be illegal to display an airsoft gun in public

Although it might have been illegal to do this before, depending on the context, it has been made specifically illegal to possess one in public since 1 August this year.

Separately, I'd still love to hear this alternative and fairer license fee structure bmcm71 wants introduced...

Sparks

bmcm71 wrote: »

I think we should have followed the UK where all shotguns are held on 1 certificate costing £50 for 5 years.

Just shotguns? Or all firearms?
See, I'd call that a freudian slip myself.

(And we've been calling for OPOL for years in case you missed it).

Also whats to stop the firearms dealer handling the substitution.

The same thing that stops the farmer from letting the fox guard the henhouse...

We live in a computer age

You'd never know it to look at the majority of shooters in this country though.


Look, it's not that we disagree with you bmcm, it's that you're around about six years late to the party and you're saying all the same things we started saying five years ago, and the tone is as if you're blaming those of us who saw this coming and tried to warn you, for actually precipitating the problem to begin with!

Bananaman

nobody from the shooting groups have taken him to task and defended our rights and our reputations

not true - none of the groups who 'represent' the sports defended our rights and reputations. They all defended the specific sport(s) and or firearm(s) that they represent - not shooting as a whole - or those that take part in it, as a whole.

Some shooting groups, if the Dail and Seanad transcripts are to be believed, actively supported the Minister in some of the prohbitions in this legislation.

A group of individual firearms owners, with the blessing of many other firearms owners, clubs and associations did however, take the Minister to task and fought this tooth and nail on the proposed prohibitions (licensing of handguns for use in sport and the sport of IPSC Handgun) until they were shot down (pun intended) by the very associations whose jobs they were doing.

It was then and is still now an utter disgrace that this legislation was not fought by more people.

(I know, I know, some of ye got all squeaky assed about personal imports being restricted and that pistols had to be designed for the Olympics rather that simply saying you had to have the correct tie to take part but I'm afraid ye kind of missed the point while trying to decide if any of the commas were out of place - now here we are)

B'Man

CJhaughey

c-note wrote: »

i know this may not be a popular post in the shooting forum,
but as a member of the public i'd like to see handguns banned.
Unlike rifles and shotguns they are only used for target shooting sport (i hope).
So i support my government in introducing any legislation which will make all types of guns/ gun liscences harder to obtain.

A gun is only dangerous in the hands of someone who dosnt know how to handle it, or who has bad intentions. and handguns are tooooo easy to conceal in the case that they fall into the wrong hands.

as a side note, i think that it should be illegal to display an airsoft gun in public, with penalties on a par with real guns, either that or they should all be illuminous yellow.

In case you may think i'm some kind of anti-gun advocate, i'm not, i own a gun.

Well my take on this is that making gun licenses harder to get is not going to make any kind of difference to gun crime, the chaps using handguns against each other are not buying them from RFD's here nor are they applying for fullbore pistol licenses from the local Super, so to what purpose does making the licensing harder to obtain actually do?
Look over the water at the UK and notice that they have exactly no licensed handguns in civilian ownership do you think it has had any effect on gun crime? in fact the use of handguns in gun crime has gone up since the 1997 ban.

You also state that handguns are only used in sport so what is the need to ban them? I think that attitude belittles the people that are involved in target shooting in this country and the sport which many have given huge amounts of time to to better themselves and represent their country.
It is like saying motorcycling kills people better ban bikes and roadracing as it's only a sport anyway Sorry Joey Dunlop it's only a sport so it doesn't matter.

I fully agree with you with the production of a firearm in public whether it is an imitation or a real firearm the penalty should be swift and severe.
Yellow paint won't solve anything, custodial sentences would certainly make a difference.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

not true - none of the groups who 'represent' the sports defended our rights and reputations. They all defended the specific sport(s) and or firearm(s) that they represent - not shooting as a whole - or those that take part in it, as a whole.

Again with this. :rolleyes:
B'man, do you go to a hospital with a broken arm and then berate the janitor for mopping the floor instead of giving you an IV and painkillers and splinting the arm?
Specific NGBs defending their specific sports is how it's meant to be.
Had any NGB tried to "look after" other sports, you'd have seen a major catfight (hell, use the search function and look for the NRPAI threads in here if you want a very watered-down taster of what we'd have seen)

Some shooting groups, if the Dail and Seanad transcripts are to be believed

Not the transcripts (ooooh, but aren't you nice at the spinning?), but if the people who were speaking are to be believed.
(And the people speaking were the ones introducing the ban as a political I'm-tough-on-crime-vote-for-me measure, don't forget)

I'm afraid ye kind of missed the point

When? In 2004 when we said all this was coming down the pipe and people who later went on to be big noises in the IPSA rubbished the concerns as silly? Or in 2006, when people went to the FCP conference and found a way to get IPSA to the FCP, even if through the SSAI? Or in 2008, when people who only wanted to shout at the minister turned up the the FCP seminar on the range&club SIs and wasted enormous amounts of time there with useless shouting, and made the handgun ban worse in the process, and managed to totally miss the point that the Range and Club SIs had far more potential to shut down all our sports than the handgun ban ever did? :rolleyes:

You know, for someone who's all hot and bothered about all shooters standing together B'man, it's damn hard to avoid noticing that whenever they do stand together, you start thinking it's a target-rich environment.

freddieot

C-Note,

As an outsider who is ant-handgun, an opinion I can understand by the way, would you agree that one should licence the owner and not the gun ?

The reality is that the majority of crimes in this country are committed with shotguns, not pistols. The shotguns are invariably stolen, cut down, easy enough to conceal and of course lethal at close range.

Privately licensed pistols are rarely stolen due to the high levels of security required before anyone can even get a pistol. There are however, as has already been stated, thousands and thousands of illegal handguns floating around the country. That's the handgun problem. The Minister of course knows this, but it's good publicity to focus public attention on what they can control and not what they have lost control of.

Most handgun owners take part in various competitions both here in Ireland and internationally and care as much about their sport as any Clay shooter or .22 or Airgun Target Shooters.

I firmly believe that some of the new requirements are a step in the right direction but I also believe that if a person is suitable to have say a pump action shotgun then they are also suitable to have a handgun.

I don't know what kind of gun you have yourself but I know my Sister, who hates guns, would not like you living next door to her anymore than she would like a guy who owns a handgun living next to her. There are no good guns and bad guns only suitable appicants and non-suitable applicants.

Fair play for coming on here and exposing your view (not popular on this forum of course), as it shows how the general public think. However, as a gun owner, hopefully you caa now see a bit better the the truth behind the whole handgun scare mongering issue.

Grizzly 45

bmcm71 wrote: »

I think we should have followed the UK where all shotguns are held on 1 certificate costing £50 for 5 years. It is a far simpler system for anyone wanting to buy, sell or trade-in a gun. Also whats to stop the firearms dealer handling the substitution. We live in a computer age where every dealer could have a log-in to the Garda site and do the substitution, sale, whever on line. Faster, less cost etc. Its not unusual for a shooting enthuasiast to have more than 1 shotgun or rifle. Clay, game, foxes whatever. Rifles for deer, small game, target why not put them all on the one cert as well. This new system is going to cost more in time for the Gardai, slow the whole process for obtaining licenses and cost people more money

Brilliant idea indeed.
However when was the last time you saw an Irish Govt electronic project [a] work deliverd on time and within budget [c] not be abused by the people using itd] not increase 100 fold the paperwork, [e]Be 98% secure to data loss to the wrong people by accident or design.

Small other point on is this the end???
It is if we let it be.If you look at the UK and USA.Iwas in the US when Bill Klintoons "crime bill" came in and the doom sayers were at it about the end of owning semi auto rifles and high cap mags.People simply,adapted,improvised and overcame!! No pistol grip,fine get a thumbhole stock.
Need more than 10 shots,carry extra mags,Take off the flash hider and bayonet lug,and you are fine,etc.Or move like I did to a more gun friendlier state.
This went on untill George Bush showed up and promptly binned this legislation.[good man for that. ] The Uk,ok they banned semi auto rifles,straight pull became the norm,banned pistols,folks now use six shot black powder copies of their modern revolvers. There is now even a copy of a 1911 freak pistol with a 12 in barrel.If the UK can do somthing so can we.

4gun

kippy wrote: »

C-note stance would be indicitive of the majority of the voting population (whether it is correct or you agree with it or not).
Politicians generally dont pander to the will of minority groups and I have to say the legal gun holders out there are really among a minority group. No matter what party gets into government.
The majority appear to want to see less guns around and it more difficult to get them. That appears to be the reality and it appears that is what policy is going for.

no the majority want to see violent gun crime been tackled and the perpetrators of these crimes brought to justice Mr Ahern just used this as an excuse to disarm law abiding citizens

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

no the majority want to see violent gun crime been tackled and the perpetrators of these crimes brought to justice Mr Ahern just used this as an excuse to disarm law abiding citizens

He didn't even do that; any more than taking away a football would "disarm" a GAA team.

bmcm71

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Brilliant idea indeed.
However when was the last time you saw an Irish Govt electronic project [a] work deliverd on time and within budget [c] not be abused by the people using itd] not increase 100 fold the paperwork, [e]Be 98% secure to data loss to the wrong people by accident or design.

Grizzly I hate to admit it but you're dead right. What was I thinking!! I despair of this country.......

4gun

how many signatures would it take to cause a review of the law( its some thing like 1,000,000 for EU law)
Or have i taken leave of reality all together:D

bmcm71

4gun you could be onto something there. I don't believe its actually that many for national laws. 10,000? Any legal eagles out there?

Grizzly 45

1million is right 4gun,but it is being "considerd" by our leaders in Brussels as a law,or right of appeal .Wouldnt want to let the peasents get ideas that they might have rights now.. would they???:rolleyes: