when do you apply

PJ Hunter

In early July 2009 the Garda Commissioner will write to each licence holder and will outline the period of time that the licence has been extended for.



He will also invite the holder when they can apply for a new firearms licence - up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence prior = before.



All existing firearms licence holders will not now be required to renew their licences on form PC20 and instead will be required to apply under the new legislation - on the new application form FCA1 - following the expiry of their extended licences.





catch 22 pardon the pun. bit confused
apply after the expiry of the extended license is expired? will I have to give up the guns and wait.


3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extention. before the date?

Sparks

PJ, you get a letter telling you when your extended licence expires. You apply anything up to three months before that date.

(The letter's text could be seen as confusing, yes, but the legislation trumps the letter. It's like the idea that because the old licence said "carry" on it, that you could carry a firearm down O'Connell street. Typos in forms and letters do not rewrite statute law )

PJ Hunter

Sparks wrote: »

PJ, you get a letter telling you when your extended licence expires. You apply anything up to three months before that date.

(The letter's text could be seen as confusing, yes, but the legislation trumps the letter. It's like the idea that because the old licence said "carry" on it, that you could carry a firearm down O'Connell street. Typos in forms and letters do not rewrite statute law )

typos can send lads down to the station after their extention is finished, looking for their license. some typo:eek: to make at this stage of the game.


10/6/2009 - Please see the following statement released today form the Department of Justice on how the new Licensing will work and the Transition.

http://www.nasrc.ie/Transition Phase 3 yr licence.pdf

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

PJ, you get a letter telling you when your extended licence expires. You apply anything up to three months before that date.

(The letter's text could be seen as confusing, yes, but the legislation trumps the letter. It's like the idea that because the old licence said "carry" on it, that you could carry a firearm down O'Connell street. Typos in forms and letters do not rewrite statute law )

________________________________________________________________

Sparks correct me if I am wrong, your Quote[Sparks] You apply anything up to three months before that date.

Up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence.

Then all that received the end of Oct as expiry date could not comply. No forms, no guide lines, no leadership.

Sikamick

clivej

My FO told me that you are to apply 3 months before the expiry/extention date. So as my extention is until the 31 October then I should have put in for my license before now, which I have done

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

________________________________________________________________

Sparks correct me if I am wrong, your Quote[Sparks] You apply anything up to three months before that date.

Up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence.

Then all that received the end of Oct as expiry date could not comply. No forms, no guide lines, no leadership.

Sikamick

It works like this Mick.

Lets say the 31st July 2009 is 'X'
Your new extension is 'Z'
You can apply up to 3 months before 'Z' we'll call that 'Y'


X <

---

> Y <

---

apply sometime here

---

> Z

Now for those with restricted firearms or suspected :rolleyes: restricted firearms there's a small problem because Y actually equals X and there's 1 month gone out of the three.

As for your other little tantrums about leadership and such, well all this has been explained over and over and over and over and over again.

And nobody needs guidelines for this, it's very simple. In fact I guarantee (not having seen them mind) that none of this will be in the guidelines.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

PJ, you get a letter telling you when your extended licence expires. You apply anything up to three months before that date.

(The letter's text could be seen as confusing, yes, but the legislation trumps the letter. It's like the idea that because the old licence said "carry" on it, that you could carry a firearm down O'Connell street. Typos in forms and letters do not rewrite statute law )

The text in the letter is fine, PJ is referring to a document issued by the DoJ about the transition to teh new system.

To be fair PJ, not many 'lads' are going to have read that document and will instead have read their letter which is very clear.

PJ Hunter

to be fair rrpc, takes one lad with the swine flu to frickin spread it. wait and see did it escape

Sikamick

Quote[PJHunter] up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence, prior = before.

Not one month, not two months, it states three months (BEFORE) this was impossible to comply with, No Applications Forms, No Guidelines.

There is also the question of equality, as in the name of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law reform. How equal is the person that got October 2009 extension to the person who has got until June or July 2010, not very equal I say.

My opinion (Not Sh*t - Stirring) I hope I am allowed to have an opinion.

Sikamick

TMC121

It would appear that there is a distinct conflict on these letters. Your letter states that you have to apply 3 months prior to the expire date of your new extended license. This would indicate that you have time, at least 3 months, to apply.
The letter also states you now have to apply on the new form FAC1. Not available until recently. Extension letters for the first round expire in October, not enough time between the first round of extensions and what was stated by the Commissioner in his letter.

The letter also stated current firearms holders would have to apply under the new legislation following the expiry of their extended licences.

The legislation states you will need to apply on the prescribed form.
35.—Section 9 (as substituted by section 53 of the Act of 2006) of
the Act of 1964 is amended by the substitution for subsection (6) of 35
the following:
“(6) An application for renewal of a firearm certificate shall
be in the prescribed form.”

You would think that this is straight forward but by reading the letter it clearly states prior and expiry.

BornToKill

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote[PJHunter] up to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence, prior = before.

Not one month, not two months, it states three months (BEFORE) this was impossible to comply with, No Applications Forms, No Guidelines.

There is also the question of equality, as in the name of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law reform. How equal is the person that got October 2009 extension to the person who has got until June or July 2010, not very equal I say.

The important part of that to me is the words 'up to'. It does not require that you you have applied at least three months before the expiry of your extension. It requires that you apply sometime in the three months before your extension runs out. If you leave it until the last day - and you are entitled to do that - it is reasonable to assume that you will have an unlicensed firearm on your hands for a period of time while your application is being considered. It's in your interest to get your application in soon to avoid that situation.

As to the 'equality' or not of extensions of different length, the process is set out in the legislation. The background reason - as I'm sure you know - is to split the renewals up so that they don't all fall due on the one day. Given that these are free extensions and that everyone (at least with non restricted firearms) had a chance of getting an 11 month extension (the maximum) then it's hard to argue with it. It would be like someone winning second prize in a raffle and complaining that they didn't get first. As long as the draw was fair then surely there is no problem?

Sikamick

BornToKill wrote: »

The important part of that to me is the words 'up to'. It does not require that you you have applied at least three months before the expiry of your extension. It requires that you apply sometime in the three months before your extension runs out. If you leave it until the last day - and you are entitled to do that - it is reasonable to assume that you will have an unlicensed firearm on your hands for a period of time while your application is being considered. It's in your interest to get your application in soon to avoid that situation.

As to the 'equality' or not of extensions of different length, the process is set out in the legislation. The background reason - as I'm sure you know - is to split the renewals up so that they don't all fall due on the one day. Given that these are free extensions and that everyone (at least with non restricted firearms) had a chance of getting an 11 month extension (the maximum) then it's hard to argue with it. It would be like someone winning second prize in a raffle and complaining that they didn't get first. As long as the draw was fair then surely there is no problem?

_________________________________________________________________

As long as the draw is fair (agreed), that is if one was given the chance/choice to buy the ticket in the first place.

I do understand the difficulty for the powers that be in given extensions that would allow for the division of renewals/applications, if it was not for the way the wording of the Transition document and the extensions seem to contradict one and other.

Taken the extension letter as being the latest piece of paper we have received, the wording (up to= equal to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence, prior = before.) in any mans language is 3 month before the date of expiry, it does not mean within that period.

Again my opinion only, but it does leave it open to interpretation and probably will need legal people to give the correct one to get it sorted.

Sikamick

PJ Hunter

X <

---

> Y <

---

apply sometime here

---

> Z

X <

---

> Z <

---

apply sometime here

---

> Y

fat-tony

Mick,

You really are burning up a lot of time on this issue and I, for one, am going to ignore all further posts on this... after one last attempt at explaining the intention;)
In the brave new world of firearms licensing the Superintendent is given a maximum of three months in which to make a decision on any particular application. He/She is given a statutory period in which to say yes or no (and provide a reason for saying no). The Super/FO/internal Garda process now has to complete in three months maximum. Previously you could be stalled for almost any length of time and you could not go in and demand a decision. Now you have a statutory right to a decision in 3 months maximum. With me so far?
The extension letters could have been worded better, granted. But live with it - there are far more important things in the world to be concerned about.:rolleyes:
You are advised in the letter to apply up to three months before your licence runs out in order to provide the Superintendent the maximum three months in which to make a decision (on renewal/reapplication), before your licence runs out by default and you are then in a legal limbo. Obviously, in the case of licences extended to October 31st, there was never a full three month period as the letters only started issuing in the first week of August. But the intention would be, presumably, that the Supers would make a decision quicker than the allowed three months, so as not to create a legal problem for them or for the applicant.
I'm suggesting that your interpretation of the letter is that you count back three months from the date of your extension and that you must apply before then. I'm further suggesting that your interpretation is plain wrong;)
Let's please not continue down this road..... pleeeeaaasse:eek:

clivej

fat-tony wrote: »

Mick,

You really are burning up a lot of time on this issue and I, for one, am going to ignore all further posts on this... after one last attempt at explaining the intention;)
In the brave new world of firearms licensing the Superintendent is given a maximum of three months in which to make a decision on any particular application. He/She is given a statutory period in which to say yes or no (and provide a reason for saying no). The Super/FO/internal Garda process now has to complete in three months maximum. Previously you could be stalled for almost any length of time and you could not go in and demand a decision. Now you have a statutory right to a decision in 3 months maximum. With me so far?
The extension letters could have been worded better, granted. But live with it - there are far more important things in the world to be concerned about.:rolleyes:
You are advised in the letter to apply up to three months before your licence runs out in order to provide the Superintendent the maximum three months in which to make a decision (on renewal/reapplication), before your licence runs out by default and you are then in a legal limbo. Obviously, in the case of licences extended to October 31st, there was never a full three month period as the letters only started issuing in the first week of August. But the intention would be, presumably, that the Supers would make a decision quicker than the allowed three months, so as not to create a legal problem for them or for the applicant.
I'm suggesting that your interpretation of the letter is that you count back three months from the date of your extension and that you must apply before then. I'm further suggesting that your interpretation is plain wrong;)
Let's please not continue down this road..... pleeeeaaasse:eek:

And that what my FO told me. 3 months before your extention date or before your license runs out.

Sikamick

fat-tony wrote: »

Mick,

You really are burning up a lot of time on this issue and I, for one, am going to ignore all further posts on this... after one last attempt at explaining the intention;)
In the brave new world of firearms licensing the Superintendent is given a maximum of three months in which to make a decision on any particular application. He/She is given a statutory period in which to say yes or no (and provide a reason for saying no). The Super/FO/internal Garda process now has to complete in three months maximum. Previously you could be stalled for almost any length of time and you could not go in and demand a decision. Now you have a statutory right to a decision in 3 months maximum. With me so far?
The extension letters could have been worded better, granted. But live with it - there are far more important things in the world to be concerned about.:rolleyes:
You are advised in the letter to apply up to three months before your licence runs out in order to provide the Superintendent the maximum three months in which to make a decision (on renewal/reapplication), before your licence runs out by default and you are then in a legal limbo. Obviously, in the case of licences extended to October 31st, there was never a full three month period as the letters only started issuing in the first week of August. But the intention would be, presumably, that the Supers would make a decision quicker than the allowed three months, so as not to create a legal problem for them or for the applicant.
I'm suggesting that your interpretation of the letter is that you count back three months from the date of your extension and that you must apply before then. I'm further suggesting that your interpretation is plain wrong;)
Let's please not continue down this road..... pleeeeaaasse:eek:

______________________________________________________________

Quote[fat-tony]The extension letters could have been worded better. Thanks Tony at least we agree on that.

Quote[fat-tony]I'm suggesting that your interpretation of the letter is that you count back three months from the date of your extension and that you must apply before then. I'm further suggesting that your interpretation is plain wrong;)Let's please not continue down this road..... pleeeeaaasse:eek:Again your interpretation and opinion, and no one else is entitled to think differently or have a different opinion.


Quote[fat-tony]Obviously, in the case of licences extended to October 31st, there was never a full three month period as the letters only started issuing in the first week of August. Thank you, we agree again

Quote[fat-tony]Let's please not continue down this road..... pleeeeaaasse:eek.Is this a forum for debate and discussion or can we only speak when we are spoken to. I never realised that boards had so many Mods

Sikamick

BornToKill

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

As long as the draw is fair (agreed), that is if one was given the chance/choice to buy the ticket in the first place.(up to= equal to 3 months prior to the date of expiry of the extended licence, prior = before.) in any mans language is 3 month before the date of expiry, it does not mean within that period.

Again my opinion only, but it does leave it open to interpretation and probably will need legal people to give the correct one to get it sorted.

But you do have a choice. No-one is obliging you to accept the free extension letters. No matter how long your extension is you can go into the station and apply for a three year license immediately. Tell them to keep their extension. Remember to hand the gun(s) into a dealer since they won't be licensed.

I can't follow your 'up to = prior = before' arguments. If you won't listen to anyone else when they try to explain what they think then maybe the best thing to do is to go to the 'legal people' you mention. You pay more attention, I find, when paying by the hour (or part thereof). We don't value what we get for free.

rrpc

Lads, this is a wind up. You can't seriously believe that someone is that stupid. I know I fell for it as well, but it's obvious it's a complete wind up.

I thought it was April 1st for a while there

Nice one Mick, you had us all fooled :pac:

PJ Hunter

TMC121 wrote: »

It would appear that there is a distinct conflict on these letters. Your letter states that you have to apply 3 months prior to the expire date of your new extended license. This would indicate that you have time, at least 3 months, to apply.
The letter also states you now have to apply on the new form FAC1. Not available until recently. Extension letters for the first round expire in October, not enough time between the first round of extensions and what was stated by the Commissioner in his letter.

The letter also stated current firearms holders would have to apply under the new legislation following the expiry of their extended licences.

The legislation states you will need to apply on the prescribed form.
35.—Section 9 (as substituted by section 53 of the Act of 2006) of
the Act of 1964 is amended by the substitution for subsection (6) of 35
the following:
“(6) An application for renewal of a firearm certificate shall
be in the prescribed form.”

You would think that this is straight forward but by reading the letter it clearly states prior and expiry.

+:o





The most profound effect on the firearms legislation was and always will be from people with big mouths and nothing between their ears. 2,000 signed the petition circulated at the Irish game and country fair-enough. ambiguous words cause confusion yup.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

Lads, this is a wind up. You can't seriously believe that someone is that stupid. I know I fell for it as well, but it's obvious it's a complete wind up.

I thought it was April 1st for a while there

Nice one Mick, you had us all fooled :pac:

FUBAR rrpc, you have me ROTFLMAO :D:D:D:D:D:D


Ambiguous words cause confusion in the eyes of the LAW.



Sikamick

Cass

Not directly related to thread but as good a place as any to put it. Heard through the grapevine that the licencing procedure is not up and running yet (no real shocker there) but that it may not be up and going till mid September at the earliest. No substitutions will be accepted or more to the point processed within the next few months. Only passing on what i heard so please no questions detailing specifics as i don't know anymore than what i've just posted.

Came from a reliable source who has been correct on all other info given to me. Don't mean to sound like a spy (as if ) but in keeping with boards guidelines i'm not naming names.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Came from a reliable source who has been correct on all other info given to me. Don't mean to sound like a spy (as if ) but in keeping with boards guidelines i'm not naming names.

Not to stick a pin in your scoop ezridax, but anyone with half a brain would figure that the system has stalled, seeing as half the data is missing.

It's not just us waiting on the guidelines you know In fact, we're the easy bit seeing as we have boards and a good few websites to keep us up to speed. (excluding Sikamick of course )

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Not to stick a pin in your scoop ezridax, but anyone with half a brain would figure that the system has stalled, seeing as half the data is missing.....

Its not a scoop, and again i'm only passing on what i was told. Unlike other posts where it is made up of speculation, guess work and "figuring out" this is fact. I (like others) already know that the system is stalled, sure my FO told me as much when i dropped in my application 2 weeks ago. He told me it may not be processed for a couple of weeks but i was told today that the new system will definitely not be online till mid September. Just thought it was a useful piece of info to let people know, so they are not rushing to get applications in thinking thet are running out of time, but if these little bits of info are frowned upon or not welcome then i'll cease and desist.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Just thought it was a useful piece of info to let people know, so they are not rushing to get applications in thinking thet are running out of time, but if these little bits of info are frowned upon or not welcome then i'll cease and desist.

Don't get me wrong ezridax, it is welcome and not frowned on at all. Just that most of us have figured it out already. It really only affects those of us in the 31st October expiry date cohort and perhaps also the 30th November group.

Though maybe some haven't and it's worth repeating.

Cass

I'm not being bitchy rrpc, but lets face it not everyone is aware of all the facts. The mods went through the trouble of putting a big red announcement at the top of the forum yet people still post questions asking about subjects that are explained in the announcement or at least on another thread. How many threads do you suppose are on this forum that are repeated or of the same subject ( gun clubs, ranges, FCA1 questions, first gun, etc). I know that the language on some threads in relation to DOJ S.I. can be confusing or hard to read hence people asking for simple and plain english explanations or bottom lines.

I was half and half as to whether to post what i was told, cause usually someone else will post it or mention it but as previously mentioned sometimes its nice to hear something in straight forward English.

bunny shooter

ezridax,

I heard same from a reliable source too, Sept 15th to be exact

Was also told there will be a "grace period" allowed to those whose extensions expire on 31/10 as a result of the official delay

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

Not to stick a pin in your scoop ezridax, but anyone with half a brain would figure that the system has stalled, seeing as half the data is missing.

It's not just us waiting on the guidelines you know In fact, we're the easy bit seeing as we have boards and a good few websites to keep us up to speed. (excluding Sikamick of course )

Bit vindictive, seems mine isn't the only mask slipping

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

.....Just that most of us have figured it out already.......

Thats all i was trying to say Bunny. I can figure out that a bullet comes out of the end of a barrel but i'd sooner be told for definite.

Originally Posted by bunnyshooter

Was also told there will be a "grace period" allowed to those whose extensions expire on 31/10 as a result of the official delay

Was told the same. TBH i was a bit nervous of taking out a gun after 31/10 with no licence and the possibility of no extension. Was told that this "grace period" will apply but most likely the supers and licencing personel will put a push to get all those in the 31/10 bracket completed before the deadline.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Bit vindictive, seems mine isn't the only mask slipping

To be fair, that didn't read the way I intended

That's the problem with the typed word, it's a little bit one dimensional. My excuse anyway

Apologies to all concerned, it probably was a bit late for me to be composing posts. Perhaps we're all getting a bit tetchy with this interminable waiting

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

I'm not being bitchy rrpc, but lets face it not everyone is aware of all the facts. The mods went through the trouble of putting a big red announcement at the top of the forum yet people still post questions asking about subjects that are explained in the announcement or at least on another thread. How many threads do you suppose are on this forum that are repeated or of the same subject ( gun clubs, ranges, FCA1 questions, first gun, etc). I know that the language on some threads in relation to DOJ S.I. can be confusing or hard to read hence people asking for simple and plain english explanations or bottom lines.

Yeah, I agree it's a mess, not helped by people stirring things up and trying to confuse the issue further for fun (not meaning you :eek: or bunny :eek: :eek:).

I think it'd be a brave Super who tried to do somebody after 31st October for possession of an unlicensed firearm*. :pac:

*Providing of course that a licence was applied for

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Yeah, I agree it's a mess, not helped by people stirring things up and trying to confuse the issue further for fun (not meaning you :eek: or bunny :eek: :eek:).

I think it'd be a brave Super who tried to do somebody after 31st October for possession of an unlicensed firearm*. :pac:

*Providing of course that a licence was applied for

There is no need to tippy toe around what you want to say. If we all took everyone up wrong on what they say and stopped posting or started arguing this forum would die a swift death.

There is speculation of extended extensions, but its just that, speculation. You're right that it would be a cruel super to do someone for over running their extension, but its unlikely. Unfortunately its down to wait and see. If it does get up and going by September 15th it still leaves 6-7 weeks for processing. I personally never had to wait more than 3-4 weeks for any licence i have, so even with the new system i can't see it taking nearly 6 weeks to process. That only firearm they will be scrutinising will most likely be my pistol, the rest are rifles and shotguns. I'm up to scratch on security, have dealer records of ammo purchasing, usage, club attendance so i'm not expecting any problems.