Math Grinds

deathronan

Hello,

I just recently completed a degree in Mathematical Science in UL and I am about to start a Masters in Music Tech but I'm having a bit of a cash flow problem so I'm considering giving LC Maths and Applied Maths grinds to people in my local area.

I live at home with my parents and don't have a car so my ability to travel is limited. I was just wondering what is the best way to go about advertising it, how to prepare for lessons, what to charge and all the other stuff in between. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

TheDriver

with the recession, the grinds market has dipped somewhat. Be careful though, if they are coming to your house be aware that they could trip and sue you etc. Also child protection so never be alone with them (i.e. someone pottering around nearby etc). Cash at the lesson and no excuses. Also note you are not experienced as a teacher and need to be aware that although you know your maths backwards, you need to learn how to teach it (and believe you me, everyone thinks at first that they are brilliant at the subject hence brilliant at teaching it...)
Best of luck

gaeilgebeo

Ive been giving grinds and teaching for 6years. I dont agree as the above poster has said that grinds have taken a dip, I am busier than ever and in fact have seen an increase. Parents/Students realise that they must do well in exams now with the state of economy. Having said all this, I must stress that most parents expect a qualified experienced teacher who knows the syllabus and exam structure really well, when they are forking out for grinds.

deathronan

Cheers for the replys!

I understand that experience definitely goes a long way. I'm not going to go head first, straight into it, I'm going to give a few of my friends younger brothers and sisters a couple of free lessons first just get a feel for it and see if I'm up for the task and capable of explaining the logic behind it all with out over looking the stuff I'd take for granted.

The whole caution with the being left on your own with a student thing is something I've been been worried about because I remember my friend was giving guitar lessons before and that was one of the main things he stressed about to me when it comes to one on one tuition, he used to always leave the door to the room he was giving lessons in open so at least someone could be a third party to what is going on as there always someone pottering about the place.

Do any of you have any idea how much I should charge per hour when it comes down to it? I don't intend charging that much, just enough to get me through college with a bit of pocket money.

gaeilgebeo

I charge €30 for individual or group per hour. Have to agree though, I imagine parents will be reluctant to pay for grinds from somebody who is not an experienced teacher. Its a question parents always ask when they phone, i would say especially now when cash is harder to part with!. I have no doubt you know your maths inside out but its not the same as covering a junior or leaving cert syllabus and being practiced at exam structure and technique. Best of luck anyway

pjtb

I got grinds in Maths from someone who was not a qualified teacher. Half the parish were going to him at the time. It didn't seem to bother them!

Another teacher I got grinds of charged €40 an hour, for each person, regardless of numbers. I remember having a grind once where there were 8 people around the table (it was very squashed). So she earned €320 in one hour. The usual number per class was 5, so on average she got €200 p/h. She must have been loaded. She was good though!

gaeilgebeo

pjtb wrote: »

I got grinds in Maths from someone who was not a qualified teacher. Half the parish were going to him at the time. It didn't seem to bother them!

Another teacher I got grinds of charged €40 an hour, for each person, regardless of numbers. I remember having a grind once where there were 8 people around the table (it was very squashed). So she earned €320 in one hour. The usual number per class was 5, so on average she got €300 p/h. She must have been loaded. She was good though!

I charge €30 for groups of 4/5. Make no apologies for it. I always give a good grind with good notes. I wouldn't give up my time for anything less.

Eccles

Bloomin heck 120-320 an hour !!!???Speechless...I guess grinds with more than one attendee are the way to go...

gaeilgebeo

Eccles wrote: »

Bloomin heck 120-320 an hour !!!???Speechless...I guess grinds with more than one attendee are the way to go...

Definitley! I gave individual grinds for years and it was so draining in the evenings and I had to work 4 evenings for what i can earn 2 evenings now.

pjtb

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Definitley! I gave individual grinds for years and it was so draining in the evenings and I had to work 4 evenings for what i can earn 2 evenings now.

If someone of the non-teaching population read this, they may not be so sympathetic with those earning €100s.

I know with the teacher i mentioned, earning thousands every week in grinds, that a lot of people would have been thinking about reporting her to the taxman! Some people just see it as plain greedy. I don't see it that way myself really, but when a person works a full week for what a teacher could potentially earn in an hour, they are bound to be resentful.

gaeilgebeo

pjtb wrote: »

If someone of the non-teaching population read this, they may not be so sympathetic with those earning €100s.

I know with the teacher i mentioned, earning thousands every week in grinds, that a lot of people would have been thinking about reporting her to the taxman! Some people just see it as plain greedy. I don't see it that way myself really, but when a person works a full week for what a teacher could potentially earn in an hour, they are bound to be resentful.

Yeah there are always sour grapes, i dont earn thousands a week in grinds but what I do earn is well earned and it is more work after a days teaching. Therefore I couldn't give a fiddlers about what the non teaching profession think!

pjtb

If the parents/students are happy with what they are getting from the grinds, the price won't be as significant. It'll still be important, but if they see they are getting something valuable for the money they've paid they're usually willing to fork out the €s. The 1000s of € a week teacher is widely known as being top class, otherwise no one would look at her twice due to her price.

gaeilgebeo

Exactly. If parents/students want/need the results then they are willing to pay. If you are charging €30 etc per grind, it has to be done well.

pjtb

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Exactly. If parents/students want/need the results then they are willing to pay. If you are charging €30 etc per grind, it has to be done well.

Some will also say that if the price of everything else is falling, the price of grinds should too! They have a point!

gaeilgebeo

pjtb wrote: »

Some will also say that if the price of everything else is falling, the price of grinds should too! They have a point!

I have taken enough of a cut in my salary without lowering the cost of my grinds. Students are paying for my professional service. You wouldn't go in to a doctor/dentist and ask them to give you a cut price. Same difference. In fact i've considered increasing my price.

pjtb

I agree with you gaeilgebeo, I don't personally think that grinds fees should be reduced, I was just saying that others may think they should be. Students choose to get grinds, and quality can't be got for half nothing.

gaeilgebeo

I dont advertise for grinds, people come to me. I wouldn't dream of lowering my price, if you don't put value on your own work then others won't either, including the students getting the grinds.
I understand that people may feel fees should be reduced etc....but to me thats just sour grapes....
As for the taxman, i've been there and there is damn all the taxman can do when you're being paid in cash....

mrboswell

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I charge €30 for groups of 4/5. Make no apologies for it. I always give a good grind with good notes. I wouldn't give up my time for anything less.

You are selling yourself way short though...
Some people out there, not me, are getting 50 p/h

clartharlear

mrboswell wrote: »

You are selling yourself way short though...
Some people out there, not me, are getting 50 p/h

€50 between 2 or 3 or 4 is very reasonable. Think of what your time is worth, as a professional, which is what an experienced, fully qualified teacher is. And I'd be surprised if your "hour" meant that you worked only 60 minutes.
I wouldn't charge more than €30 cash for one person unless I was certain I was very special though. (I probably am, like, I'm just not terribly certain yet! )

mrboswell

clartharlear wrote: »

€50 between 2 or 3 or 4 is very reasonable. Think of what your time is worth, as a professional, which is what an experienced, fully qualified teacher is. And I'd be surprised if your "hour" meant that you worked only 60 minutes.
I wouldn't charge more than €30 cash for one person unless I was certain I was very special though. (I probably am, like, I'm just not terribly certain yet! )

As I said above - not me, however my hour finishes when I finish what I planned to get through, usually between an your and a quarter and an hour and a half.

If you are charging €50 between 2 or 3 or 4 I'd advise students and parents alike to jump at it. If you are not certain if you are good enough then you don't deserve top dollar. Most people that get grinds for their kids want to gain confidence from a qualified professional that will give an honest opinion on the student's potential and what they are likely to achieve in examinations. If I give grinds to a student that I feel is not working enough I tell parents that I can continue to give grinds but that it will have limited effect.

Personally I would charge €40 (€50 if I had to travel outside my area to counter being stuck in traffic) and only do one-to-one.

If you really want to make money 2 or 3 students is the way to go though.

TheDriver

I agree, I never had complaints regarding my price and always had a queue for my services. Also I think you charge the same for everyone, I charged the 40 if they were OL JC or HL LC though some argue you should charge less for JC, well my plumber charges for his time no matter what he does so I do the same.
At end of it all, if i was too dear I would have no clients.

w123

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I have taken enough of a cut in my salary without lowering the cost of my grinds.QUOTE]

No you haven't. Unless you are working for a private school in which case perhaps you have.

You have been asked to pay a more equitable portion of the gold plated pension that you will end up with and have been hit with income tax levies like everyone.

As to not paying tax on what appears to be close to another wage, I won't make a judgement on that but be very careful; in these dire economic times the Revenue will be looking at everything...

gaeilgebeo

w123 wrote: »

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I have taken enough of a cut in my salary without lowering the cost of my grinds.QUOTE]

No you haven't. Unless you are working for a private school in which case perhaps you have.

You have been asked to pay a more equitable portion of the gold plated pension that you will end up with and have been hit with income tax levies like everyone.

As to not paying tax on what appears to be close to another wage, I won't make a judgement on that but be very careful; in these dire economic times the Revenue will be looking at everything...

Thats your own opinion which you are more than entitled to. My salary is down a significant amount due to these levies therefore I see no problem in making that money back through grinds at a fee that matches the service I am providing.

As for the Revenue, dire economic times or not, there is very little they can do to teachers giving grinds. As I've said, I have been there before. Also there are a lot more areas of tax evasion from the fat cats of society that the Revenue will be concerned with as opposed to teachers earning extra cash on grinds! I for one won't be losing any sleep over it!

w123

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

w123 wrote: »

Thats your own opinion which you are more than entitled to. My salary is down a significant amount due to these levies therefore I see no problem in making that money back through grinds at a fee that matches the service I am providing.

As for the Revenue, dire economic times or not, there is very little they can do to teachers giving grinds. As I've said, I have been there before. Also there are a lot more areas of tax evasion from the fat cats of society that the Revenue will be concerned with as opposed to teachers earning extra cash on grinds! I for one won't be losing any sleep over it!

So - you have had no cut in salary, but think that because you have taken a cut in take home pay, like everybody, that it's OK to make that up by not paying tax on your additional earnings, with an attitude like that we'll be in these dire economic times for a lot longer than we should.

Neither the Revenue nor I give a fiddlers about wether or not you give grinds in fact we both think that you should charge a fee that reflects your, no doubt, excellent service - fair play very entreprenurial of you - just pay the tax due - with proper planning it could be very easily minimised.

I take it from your reply that before these levies were introduced you had no problem in paying the tax due on your additional earnings, or in fact have you always been a tax cheat?

gaeilgebeo

w123 wrote: »

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

So - you have had no cut in salary, but think that because you have taken a cut in take home pay, like everybody, that it's OK to make that up by not paying tax on your additional earnings, with an attitude like that we'll be in these dire economic times for a lot longer than we should.

Neither the Revenue nor I give a fiddlers about wether or not you give grinds in fact we both think that you should charge a fee that reflects your, no doubt, excellent service - fair play very entreprenurial of you - just pay the tax due - with proper planning it could be very easily minimised.

I take it from your reply that before these levies were introduced you had no problem in paying the tax due on your additional earnings, or in fact have you always been a tax cheat?

No I have never paid any tax on grinds. And I don't ever intend to. I think it hilarious that you think teachers giving grinds will be a cause for "these dire economic times for a lot longer". Its hardly putting a big hole in the government purse.

I pay more than enough tax to the current monkies that are "running" this country. Why should I pay more tax to a government who has backdated the education system in this country by about 20years through cutbacks as well as leaving thousands of unemployed teachers?

I make no apologies and will give grinds for many years to come

w123

I'm sure that you will, and if you think that this kind of stroke pulling attitude isn't what has got this country where it is then you're not the kind of teacher that I would like teaching my kids.

Another generation of 'a sure it's only a few grinds what harm?'

Do you think that if you paid the tax then there might be the money to invest in education - that doesn't go on teachers salaries.

Don't bother replying I have no interest in hearing the views of one of the most protected employees regarding the economy.

You work what? 40 weeks a year, finish at 3 or 4, have seen your salary increase by over 60% in the last 10 years, can't get fired, and yet think that you're entitled to defraud the system - you make me sick.

gaeilgebeo

w123 wrote: »

I'm sure that you will, and if you think that this kind of stroke pulling attitude isn't what has got this country where it is then you're not the kind of teacher that I would like teaching my kids.

Another generation of 'a sure it's only a few grinds what harm?'

Do you think that if you paid the tax then there might be the money to invest in education - that doesn't go on teachers salaries.

Don't bother replying I have no interest in hearing the views of one of the most protected employees regarding the economy.

You work what? 40 weeks a year, finish at 3 or 4, have seen your salary increase by over 60% in the last 10 years, can't get fired, and yet think that you're entitled to defraud the system - you make me sick.

Well you're entitled to feel sick about the whole thing. I personally wouldn't want to teach children with such teacher hating parents!

"Protected employees""Cant get fired"- your information on the teaching sector is way outdated! I don't "finish" at 3 or 4. I may leave the school at that time but the job of a teacher doesn't end there. Defrauding the system by giving grinds??? Hilarious....

lauralee28

w123 wrote: »

I'm sure that you will, and if you think that this kind of stroke pulling attitude isn't what has got this country where it is then you're not the kind of teacher that I would like teaching my kids.

Another generation of 'a sure it's only a few grinds what harm?'

Do you think that if you paid the tax then there might be the money to invest in education - that doesn't go on teachers salaries.

Don't bother replying I have no interest in hearing the views of one of the most protected employees regarding the economy.

You work what? 40 weeks a year, finish at 3 or 4, have seen your salary increase by over 60% in the last 10 years, can't get fired, and yet think that you're entitled to defraud the system - you make me sick.

You really have no clue of the actual job a teacher does from the above post! You make it sound like such a "cushy number". If it is so well protected, great salary, only work 40 hours per week and get a gold plated pension, as you put it, why did you yourself not go into this wonderful profession? Biggest case of sour grapes I've read on any thread!

Hillel

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Well you're entitled to feel sick about the whole thing. I personally wouldn't want to teach children with such teacher hating parents!

"Protected employees""Cant get fired"- your information on the teaching sector is way outdated! I don't "finish" at 3 or 4. I may leave the school at that time but the job of a teacher doesn't end there. Defrauding the system by giving grinds??? Hilarious....

W123's post wasn't teacher bashing. I am certain that many others, teachers, pupils, parents would find your post offensive and self-serving. Indeed, the whole tone of this thread is appalling.

In private industry employees cannot take up work, outside working hours, where there is a potential conflict of interest. It's high time this was brought in to the teaching profession. It is entirely unacceptable that some teachers are ripping off the state helping students cover topics that should have been adequately covered in the classroom.

The current system, with totally inadequate performance measurement for teachers, even encourages mediocrity. There's even an in-built reward for inadequate teaching as it creates the market for grinds.

mrboswell

Hillel wrote: »

W123's post wasn't teacher bashing. I am certain that many others, teachers, pupils, parents would find your post offensive and self-serving. Indeed, the whole tone of this thread is appalling.

In private industry employees cannot take up work, outside working hours, where there is a potential conflict of interest. It's high time this was brought in to the teaching profession. It is entirely unacceptable that some teachers are ripping off the state helping students cover topics that should have been adequately covered in the classroom.

The current system, with totally inadequate performance measurement for teachers, even encourages mediocrity. There's even an in-built reward for inadequate teaching as it creates the market for grinds.

I disagree in some aspects.
Firstly the thread has gone a bit off topic but lets be honest about - we all know the education system isn't perfect. In a 2-tier system where there are fee-paying/grind schools there will always be, as you put it, a conflict of interest. You say "In private industry employees cannot take up work, outside working hours, where there is a potential conflict of interest. Do you really believe that say accountants don't do nixers as well as many countless other sectors. Sorry but I have to laugh at that.
Most teachers are indeed under pressure with class numbers and resources so it's not always as cut and dry to say its a conflict of interest if teachers give grinds. If a teacher was to give students in his/her own school outside of school time then you you have a conflict of interest.

Secondly teachers have contact time of 22 hours with classes or students and this does not include class planning or any extra-curricular activities that many teachers be involved after school hours.

To be frank, whether or not people are "ripping off the state" by not declaring income and paying tax has no relevance in this thread - why don't you set up a threat in another section because "ripping off the state" goes WAY beyond teachers giving grinds.

I do agree however that the current system has totally inadequate performance measurement for teachers.

Hillel

mrboswell wrote: »

You say "In private industry employees cannot take up work, outside working hours, where there is a potential conflict of interest. Do you really believe that say accountants don't do nixers as well as many countless other sectors. Sorry but I have to laugh at that.
Most teachers are indeed under pressure with class numbers and resources so it's not always as cut and dry to say its a conflict of interest if teachers give grinds. If a teacher was to give students in his/her own school outside of school time then you you have a conflict of interest.

Secondly teachers have contact time of 22 hours with classes or students and this does not include class planning or any extra-curricular activities that many teachers be involved after school hours.

Teachers in Ireland are paid well above international norms. When challenged on this, the response of teacher unions is invariably that teachers are also heavily involved in "extra-curricular" activities. Fair enough, when this is actually the reality. Committed, hard-working, teachers are under-valued and, at the lower end of the pay scale, by no means overpaid.

Many teachers have commented, both personally and on this forum, that they are tired at the end of a hard days work. I readily accept this to be the case. Preparing classes, marking assignments, supporting extra curricular activities etc. can be a substantial amount of work, following on from a busy teaching day. However, in such environments educational outcomes are generally good and grinds are entirely unnecessary.

The reality, as all professional educators know well, is that not all teachers are so committed, or make any substantial contribution to extra curricular activities. Where teachers are putting substantial efforts into preparing and delivering grinds, in addition to their "day job", something suffers. In many cases it is their contribution in the classroom. Teachers are tired, classes are poorly taught, homework is not corrected .....
Educational outcomes can still be good - for bright students, with committed parents who can afford grinds! This is a clear conflict of interest which would not be tolerated in the private sector.

mrboswell wrote: »

To be frank, whether or not people are "ripping off the state" by not declaring income and paying tax has no relevance in this thread - why don't you set up a threat in another section because "ripping off the state" goes WAY beyond teachers giving grinds.

It is entirely relevant and appropriate to this forum. Teachers are in a unique position of influence, privilege and responsibility in relation to the impressionable young people in their care. The cavalier attitude to the laws and institutions of this country, demonstrated by some posters on this thread, draw into question their suitability as educators. I would not want the individuals concerned teaching my child. Period.

mrboswell

Hillel wrote: »

Teachers in Ireland are paid well above international norms. When challenged on this, the response of teacher unions is invariably that teachers are also heavily involved in "extra-curricular" activities. Fair enough, when this is actually the reality. Committed, hard-working, teachers are under-valued and, at the lower end of the pay scale, by no means overpaid.

Many teachers have commented, both personally and on this forum, that they are tired at the end of a hard days work. I readily accept this to be the case. Preparing classes, marking assignments, supporting extra curricular activities etc. can be a substantial amount of work, following on from a busy teaching day. However, in such environments educational outcomes are generally good and grinds are entirely unnecessary.

The reality, as all professional educators know well, is that not all teachers are so committed, or make any substantial contribution to extra curricular activities. Where teachers are putting substantial efforts into preparing and delivering grinds, in addition to their "day job", something suffers. In many cases it is their contribution in the classroom. Teachers are tired, classes are poorly taught, homework is not corrected .....
Educational outcomes can still be good - for bright students, with committed parents who can afford grinds! This is a clear conflict of interest which would not be tolerated in the private sector.



It is entirely relevant and appropriate to this forum. Teachers are in a unique position of influence, privilege and responsibility in relation to the impressionable young people in their care. The cavalier attitude to the laws and institutions of this country, demonstrated by some posters on this thread, draw into question their suitability as educators. I would not want the individuals concerned teaching my child. Period.

Again I concur that it is not a perfect system - It is really competition for college places that is pushing up points and hence the demand for grinds.

You say "Where teachers are putting substantial efforts into preparing and delivering grinds, in addition to their "day job", something suffers. In many cases it is their contribution in the classroom. Teachers are tired, classes are poorly taught, homework is not corrected ....." - you are having a laugh if you want to put all teachers who give grinds into that boat. I beg to differ - you are very mistaken - I and most in the profession that I know take pride in all of our work whether it be daytime or evening employment.

You also say in relation to taxation on supplemental income from grinds "The cavalier attitude to the laws and institutions of this country, demonstrated by some posters on this thread, draw into question their suitability as educators. I would not want the individuals concerned teaching my child. Period." To be fair you probably know nothing about the private lives of most of you children's educators. Lets be honest - I have never heard of ANYONE person who does nixers that declares them to Revenue - this includes builders, hairdressers etc. I don't condone it either but dish your rant out to some of the other professions that are doing it because we take you point on board...

gaeilgebeo

Hillel wrote: »

Teachers in Ireland are paid well above international norms. When challenged on this, the response of teacher unions is invariably that teachers are also heavily involved in "extra-curricular" activities. Fair enough, when this is actually the reality. Committed, hard-working, teachers are under-valued and, at the lower end of the pay scale, by no means overpaid.

Many teachers have commented, both personally and on this forum, that they are tired at the end of a hard days work. I readily accept this to be the case. Preparing classes, marking assignments, supporting extra curricular activities etc. can be a substantial amount of work, following on from a busy teaching day. However, in such environments educational outcomes are generally good and grinds are entirely unnecessary.

The reality, as all professional educators know well, is that not all teachers are so committed, or make any substantial contribution to extra curricular activities. Where teachers are putting substantial efforts into preparing and delivering grinds, in addition to their "day job", something suffers. In many cases it is their contribution in the classroom. Teachers are tired, classes are poorly taught, homework is not corrected .....
Educational outcomes can still be good - for bright students, with committed parents who can afford grinds! This is a clear conflict of interest which would not be tolerated in the private sector.



It is entirely relevant and appropriate to this forum. Teachers are in a unique position of influence, privilege and responsibility in relation to the impressionable young people in their care. The cavalier attitude to the laws and institutions of this country, demonstrated by some posters on this thread, draw into question their suitability as educators. I would not want the individuals concerned teaching my child. Period.

What a generalisation to make, teachers who give grinds are tired, classes are poorly taught, homework is not corrected ???

This is a complete contradiction. If you are not a good teacher then how can you get students for grinds? As for a conflict of interest, I never give grinds to any student in my school. My own students do not suffer either. Their work is always corrected and they are always taught well.

It is quite clear to see the posters who really have no clue about teaching/learning. While I agree that some students do get grinds because of lack of material covered in class or taught inadequately, this is not always the case.

Many students get grinds because they are weak at a subject and need the extra help. Some may also need the points in their Leaving Cert and need extra help to attain a higher grade.

Most teachers work extremely hard under increasingly difficult circumstances and are very dedicated to their students.

Toto Wolfcastle

This thread has gone so far off topic that I can barely remember what the OP's question was. I have locked it for this reason, and also because it is not entirely acceptable to brag about not paying tax on your earnings.

If someone wishes to start a new thread about how to go about giving maths grinds then by all means do. If someone wishes to discuss tax the Taxation forum is available.