Manchester Utd V Arsenal PL

Frisbee

Headshot wrote: »

what the difference between Rooney going down to fast and staying up wasn't it going to be a peno either way ?

Unfortunately it was going to be a peno either way yes. However Rooney chose to cheat to win it, rather than win it fairly.

Rooney had put the ball that far ahead of him he knew it wasn't going to catch it.

Why didn't he jump over Almunia? Because he's already on his way down before contact is made.

MagicMarker

Frisbee wrote: »

The keeper clattered Rooney after Rooney had begun to dive

It's doesn't make a difference!!!

It was ALWAYS going to be a penalty because there was contact made!!!!

How anyone can't understand something so simple is beyond me.

The Muppet

Frisbee wrote: »

You can clearly see Rooney's left toe starting to drag before any contact is made

Run at full tilt and strech your right leg out in the manner Rooney did to make contact with the ball and have a look at the position of your left toe. Mind you don't hurt yourself when doing so.

LuckyLloyd

Liam O wrote: »

so contact in the box doesn't constitute a peno

Note on MoTD a former Arsenal player saying STONEWALL PENALTY!

This will be my last post on the matter:

1) As per my first post on the penalty issue, the details of whether the penalty should have been awarded or not as per the rules of the game or precedent within those rules doesn't interest me. In the wake of the Eduardo incident, the interesting aspect is the fact that Rooney starts to fall of his own accord before Almunia touches him.

Rooney set out to win the penalty, and his instinct was to dive when he twigged the keeper was coming like a steam train. If Almunia had been smart enough to pull his arms out of the way Rooney would have gone down anyway, and we would have an exact rerun of Wednesday night. So, Almunia is at fault, and makes the situation different to Eduardo's as a result. But the point people are making is Rooney's side of the equation is the exact same as Eduardo's. He dived.

2) Football pundits lol. :rolleyes:

But ye can have the last word to your heart's content.

Frisbee

MagicMarker wrote: »

How anyone can't understand something so simple is beyond me.

Yes, it is always going to be a penalty.

My point is that Rooney dived.

DM_7

Arshavin is some player. Just watching the highlights after watching the whole match earlier.

He probably deserved Man of the match.

MagicMarker

Frisbee wrote: »

Yes, it is always going to be a penalty.

My point is that Rooney dived.

That's what you call a moot point.

raido9

Dario Obnoxious Somebody wrote: »

Something needs to be done about the rules for a penalty in Rooneys situation.He knew he was never going to score so he just boots the ball towards the line and follows through knowing the keeper would catch him.

In the rules its a peno but it shouldnt be.Had the keeper not touched him the ball was going dead anyway,absolute joke.

Most sensible post on this thread

The Muppet

Frisbee wrote: »

Why didn't he jump over Almunia?

Why should he?

Frisbee

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's what you call a moot point.

No it's not.

It get's across the point that Rooney is as much a cheater as Eduardo

Frisbee

The Muppet wrote: »

Why should he?

Well don't do that and you have the option to win a penalty fairly and win one unfairly.

Rooney chose the latter

Headshot

Frisbee wrote: »

No it's not.

It get's across the point that Rooney is as much a cheater as Eduardo

im getting away from here

ill have my hair torn out before the night is out you Frisbee

Frisbee

Headshot wrote: »

im getting away from here

ill have my hair torn out before the night is out you Frisbee

No idea what your trying to say here

curry-muff

Jealousy lads, its a wile thing :rolleyes:

Liam O

raido9 wrote: »

Most sensible post on this thread

really? I thought it was the opposite myself.

People are using slow motion replays to prove their point. Look at it in real time and tell me it's not a peno. Rooney lunges for the ball, gets a touch, a bit off balance, left leg gets hit, starts to go over, right leg gets hit and goes over. Why is this even being debated? Wenger would even tell you it's a clear penalty.

DM_7

raido9 wrote: »

Most sensible post on this thread

No it wasn't.

If a player goes to win the ball and doesn't its a foul. It shouldn't matter where the ball is going. In the case of today if almunia stays on his line rooney can take the ball and shoot. Almunia tried to stop this and ended up fouling rooney.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

If Almunia had been clever like Boruc and pulled out, it would have been the exact same as Eduardo's. Eduardo assumed he was going to be touched, just like Rooney did when he started going down.

I don't deny that it was a penalty, but how anyone can argue that he wasn't already on the way down is beyond me.

The Muppet

Frisbee wrote: »

Well don't do that and you have the option to win a penalty fairly and win one unfairly.

Rooney chose the latter

If rooney jumped the keeper there would have been no contact made and it wouldn't have been a penalty, the contact is the deciding factor in the decision. Footballers are not obigied to hurdled tackles.

OPENROAD

playa3 wrote: »

but how anyone can argue that he wasn't already on the way down is beyond me.

+1

curry-muff

For god sake lads, rooney did the sensible thing, if your knew you were inevitably going to get tackled would you keep running at full speed, no? Guessed not, Rooney didnt have enough time to slow down or stop so he avoided running full speed into Almunia the only way possible i can only imagine the amount of crying at rooney you lot would do if he did a Petr Cech on him.

DM_7

The Muppet wrote: »

Run at full tilt and strech your right leg out in the manner Rooney did to make contact with the ball and have a look at the position of your left toe. Mind you don't hurt yourself when doing so.

Also add two hands crashing onto to your right boot. While you are looking at the position of your feet try and jump.

Rooney stretched to get the ball, his body was in a low position. The contacty from Almunia removed any chance for rooney to stay up right. Foul = Penalty

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

If you're happy with your analysis of giggs and flecher thats fine by me, I just think your wrong on both counts.

That's cool we can agree about disagreeing

DM-ICE wrote: »

I agree about Giggs. I thought he was terrible in the first half and not much better in the 2nd. United made some good breaks and he messed everyone of them up. He made some good contribution for the two goals but united may well have had a lead in the first half if he used the ball better. He reminded me of Luis Garcia when he was with Liverpool, gave the ball away most of the time but managed to be involved in goals that win the game.

I would be less critical of Fletcher, he works hard in defence and his play is limited to that. He doesn't always use the ball well but thats excusable as his role is about tackles and covering runs. Carrick and Giggs are the ones supposed to move the ball around.

Yup, totally agree with all of this.

Frisbee

curry-muff wrote: »

For god sake lads, rooney did the sensible thing, if your knew you were inevitably going to get tackled would you keep running at full speed, no? Guessed not, Rooney didnt have enough time to slow down or stop so he avoided running full speed into Almunia the only way possible i can only imagine the amount of crying at rooney you lot would do if he did a Petr Cech on him.

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

Headshot

Frisbee wrote: »

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

(cant keep away)


Frisbee why should he jump as muppet said

Footballers are not obigied to hurdled tackles.

DM_7

Frisbee wrote: »

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

Look at the footage again. Put your feet in the position Rooney had his feet in after stretching for the ball.

If you Can jump, join the circus.

curry-muff

Frisbee wrote: »

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

Im sorry if Rooneys reflexes arent up to your catlike standards, and why jump over when he had a chance of scoring, if Almunia didnt pull him down he would have controlled the ball and got a shot away, whether or not it would have went in or not is a different story, but in the end its all Almunias fault.

Frisbee

Headshot wrote: »

Frisbee why should he jump as muppet said

He doesn't have to.

But why should he dive?

If that was on the half way line and Almunia was an outfield player slide tackling Rooney 9 times out of 10, Rooney is going to hurdle that challenge.

Instead he chooses to dive.

Liam O

Frisbee wrote: »

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

How in God's name was he supposed to jump over the keeper immediately after making a huge stretch to get a touch on the ball? Jesus Christ, watch the thing again and then try to make a stretch like that and see how high you can jump.

Mr.Nice Guy

Frisbee wrote: »

He could have jumped over him instead of cheating

How did he "cheat"? By not keeping his balance? Please.

Whether he was going to ground before Almunia made contact is irrelevant. That doesn't negate the fact that Almunia stupidly clattered into him and fouled him - INSIDE the box.

Result: penalty.

Liam O

DM-ICE wrote: »

Look at the footage again. Put your feet in the position Rooney had his feet in after stretching for the ball.

If you Can jump, join the circus.

ha beat me too it, damn MoTD

Frisbee

curry-muff wrote: »

if Almunia didnt pull him down he would have controlled the ball and got a shot away, whether or not it would have went in or not is a different story, but in the end its all Almunias fault.

If Almunia didn't catch Rooney the ball was out of play before Rooney got anywhere near it.

Exactly the same way the peno we got against Celtic midweek should never have been given as Eduardo was never gonna catch the ball

MagicMarker

If this.. if that..

If Almunia hadn't fouled Rooney there would be no penalty.

Theresalwaysone

Just finished watching the match there. United played off the park, some good breaks and attacking threat but Arsenal were by far the better team imo. Imagine they had Cesc fit.

raido9

The Muppet wrote: »

For me the 2 1 win vindicates the manager selection, If you saw the whole coverage of the game you would have see the manager interviewed pre kick off where he explained his team selection. His reason for his selection made perfect sense to me.

If you're happy with your analysis of giggs and flecher thats fine by me, I just think your wrong on both counts.

Agreed, but Giggs should have been taken off after 25 minutes, he was having a shocker.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He has a right to be aggrieved over the result of the game. Just as Celtic fans had a right to feel hard done by on Wednesday.

The result is valid, utd scored two fair goals, to arsenals one.
Get over it.

Headshot wrote: »

Im trying to stay away from this thread but **** it Frisbee I hate seeing ****e written

Rooney if he kept going was going to tackled by the keeper anyway,as iv said Rooney knew the challenge was coming and road the challenge to prevent injury

if Rooney went down to fast or not the goalie was still going to clatter him anyway

Rode the challenge to get a penalty you mean.

Frisbee wrote: »

The keeper clattered Rooney after Rooney had begun to dive

The keeper clattered rooney, ergo penalty.

thecross1 wrote: »

Arshavin should have been awarded the penalty he was taking out of it

Absolutely, terrible decision, good thing arsenal scored from the resulting play or you'd have been robbed.

Liam O wrote: »

really? I thought it was the opposite myself.

People are using slow motion replays to prove their point. Look at it in real time and tell me it's not a peno. Rooney lunges for the ball, gets a touch, a bit off balance, left leg gets hit, starts to go over, right leg gets hit and goes over. Why is this even being debated? Wenger would even tell you it's a clear penalty.

Agreed, with the rules and interpretation as they are, its a clear penalty. You missed the point of the quoted post.

DM-ICE wrote: »

No it wasn't.

If a player goes to win the ball and doesn't its a foul. It shouldn't matter where the ball is going. In the case of today if almunia stays on his line rooney can take the ball and shoot. Almunia tried to stop this and ended up fouling rooney.

However in my opinion I think where the ball is has a part to play in the decision. Almunia clattered rooney, but rooney was never getting to the ball.

Common sense refereeing would award a goal kick to arsenal, and a yellow card to almunia for the tackle. He didn't prevent a goalscoring chance, why should it be a penalty. This is an argument of the rules, not saying the ref was wrong.

Liam O

Frisbee wrote: »

He doesn't have to.

But why should he dive?

If that was on the half way line and Almunia was an outfield player slide tackling Rooney 9 times out of 10, Rooney is going to hurdle that challenge.

Instead he chooses to dive.

If you still think Rooney dived then common sense clearly isn't going to change your mind. Just look at it please.

MagicMarker

Frisbee wrote: »

If Almunia didn't catch Rooney the ball was out of play before Rooney got anywhere near it.

Exactly the same way the peno we got against Celtic midweek should never have been given as Eduardo was never gonna catch the ball

No, the penalty midweek shouldn't have been given because, err, it wasn't a penalty.

DM_7

Frisbee wrote: »

If Almunia didn't catch Rooney the ball was out of play before Rooney got anywhere near it.

Exactly the same way the peno we got against Celtic midweek should never have been given as Eduardo was never gonna catch the ball

raido9 wrote: »

However in my opinion I think where the ball is has a part to play in the decision. Almunia clattered rooney, but rooney was never getting to the ball.



Common sense refereeing would award a goal kick to arsenal, and a yellow card to almunia for the tackle. He didn't prevent a goalscoring chance, why should it be a penalty. This is an argument of the rules, not saying the ref was wrong.

Almunia's positioning is what made Rooney Stretch for the ball. If he stayed on his line Rooney is running at a straighter angle and would be shooting. Almunia took a risk and it didn't pay off. That means penalty.


Frisbee I don't consider the incident today to be like the Eduardo penalty in the Celtic Match.

titan18

Frisbee,why didn't Arshavin hurdle Fletcher then since Rooney should do it?How about Eboue?Evra was on a yellow card so if the ref had bought his dive, Evra was off.

Frisbee

Liam O wrote: »

If you still think Rooney dived then common sense clearly isn't going to change your mind. Just look at it please.

Ok looking at it extensively here.
I've already admitted that I can see why the ref gave the penalty in real time. Moving at that pace it looks like a stonewall peno.



In this one both of Rooney's knees are bent and he's leaning completely forward before any contact is made.



Fairly inconclusive, hard to see anything, looks like a peno.



For me 3rd one is 50/50 but in real time Rooney would be getting the benefit of the doubt.

In any game, anywhere in the world, the referee is going to award Rooney a penalty for that, 100% without a shadow of a doubt.

My only point is that Rooney is diving before any contact is made.

I'm not saying the referee shouldn't have given it, I'm saying Rooney dived.

raido9

DM-ICE wrote: »

Almunia's positioning is what made Rooney Stretch for the ball. If he stayed on his line Rooney is running at a straighter angle and would be shooting. Almunia took a risk and it didn't pay off. That means penalty.

Ya, thats fair enough, I'll retract that argument.

Good point!

Frisbee

titan18 wrote: »

Frisbee,why didn't Arshavin hurdle Fletcher then since Rooney should do it?How about Eboue?Evra was on a yellow card so if the ref had bought his dive, Evra was off.

Eboue's behaviour was absolutely disgraceful and he deserved a yellow for that, 100%.

As for Arshavin he isn't going down before Fletcher hits him.
Fletcher himself even admitted on MoTD that he isn't sure that it wasn't a penalty.

Mr.Nice Guy

titan18 wrote: »

Frisbee,why didn't Arshavin hurdle Fletcher then since Rooney should do it?How about Eboue?Evra was on a yellow card so if the ref had bought his dive, Evra was off.

It's ridiculous the amount of stick Rooney is getting whereas Eboue seems to have been conveniently overlooked for his outrageous descent to the ground. Would love to hear what the defence is for his actions. Perhaps a water bottle flew by and spooked him.

DM_7

raido9 wrote: »

Ya, thats fair enough, I'll retract that argument.

Good point!

Oh, Okay so!

MagicMarker

Frisbee wrote: »

I'm not saying the referee shouldn't have given it, I'm saying Rooney dived.

That's great, obviously not everyone agrees with you.

jaykay74

Frisbee wrote: »

I'm not saying the referee shouldn't have given it, I'm saying Rooney dived.

Would you accept the possibility that Rooney was trying to avoid injury at all though ? If he had left his studs in the turf and took an impact from the keeper at full pelt he could have been seriously injured. Why should he take the risk. He was about the be clattered either way.

Frisbee

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Would love to hear what the defence is for his actions.

I wouldn't dream of defending him.
If the FA chose to ban him for two games he's completely deserve it

Liam O

look at Rooney's right leg in the top one and look where Almunia's arms drop. They land right on his foot imo which causes him to go off balance

Frisbee

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's great, obviously not everyone agrees with you.

Obviously not. It's funny how internet discussion forums are useful for things like that.

OPENROAD

Frisbee wrote: »

I wouldn't dream of defending him.
If the FA chose to ban him for two games he's completely deserve it

+1

OPENROAD

jaykay74 wrote: »

Would you accept the possibility that Rooney was trying to avoid injury at all though ? If he had left his studs in the turf and took an impact from the keeper at full pelt he could have been seriously injured. Why should he take the risk. He was about the be clattered either way.

I wouldn't accept it.