Manchester Utd V Arsenal PL

Pepe LeFrits

Thanks for the underline. I would have missed that point without it, and I'm glad I didn't because I'd never considered it before. As such, I can't possibly think of any suitable response.

Victor McDade

No worries. I thought it was necessary since you ignore the point so blatantly in the earlier post

gosplan

savemejebas wrote: »

No worries. I thought it was necessary since you ignore the point so blatantly in the earlier post

just keep rereading till you understand savemejebas

jank

savemejebas wrote: »

How so

Almunia made contact with Rooney

So if you dive and make contact with the keeper on the way to ground it is then not a dive.
If the keeper made contact and THEN the player went down nobody would have complaints but he was on the way down already and contact was made after.

Berti Vogts

RasTa wrote: »

Just back from the game, still don't know how we won it. Arsenal players like diving, Van Persie's in particular was very funny early on in the game. We played a shocker in the first half, not a fan of this 4-5-1 at home and the goal should have being saved. It was also the worst game I've seen Giggs play, the Stretty where getting on his back.

Clear peno as I was right beside it, Rooney just nipped it away from Aluminia. Oh and Fletcher and Evra where our best players by a country mile, they need a song.

Knackered now and got work in the morning. I'm looking forward to MOTD to see what the Wegner thing was all about, pretty funny seeing him standing up there.

And yet the Sunday Times sports supplement's headline this morning is: Old Master Giggs inspires United comeback as Wenger sees red

Surely a shoe-in for player of the year already?

RasTa

Possibilities wrote: »

And yet the Sunday Times sports supplement's headline this morning is: Old Master Giggs inspires United comeback as Wenger sees red

Surely a shoe-in for player of the year already?

He did get two assists

[Jackass]

Complete dirty dive, first contact is made from the shoulder area to rooneys right knee, Rooney is already air born after propelling himself superman style into the air and the ball is already dead because he hoofed it away trying to go to ground to cheat into a peno.

Yellow card Rooney. Goal kick.

The Muppet

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

The difference between Rooney and Eduardo's dives were the goalkeeper. Both of them did the exact same thing, one just got lucky that the keeper made him look honest.

There is another difference. Every professional soccer pundit and writer whose comments I have heard/read recoignised that Eduardo was cheating while Rooney was not. They must be wrong.

noodler

Rooney did appear to be on his way down prior to contact.

I know he was running fast and he doesn't have to get out of the way but...

Fuhrer

jank wrote: »

Is football not a contact sport anymore?

Rooney already falling before contact was made. That is a fact.
Is this not simulating?

No its obviously not.

He was streching to get the ball, hence being off balance.


This is a contact sport, not a what if sport. Rooney didnt dive because he was fouled, simple as. Anyone who continues to argue that he dived despite conclusive proof that he was fouled is just trolling.

MagicMarker

Great win yesterday, that's the difference between a good team and great team. A great team will win even on their worst day.

noodler

Fuhrer wrote: »

No its obviously not.

He was streching to get the ball, hence being off balance.


This is a contact sport, not a what if sport. Rooney didnt dive because he was fouled, simple as. Anyone who continues to argue that he dived despite conclusive proof that he was fouled is just trolling.

Its a bit sad that we are actually starting to apply one rule to the non-English players and one to the English ones.

Rooney on his way down prior to contact - he pretty much dived yesterday. It wasn't as blatant as Eduardo's but we have to start being consistent.

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Its a bit sad that we are actually starting to apply one rule to the non-English players and one to the English ones.

Rooney on his way down prior to contact - he pretty much dived yesterday. It wasn't as blatant as Eduardo's but we have to start being consistent.

We arent.


Eduardo threw himself to the ground while in control of the ball im the knowledge that the keeper was approaching.


Rooney was stretching his leg out for the ball and was then taken out by a clear foul by Almunia.


Doesnt matter if Rooney was going to dive or not, he didnt have the chance as he was fouled by Almunia

thorbarry

in fairness lads, i have watched the rooney one a few times. It would be difficult to prove that he dived, but with the Eduardo one, u can tell straight away he went down.

I think we should wait for a more blatant dive from a player, to see what happens

noodler

They are both cheating. Come on now people.

Rooney was falling prior to the contact - this is the key statement here. If you agree with it then he was cheating and I don't know how you can watch the video and say it was Almunia alone which brought him down.

Sure Eduardo's looked worse, Rooney's attempt was far more realistic but we have to recognise what we can see in the video hours after the game.

CR 7

So, since people seem to have seen this "blatant dive":rolleyes: so clearly , how come ye don't seem to think eboué's dive deserved a harsher punishment. It was clearly much worse, and was an actual attempt to con the ref. Or would that not suit the pro united conspiracy theories?

noodler

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

So, since people seem to have seen this "blatant dive":rolleyes: so clearly , how come ye don't seem to think eboué's dive deserved a harsher punishment. It was clearly much worse, and was an actual attempt to con the ref. Or would that not suit the pro united conspiracy theories?

Eboue's was terrible too. I think we should have stricter punishments for dives in the box though myself.

Rooney's dive changed the game - it was more calculating.

eddiehead

People need to stop being so misty-eyed over Giggs, he's past it, end of story. If I were a United fan the only positive I would take out of yesterdays game is the performance of Darren Fletcher, I can't stress how important I think he is to the team. This was another poor performance from United and I really don't see them winning much unless SAF brings in somebody in midfield.

Now I know somebody is going to come out and say "United do this every year, they always get off to a bad start" or "Well they still won despite playing bad, mark of champions etc etc", problem is this year I don't think either of those point's apply to United because I just don't see where the improvent is going to come from. They are strong defensively but that's it, if Rooney or Fletcher get injured I think they would look like a very ordinary team.

Arsene Wenger has every right to feel his side deserved a win yesterday, they were incredibly unlucky but I wouldn't be too worried if I was him, they went to OT and played United off the park for most of the game. If anything, Arsene should be the happier of the 2 managers after yesterdays game seeing as how the gulf in class which was so apparent in last years CL semis has been almost completely closed.

eddiehead

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

So, since people seem to have seen this "blatant dive":rolleyes: so clearly , how come ye don't seem to think eboué's dive deserved a harsher punishment. It was clearly much worse, and was an actual attempt to con the ref. Or would that not suit the pro united conspiracy theories?

I'm pretty sure an Arsenal fan (Frisbee iirc) came on here and said he would accept if Eboue was banned for his dive.

Nalz

I havent read much of this thread, and even though United could have finished Arsenal off with 4 great chances, Arsenal shaded the play and deserved at least a draw. On another day they could have got a penalty, Van Persies short range effor or the free kick could have went in. They kept the ball a bit better than United regardless of what the stats say.

but what a day for crap talk

Ferguson - "fair tackle by Fletcher" No way, he took the feet from under Arshavin, then the ball came off his elbow, defo penalty. Fergie, I admire him how he handles the press but Christ what bullsh'it. Then to say we were the better team. I know he has to say this but that was an even game, if not Arsenal were better as their touch and movement looked a bit sharper then United.

Wenger - "in Old Trafford what do you expect, they had a player who made 20 fouls and wasnt booked, how is this possible" who the funk is he talking about. Arsenal players did foul alot, and lets throw in an oul dive for good messure

Before the games began the carling cup draw was made. Paul Merson and Liverpools version of Paddy Crerand, Mr Philly magilly hows your nostrils Thompson. Now both of these characters were making the draw, and when the announcer made a comment "United home draw against premiership opponents Wolves", good oul Phil comes out with "typical,huh, Nothing new there is there" and rolls the eyes. He's the one making the draw!

After the United game, Jamie "we was playin bawl in de pawk mayte" Redknapp comes out with the golden comment "there was nothing in it even, it was an empty bottle" in reference to the bottle kicking incident. Yeah Jamie cas good oul Luco or H20 is damaging if split on the grass. Where did they get him from honestly! And how was Eboue's dive worse than Eduardos against Celtic? Eduardo's was obvious as any and it was inside the penalty. Christ my Aunt would comment and observe a game of football better.

Unlucky Arsenal, at least a point deserved. Get Cesc back, cut out the petty fouling and keep the CBs fit and they'll be close.

thorbarry

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

So, since people seem to have seen this "blatant dive":rolleyes: so clearly , how come ye don't seem to think eboué's dive deserved a harsher punishment. It was clearly much worse, and was an actual attempt to con the ref. Or would that not suit the pro united conspiracy theories?

i dont think anyone called Rooneys dive blatant (and if they did sorry). A dive is a dive, no matter where it is on the pitch. Eboue dived also, so any criticism we gooners have a rooney really should be directed at eboue also

gosplan

eddiehead wrote: »

I'm pretty sure an Arsenal fan (Frisbee iirc) came on here and said he would accept if Eboue was banned for his dive.

So would I. In fact, increasing that standard yellow to a red might solve a lot of the trouble.

noodler

gosplan wrote: »

So would I. In fact, increasing that standard yellow to a red might solve a lot of the trouble.

Always a chance the ref will misjudge a dive in a game - thats why a red might be a bad idea.

You could be sure, however, that any player banned retrospectively did actually dive because you would have the benefit of video evidence.

CR 7

well the difference with eboué's dive was that he was a good 2 feet away from evra i think it was. Rooney's alleged dive involved enough contact from the keeper to take him down.

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Eboue's was terrible too. I think we should have stricter punishments for dives in the box though myself.

Rooney's dive changed the game - it was more calculating.

Rooney didnt dive, Rooney was fouled.

noodler

He was already on his way to ground in anticipation of the contact.

Rinse and Repeat etc.

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

He was already on his way to ground in anticipation of the contact.

Rinse and Repeat etc.

He could have been on his way to the moon in anticipation of the contact but it doesnt matter because he was fouled.

No dive, Rinse & Repeat etc.

noodler

Fuhrer wrote: »

He could have been on his way to the moon in anticipation of the contact but it doesnt matter because he was fouled.

No dive, Rinse & Repeat etc.

Well here is where we disagree then.

So its ok that he went to ground himself, because he managed to fall to ground in a manner which ensured contact with the Arsenal keeper seconds later?

I just disagree. Collapsing is diving. Unless contact by the opposing player alone is what brought you down then you have dived.

smilerf

noodler wrote: »

He was already on his way to ground in anticipation of the contact.

Rinse and Repeat etc.

rooney was fouled and the goal at the finish was offside

Nalz

jank wrote: »

So if you dive and make contact with the keeper on the way to ground it is then not a dive.
If the keeper made contact and THEN the player went down nobody would have complaints but he was on the way down already and contact was made after.

There is a fine line here lets be fair. I'm still not sure if its a penalty. Rooney did go down or dive into the keeper. But i chatted to mates about this and one made a comment along of the lines of this:

If almunia ran out and stood in front of rooney without playing the ball its a penalty. So anyone now can put there hands out in front of a player and its up to the player to go around jump over it. If you stand in front of player blocking his run at full speed, the player is impeeded and has to change his momentum, its a free. So if you put your hands out when a player is running at you at full speed, is it up to you then to stop or jump over? We're talking miliseconds here. Keeper ran out, at the player, missed the ball, left his hands there just as Rooney had kicked the ball away from him.

Just said I'd shake it up and leave it with you!

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Well here is where we disagree then.

So its ok that he went to ground himself, because he managed to fall to ground in a manner which ensured contact with the Arsenal keeper seconds later?

I just disagree. Collapsing is diving. Unless contact by the opposing player alone is what brought you down then you have dived.

The only way he would have avoided contact with Almunia is if he jumped over him, as he was already stretching his leg out after winning the ball he couldnt.

And I dont agree that he was collapsing either, he was stretching out on a slick service, the only was for him to regain his balance and not fall over is if he could plant his leg back out in front of himself, as Almunia took his legs out, he had to fall. Not a dive or even close to it.

noodler

Trilla wrote: »

There is a fine line here lets be fair. I'm still not sure if its a penalty. Rooney did go down or dive into the keeper. But i chatted to mates about this and one made a comment along of the lines of this:

If almunia ran out and stood in front of rooney without playing the ball its a penalty. So anyone now can put there hands out in front of a player and its up to the player to go around jump over it. If you stand in front of player blocking his run at full speed, the player is impeeded and has to change his momentum, its a free. So if you put your hands out when a player is running at you at full speed, is it up to you then to stop or jump over? We're talking miliseconds here. Keeper ran out, at the player, missed the ball, left his hands there just as Rooney had kicked the ball away from him.

Just said I'd shake it up and leave it with you!

Rooney doesn't have to jumo over him. He doesn't have to collapse into the challenge either.

Fine line alright.

Fuhrer wrote: »

The only way he would have avoided contact with Almunia is if he jumped over him, as he was already stretching his leg out after winning the ball he couldnt.

And I dont agree that he was collapsing either, he was stretching out on a slick service, the only was for him to regain his balance and not fall over is if he could plant his leg back out in front of himself, as Almunia took his legs out, he had to fall. Not a dive or even close to it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify it. Must remember the slick pitch one. Watch his left leg (the one he WASN'T reaching with) collapse just as readily as his right. That doesn't happen at the same time if you fell from stretching one leg.

podge018

complete horse****.

Boggles

eddiehead wrote: »

.If anything, Arsene should be the happier of the 2 managers after yesterdays game

Beaten and sent off, yeah he should be delighted. :rolleyes:

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Rooney doesn't have to jumo over him. He doesn't have to collapse into the challenge either.

Fine line alright.




Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify it. Must remember the slick pitch one.

I dont need to tell myself anything to justify it.

The decision justifies it.

The opinion of experts justifies it.

The replay justifies it.

The only arguement you have is that Rooney might have dived had he not been fouled. Its not an arguement at all, its a What if?

podge018

you only have to look at this:



and look at his left leg. Disgusting.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Rooney doesn't have to jumo over him. He doesn't have to collapse into the challenge either.

Fine line alright.




Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify it. Must remember the slick pitch one. Watch his left leg (the one he WASN'T reaching with) collapse just as readily as his right. That doesn't happen at the same time if you fell from stretching one leg.

Just so you can read it again.

podge018 wrote: »

you only have to look at this:



and look at his left leg. Disgusting.

Now please pay attention Fuhrer

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Just so you can read it again.






Now please pay attention Fuhrer

yeah, you edited your post after id already started replying.


Its a bit hard to pay attention to things that arent there for most people, however you seem to be paying attention to a dive that isnt there so...



Simple rebuttal of your point, Rooney was stretching out to win the ball, his right foot far out in front of his left and simply not a dive.

noodler

Fuhrer wrote: »

Simple rebuttal of your point, Rooney was stretching out to win the ball, his right foot far out in front of his left and simply not a dive.

Why does his left leg collapse at the same time then? Keep ignoring that point, eh?

Funny thing is, if he stays on his feet it looks like he will get taken out regardless but it doesn't change the fact he collapsed into the keeper.

WIZE

Thats a peno

Rooney got to the ball first and the keeper comes crashing into him.

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

Why does his left leg collapse at the same time then? Keep ignoring that point, eh?

I ddidnt ignore your point, I rebutted it several times you just choose to ignore it for some reasons.

His left leg doesnt collapse, Rooneys stretching out to win the ball with his right leg. His left leg is trailing behind because hes off balance from the streching out. Then Almunia cuts across him and fouls him, No Dive.

noodler

Fuhrer wrote: »

His left leg doesnt collapse, Rooneys stretching out to win the ball with his right leg. His left leg is trailing behind because hes off balance from the streching out.

My word..

T-b0n3

I can see this going on for a while, think I'll leave you boys to it!

Even though you aren't going to get any where!

Liam O

Fuhrer wrote: »

I ddidnt ignore your point, I rebutted it several times you just choose to ignore it for some reasons.

His left leg doesnt collapse, Rooneys stretching out to win the ball with his right leg. His left leg is trailing behind because hes off balance from the streching out. Then Almunia cuts across him and fouls him, No Dive.

Fuhrer, just get away from this thread, I went through this last night and they are always going to believe that Rooney dived when if you showed the incident to 10 unbiased fans, they would all tell you it's a nailed on penalty. What was Rooney supposed to do? Some kind of circus cartwheel or just plant his feet on the ground for Almunia to break his leg? Maybe just knee Almunia in the head and fracture his skull...

Fuhrer

noodler wrote: »

My word..

I know! You're flimsiest of arguements can be viewed in another way! What is the world coming to.

LuckyLloyd

the_pm_of_17 wrote: »

So, since people seem to have seen this "blatant dive":rolleyes: so clearly , how come ye don't seem to think eboué's dive deserved a harsher punishment. It was clearly much worse, and was an actual attempt to con the ref. Or would that not suit the pro united conspiracy theories?

I would be in favour of action against Eboue aswell. Of course (and completely understandably), because his dive was not around a key penalty kick that changed the course of the game - and was spotted by the referee and punished by a yellow card - it isn't receiving as much attention.

jaykay74

noodler wrote: »

Eboue's was terrible too. I think we should have stricter punishments for dives in the box though myself.

Rooney's dive changed the game - it was more calculating.

Evra would have got a 2nd yellow and been sent off so it would have been fairly damaging to Utd.

RasTa

Even Alan Green said it was a peno, in fact I haven't read one journalist saying it was a dive. Leave the hatred at home folks.

Fuhrer

In the pub yesterday, my Arsenal supporting mates arguement was that how could Rooneys be a penalty if Arshavins wasnt. Arshavins was a clear penalty also but because Fletcher took the ball away with his arm. Didnt really matter though as he smacked one in 30 seconds later.

CR 7

Fuhrer wrote: »

I ddidnt ignore your point, I rebutted it several times you just choose to ignore it for some reasons.

His left leg doesnt collapse, Rooneys stretching out to win the ball with his right leg. His left leg is trailing behind because hes off balance from the streching out. Then Almunia cuts across him and fouls him, No Dive.

This is exactly what most people are preferring to ignore, cos it doesn't fit their ideals. When you over stretch one leg to reach the ball, the other leg cannot simply stay planted on the spot, it will trail after the other one, and since Almunia dives in and prevents him from correcting that movement, he cannot stay standing.