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Teachers Union orders teachers to stop teaching should the number be too high!
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In the modern age do we even need teachers? Surely we can create structured self learning tools to allow children to teach themselves?
I suppose I don't think teachers are important at all they are part of an 19th century educational model we are using in the 21st century.
How many teachers in Ireland actually THINK about education.
We still need electricity and that was invented a few centuries ago.
Self learning does not really work with kids, particularly teenagers. University is different and I think at that point you are old enough to live and die by how much you put in. Have absolutely no sympathy for college students who balls up their courses.
Anyway back on topic; a good education system fundamentally needs good teachers0 -
i suppose the fundamental question here is, if teachers are doing all this just out of the care for the children, why are they taking them as hostage? and even more strikingly would teachers be willing to take a 15% paycut to decrease the teacher-student ratio that they talk about so much?0
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Taxipete29 wrote: »The problem with what you are saying here is that is limited to your own experience. I had some great teachers during my time in school. I also had a couple that were terrible. I also had a couple of teachers who were obviously
highly talented within their own subject but had difficulty teaching it to a level that benefitted all students, not just the really good ones.
Smaller classes has always been the key to delivering a better education to all students.
The fact that wealthier countries pay teachers less is a red herring. Those wealthier countries are less expensive overall to live in.
I asked this in another thread and I will ask it again here. How important do you rate the job of a teacher??
ireland being an expensive country to live in is a whole other issue , rip off ireland cannot be used as the main arguement for disproportionatley high paid public servants , ireland should not be paying its teachers more than countries that are wealthier than her0 -
i suppose the fundamental question here is, if teachers are doing all this just out of the care for the children, why are they taking them as hostage? and even more strikingly would teachers be willing to take a 15% paycut to decrease the teacher-student ratio that they talk about so much?
Time to get real here.
Nobody will, or indeed should, take a pay cut to improve their output at work.
Thats like asking an office worker with a clapped out typewriter would they take a 15% pay cut so they could get a new computer which would improve the quality of their work.
The problem here is that most people havent got the foggiest idea about the job of a teacher, yet they all think that they know everything about it.
Go and get on the BOM of a school. Then come back and talk with authority on what teachers do. I found this out myself. Just having gone to school does not make us experts at what the job teaching involves.0 -
That's a pension levy, you get it back.
I am a public sector employee and I would have a better pension when I was in the private sector.
I found my pension statement from 12 years ago.
Then I would have had a defined benefit pension of 2/3 and I would also would have got a pension based on my PRSI contributions.
I would have paid about 6% for the pension with my employer paying about another 12%.
In my current job I will get half my final pay less my PRSI contribution.
So in 1998 I would have got 12K + 4.5 K PRSI pension on a pay of 19K.
While a public sector employee (paying a class A stamp)would get 9.5K on a pay of 19K
In the private sector I would have been about 7K better off at pension time on a comparable pay, paying less of a contribution.0 -
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Time to get real here.
Nobody will, or indeed should, take a pay cut to improve their output at work.
Thats like asking an office worker with a clapped out typewriter would they take a 15% pay cut so they could get a new computer which would improve the quality of their work.
The problem here is that most people havent got the foggiest idea about the job of a teacher, yet they all think that they know everything about it.
Go and get on the BOM of a school. Then come back and talk with authority on what teachers do. I found this out myself. Just having gone to school does not make us experts at what the job teaching involves.
why not? if they are protesting about helping to 'save the children' then why not?
if they want their wages to stay the same, then ok, but i want them to say it out loud. i don't want this hiding behind the children stuff...
plus i've just come out of secondary school and i know its very tough out there, as some kids simply wont listen at all but i can compare 3 different education systems and teachers from 3 different countries and i can say that the irish teachers, for the most part, weren't worth that high salary that they are earning. those few teachers that i had that were worth the salary actually wanted to give up their high wages due to recession to help the state....0 -
I think all this cutting wages / lazy teachers talk is a bit childish. I think something more productive might be solutions to two issues. I'd love if the resident teachers might chip in on these.
Teachers get three months off, which is I think is unwarranted by the relatively comfortable level of reimbursement. Therefore, I think we should be getting at least another 2 months work from these public servants, 2 months of extra economic benefit. What could teachers do for an extra 2 summer months?
Teacher work evaluation - how do you evaluate the quality of a teachers work, given the variability in their raw materials (students), and the lack of direct supervision and performance evaluation during school hours. Exam grades as an evaluation tool seem like they would need a lot of statistical work to reflect the variance in class ability, outside influences, etc. Would anyone disagree that making the teacher profession more of a meritocracy would benefit everyone, in particular talented teachers?0 -
ireland being an expensive country to live in is a whole other issue , rip off ireland cannot be used as the main arguement for disproportionatley high paid public servants , ireland should not be paying its teachers more than countries that are wealthier than her
Teachers are hardly at the higher end of the public service pay scale. What would you consider a comparable position in the private sector and what level of pay does that position command.?0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »Teachers are hardly at the higher end of the public service pay scale. What would you consider a comparable position in the private sector and what level of pay does that position command.?
i dont believe in benchmarking teachers salarys against ( take your pick ) proffession in the private sector , i believe in benchmarking them against thier european counterparts , as for them not being at the higher end of the public sector scale , just because their not on the same wages as a doctor doesnt mean thier not very well paid0 -
i dont believe in benchmarking teachers salarys against ( take your pick ) proffession in the private sector , i believe in benchmarking them against thier european counterparts , as for them not being at the higher end of the public sector scale , just because their not on the same wages as a doctor doesnt mean thier not very well paid
You cant benchmark like that. Its not comparing like with like. Do we live in an overly expensive country? Yes. Can we change this overnight? No. Like it or not this is an expensive country to live in and unless that changes significantly there is no basis on which to reduce the salaries of teachers.
Teachers are paid a good salary. They however are an integral part of this country. They teach our children. Are you ever going to answer my question
How important do you rate the job of a teacher??
Is it possible you are avoiding it because your answer would force you to concede my central point??0 -
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Taxipete29 wrote: »unless that changes significantly there is no basis on which to reduce the salaries of teachers.
the basis for reducing public sector wages (including teachers) is that the country is under severe financial pressure and cannot afford the current bill. the suggestion that a reduction in pay would mean people would not become teachers is a red herring (perhaps if it was severly reduced to minimum wage or sometthing!); e.g. a 10% reduction would not change a thing in relation to people wanting to become teachers.
However, I don't agree with the idea of benchmarking at all (domestic or foreign), benchmarking has led to all sorts of issues that we have today and should be gotten rid of.0 -
the basis for reducing public sector wages (including teachers) is that the country is under severe financial pressure and cannot afford the current bill. the suggestion that a reduction in pay would mean people would not become teachers is a red herring (perhaps if it was severly reduced to minimum wage or sometthing!); e.g. a 10% reduction would not change a thing in relation to people wanting to become teachers.
However, I don't agree with the idea of benchmarking at all (domestic or foreign), benchmarking has led to all sorts of issues that we have today and should be gotten rid of.
I do not disagree with the need for reform of the public sector wage bill. This includes politicians running up huge expenses at massive cost to the taxpayer. It is ridiculous to suggest cutting the pay of vital front line public sector staff when this situation continues unchecked.
I disgaree that its a red herring. I would imagine the numbers will already be coming down considering most newly qualified teachers cant get a job in the present climate. Why would they not be further reduced if wages were cut??0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »It is ridiculous to suggest cutting the pay of vital front line public sector staff when this situation continues unchecked.
I disagree, the "front line" staff in the public sector make up a huge proportion of it; its a common refrain but if we could really solve our problems by cutting a few manager types it would be very straightforward.
sure politicians pay and expenses etc need attention but it will save hardly any money in the greater scheme of thingsI disgaree that its a red herring. I would imagine the numbers will already be coming down considering most newly qualified teachers cant get a job in the present climate. Why would they not be further reduced if wages were cut??
an embargo on recruitment will obviously have an effect but I dont think a reasonable paycut would
if you wanted to be a teacher and the pay was say €40,000 would you really change all that if it was €36,000 instead? Given the pay increases in recent times the salary of a teacher would have been less lets say 5 years ago, while house prices etc would have been higher, did people stop becoming teachers?
what would all these would-be teachers (applies to would-be nurses, guards etc too) become instead?0 -
I disagree, the "front line" staff in the public sector make up a huge proportion of it; its a common refrain but if we could really solve our problems by cutting a few manager types it would be very straightforward.
sure politicians pay and expenses etc need attention but it will save hardly any money in the greater scheme of things
It doesnt matter how little it would save. It all adds up at the en of the day.
Teachers, Nurses, Guards etc are the areas which should be untouchable. I have no problem with them being made more accountable and easier to discharge those who have poor job performance. The fact is though you dont improve education by cutting the pay of the primary providers.an embargo on recruitment will obviously have an effect but I dont think a reasonable paycut would
if you wanted to be a teacher and the pay was say €40,000 would you really change all that if it was €36,000 instead? Given the pay increases in recent times the salary of a teacher would have been less lets say 5 years ago, while house prices etc would have been higher, did people stop becoming teachers?
what would all these would-be teachers (applies to would-be nurses, guards etc too) become instead?
No but how many people who would otherwise of choosen different career paths became teachers because the financial rewards made it more appealing. When it comes to teachers we should always be looking to attract the best and the brightest. These people may choose other options should that reward be reduced. This reduces the competition. Thats never a good thing.
I have no idea what people would choose to do. Thats really not a question anyone is capable of answering considering all the variables.0 -
The fact is though you dont improve education by cutting the pay of the primary providers.
When it comes to teachers we should always be looking to attract the best and the brightest.
my basic point is that, if the pay of a teacher has been increased to such a point that its a well-paid job, then a small decrease to reflect the current circumstances is not going to change things
even with a pay cut a teaching job would be extremely attractive to much of the workforce/students0 -
as far as refusing to teach classes that are over an agreed ratio, is this not simply a version of "work to rule" ? Isnt working to the exact letter of their agreements better than a strike ? seriously, there was a thread on here before about how terrible it was that the teachers intended to strike once the school year started, shouldnt this thread (and the indo's reporting) be more along the lines of "promised strike averted, work to rule policy adopted instead" ). A lot of teachers do a lot more than they are contracted, or even paid, to do. I would say parents of children in schools are breathign a sigh of relief that it isnt a full work to rule policy being undertaken.
In the past, as a non-union worker, I've adopted a work to rule policy before when a manger balled me over being 10 minutes late for work (bus was stuck in traffic) but happily ignored the lunches I worked through and the fact that I regularly stayed an extra hour to hour and a half to work of servers without disrupting the sales teams. It caused a few problems but the manager quickly realised that ten minutes (and not even ten minutes where something had gone wrong!) was not too much of a transgression after all. - I ended up getting a "commuting time allowance" written into my contract that allowed for unforeseen circumstances, and the manager official verbal warning revoked.
@irish_bob : I would be happy to have my wages compared to european counterparts when my mortgage repayments, car tax, car insurance, electricity costs, gas costs, broadband quality (for some its not just a source of entertainment, its a tool for work) and costs, public transport costs etc etc etc etc are also compared.0 -
my basic point is that, if the pay of a teacher has been increased to such a point that its a well-paid job, then a small decrease to reflect the current circumstances is not going to change things
even with a pay cut a teaching job would be extremely attractive to much of the workforce/students
It may well be but I would never be in favour of decreases in teacher pay unless we had even more significant decreases in the cost of living.0 -
I want to keep the best and the brightest in the profession.
Secondary school teachers are no where need the best and the brightest.
It is easy to become a secondary school teacher, there are many entry routes to the H-Dip.
The most common is Arts, which requires very low LC / CAO points and very few hours a week.
The job itself isnt intellectually challenging. The books and syllabus are provided, and the exams are handled by an external party. The skills required are communication skills and controlling teenagers, not intelligence.
edit/ Primary teachers are a very different kettle of fish imo0 -
Thinking of teaching? Pay is fairly good and so are the "hols",but you will need them to recover,if you are an overly sensitive soul.Tread carefully for the classroom can be a veritable minefield0
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Rebelheart wrote: »There is something wrong when a mere lawyer or accountant can be held in more esteem than a teacher, somebody in whom Irish parents entrust their children's education, happiness and a very large part of their childhood.
Yes, bizzare, its not like those professionals by and large did better in their leaving certs, studied more hours at university, spent another 3+ years getting qualified in practice and make difficult decisions on a day-to-day basis.
Yes, a mere lawyer or accountant, sure anybody could be one couldnt they?50 years ago when the social "standards" of a strong church, "reliable" moral values, respect for "authority" and much else gave moral support to the teacher's daily work. This radical change, at the very least, should be factored into any discussion of teachers in 2009.
What you call diminishing standards I call progress.0 -
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Stabshauptmann wrote: »Secondary school teachers are no where need the best and the brightest.
It is easy to become a secondary school teacher, there are many entry routes to the H-Dip.
The most common is Arts, which requires very low LC / CAO points and very few hours a week.
The job itself isnt intellectually challenging. The books and syllabus are provided, and the exams are handled by an external party. The skills required are communication skills and controlling teenagers, not intelligence.
edit/ Primary teachers are a very different kettle of fish imo
So you dont think you need to be intelligent to be a secondary teacher??
This has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have seen on this subject.0 -
sorry but that sounds like elitist rubbish to me. did it ever occur to you that someone with maximum points in their leaving might actually CHOOSE to do arts?
I'm sure all of the great literary minds of the ages were in actual fact trained accountants and lawyers who thought, "Shakespeare? sure he was just an arts student, I'm in a better respected career sure I'll pick up a pen and write something, how hard can it be!"
I really doubt whether your choice of course in college can be claimed as a de facto indication of your level of intelligence.
As for anyone can be an accountant, well, not everyone but having studied financial accounting, it is actually rather easy. sure, its hard to remember gearing ratios in an exam and reconstruct balance sheets from incomplete accounts but in practise (and I have had practise) its a lot easier as you dont have the same time contraints and you can actually check your figures.
A lack of respect for authority and a lack of morality or ethics are what you would call progress? thats not even worth arguing about tbh.0 -
Stabshauptmann wrote: »Yes, bizzare, its not like those professionals by and large did better in their leaving certs, studied more hours at university, spent another 3+ years getting qualified in practice and make difficult decisions on a day-to-day basis.
Yes, a mere lawyer or accountant, sure anybody could be one couldnt they?
What you call diminishing standards I call progress.
Can you point to actual proof that accountants as a group do/have done better in their leaving certificates than teachers, I think you'll find the barriers to entry into teaching are higher than those put in front of you if you want to gain an accountancy qualification. Similarly there are ways and means to become a solicitor via back door also. + a large number of very high points achievers (500+) choose to do teaching qualifications I know this from the course choices of students who went to my school but Im sure I can dig up some stats to support + I also remember just how hard it was to get on the hDip course when I done it.
Im not saying that teachers are any more intelligent than accountants/solicitor, just making the point that to say the opposite is fairly ridiculous.
btw quite a large number of teachers now have more than just degree and hdip qualifications. When I left I had an MSc and diploma in ed along with degree and hdip.
+when in college my science course had one of the highest contact hours requirements in the college and I can guarantee you the guys studying law didnt put in any more hours studying than people in my course.
As for what you call progress....you would know if you had to stand up in front of an Anto or Shayo or Deco 38 times a week with almost no ability to impose meaningful sanctions/consequences on continuous anti social/violent/threatening/lazy/arrogant/disruptive behaviour ---then again I suppose solicitors can make a mint out of this type of behaviour.0 -
Laws of averages and statistics will point to the fact that the average someone who is doing a course with an entry requirement of 500 points, will have gotten a significantly higher score than someone whose course entry is 300 points.
But sure, if we're going down that route, why not slag off all the professions, and put teachers at the top of the pedestal.
Teachers relatively high pay is a result of being a closed shop, not due to intellectual prowess. That is not saying that there are not very intelligent teachers, just that some other professions will have a higher average (such as solicitors or doctors).0 -
on the face of it, you are right about the law of averages and points on a course but it is still wrong to simply assume that just because a person does an Arts degree that they are less intelligent than someone studying medicine or law and then use that as a springboard to deride an entire profession.0
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Laws of averages and statistics will point to the fact that the average someone who is doing a course with an entry requirement of 500 points, will have gotten a significantly higher score than someone whose course entry is 300 points.
But sure, if we're going down that route, why not slag off all the professions, and put teachers at the top of the pedestal.
Teachers relatively high pay is a result of being a closed shop, not due to intellectual prowess. That is not saying that there are not very intelligent teachers, just that some other professions will have a higher average (such as solicitors or doctors).
Explain how teaching is a closed shop??0 -
Id love to know where you went to school then. The last US school I sat in was rife with Racism from the administration down to the students - and that was blacks racist towards whites, mind you. Aside from that their entire attitude toward education was entirely different and from my perspective very fundamentally flawed. Lets get me started ranting about Multiple Choice exams and work my way down.I was educated in Italy, the USA, Ireland and Australia. The quality of teaching was lowest in Ireland. We don't have especially good teachers in this country. We certainly don't have teachers so good that they should be paid much more that teachers in richer countries.
As for Teacher-Student ratios, if you want to talk US - Its The Law. In many states and at many age grades, its unlawful for those ratios to reach a certain threshold anyway.
In my opinion there are some truly amazing teachers in the State of Ireland, and while spongers aren't entirely non-existent, they are few in number: we as obnoxious, spit-balling students see fit to uphold Natural Selection.0 -
Laws of averages and statistics will point to the fact that the average someone who is doing a course with an entry requirement of 500 points, will have gotten a significantly higher score than someone whose course entry is 300 points
I don't think you need laws of averages and statistics to know that someone entering a course with a requirement of 500 points has to get a higher score than someone entering a course with a requirement of 300, those are the entry requirements, you don't get in if you dont have the points.
This isnt really the point I was making at all, my point was that it can be much harder to gain entry to course offering a teaching qualification than a course offering an accountancy/law qualification. I was making this point in response to a post that claimed accountants/solicitors have to have better leaving certs to do their courses which is simply not true (there are plenty of back doors for both + the points for hdip ed which comes after the degree are very high due to demand + many of the degrees which are suitable to go do hdips are quite high points courses..my own included + many students with more points than are necessary opt for teaching qualifications)But sure, if we're going down that route, why not slag off all the professions, and put teachers at the top of the pedestal.
Completely agree, its a narrow mindset indeed. Youll notice that I did not go down that route first and was simply replying in kind..I wouldnt place teachers at the top of any pedestal...neither however would I falsely claim that accountants were better than them/had to work harder than them in college/got better leaving cert results etc when it simply isnt true (and not just in a minority of cases)Teachers relatively high pay is a result of being a closed shop, not due to intellectual prowess. That is not saying that there are not very intelligent teachers, just that some other professions will have a higher average (such as solicitors or doctors).
Its hard to argue with you on the above, I presume you are right in the case of doctors at least they should have higher academic attainment on average due to the fact you couldnt get to be a doctor over the last five/ten years without a near perfect leaving certificate whereas you could get to be a teacher with less points - not really the case with solicitors and accountants (the examples given by the original poster I was responding to) though - lads with 300 points and sometimes below can do accountancy qualifications. I think though that educational attainment and intelligence are not the exact same thing though and there are a lot of different types of intelligence which can be harnessed to be successful in this world that are not measured by a leaving cert.0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »What would you consider a comparable position in the private sector and what level of pay does that position command.?
How about something similar to my own job. A manager of 25 people who have to be dragged along to get any work out of them.
And i get 6 figures and then some for that. And a nice sum paid by my company into my pension. And i never have to work past 5pm or before 9am and can have whatever time i feel like for lunch. And 26 days hols a year.
Dont know why people think the private sector is worse off than the public sector. Its not. All of my staff would lose money if they were bench marked against similar positions to their own in the public sector0 -
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Id love to know where you went to school then. The last US school I sat in was rife with Racism from the administration down to the students
I went to Hyde elementary school Washington DC and Hardy middle school washington DC both better than the fee paying school I attended in Dublin.0
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