Lecturing in PLC colleges

givyjoe81

Im just about to finish my masters in international business (i.e. hand in my thesis) and had wanted to, at some point in the future take up lecturing. Aside from the masters, i have a post grad dip in law and a degree in business managment. Briefly spoke to my thesis supervisor who tells me to get a whiff of a job in DIT these days you would need a phd, first of all is this true/accurate.

Secondly I had aimed my sights somewhat lower, former student of IT Tallaght and would love to be back there sooner rather than later lecturing, however I would also settle for the likes PLC 'colleges' such as Crumlin etc, former student of there too! Had a brief look on the latter's sitre, but sweet fa info on it.

Any help or advice appreciated, even if its to shoot down my dreams! Just be nice about it!:D

Thanks.

spurious

You'd be 'settling' for a second level teacher qualification.
Most PLC courses are run in VEC staffed centres.

Tom Dunne

Lecturing positions are practically impossible to come by. I've been looking for one for the past 5 years and the best I was offered was a few hours here and a few hours there. Not a whole lot of use when you need to pay a mortgage.

Typically, for an IT, you would need at least an MSc. or a PhD for a senior lecturer position.

givyjoe81

spurious wrote: »

You'd be 'settling' for a second level teacher qualification.
Most PLC courses are run in VEC staffed centres.

Eh, sorry did i offend you or something?! Back when i was a student in Crumlin i really dont know what the standard of qualifications was as it seemed a bit random. Mate just finished a course there who had been lectured by a girl only 22 only in the process of completing her masters.

As for IT's, if an MSC will get me in then super, prob be waiting a fair old while though.

namoosh

try logging on to cdvec.ie and go to vacancies. further ed is tarted up second level but will give you the experience that might get you a lecturing position, try codubvec as well

rainbowtrout

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Eh, sorry did i offend you or something?! Back when i was a student in Crumlin i really dont know what the standard of qualifications was as it seemed a bit random. Mate just finished a course there who had been lectured by a girl only 22 only in the process of completing her masters.
As for IT's, if an MSC will get me in then super, prob be waiting a fair old while though.

You don't know what the qualifications needed were but you would 'settle' for a job in a PLC college? As spurious said, they are mainly staffed by VEC staff, so you're looking at second level qualifications - the PGDE to become a business studies teacher. I started teaching PLC when I was 22, I've been running the centre since I was 26. I wasn't any less qualified then than the teachers that were older than me. You don't need a masters to teach at PLC level, but you sound like you're looking down on this girl because she was doing the same.

An MSc is also the minimum qualfication needed to get into an IT. It doesn't mean you'll get a job, experience comes into it too. One of my friends has a PhD and can't get a job at third level, she's still secondary teaching.

Were-rabbit

namoosh wrote: »

try logging on to cdvec.ie and go to vacancies. further ed is tarted up second level but will give you the experience that might get you a lecturing position, try codubvec as well

PLC (its old title not really used by the VECs anymore) now called Further Education its academic standard is mainly aimed at FETAC level 5 and FETAC Level 6. Most Further Education Colleges are in fact VEC run. It was only last September that they were meant to be given new status and structures (and the staff new contracts so would no longer be 2nd level but a new further education level) that is untill the economy went belly up.

Tarted up 2nd level???
well a good FETAC level 5 (5+ distinctions usually) is intended to replace a leaving certificate result sheet, and to allow the student access though the higher education links scheme to courses within most of the ITs and a number of university courses . (the links depend on the award code and the the options set up with the higher education institutions) .

FETAC Level 6 in academic terms may see a good result sheet may allow direct entry into 2nd year on certain IT degree programmes. these links are still in development as FETAC level 6 relatively new in most areas. (It also can be used with the existing higher education links scheme for 1st year entry)

From my experience most of the staff teaching have post graduate degrees and often industry experience in their subject areas (those who came from a former 2nd level existence far and few between by this stage most employed directly into the PLC/FE sector jobs). This is vocational education and preparation, not all will want to advance to further academic some aim at getting out into the work place as soon as they are confident and ready.

namoosh

In my experience most Further Ed teachers do not have post grad qualifications, some do not have third level qualifications at all and retain their positions as Contracts of Indefinite Duration, most would have a basic degree. The standard of teaching is quite good by and large, you have the few bad apples that exist everywhere.

The main problem they face is the resource hog that is FETAC, all their course modules must be validated by FETAC. FETAC has no national standard, there is no consistent standard within centres let alone between them, most FETAC modules are years out of date, few employers (with the exception of childcare) have heard of it, nearly all Further ED courses have an independent qualification (IATI, ITEC, C&G etc) as well as the obligitory FETAC ones, this is necessary as the majority of student seek employment at the end of the course and employers have not heard of FETAC. FETAC is useless (Childcare excepted) for jobseeking, most students doing a PLC (sorry Further Ed) would probably have gotten a place in an IT if they applied on time.

The courses they do really well are the niche ones that aren't covered by the IT's and have non FETAC qualifications as well. DON'T do a course that has JUST a FETAC qualification! (Childcare excepted).

Its a lot easier than the leaving and its definitely tarted up 2nd level!
The 'Colleges' are on the Dept of Ed's books as second level schools, transfer of staff between Further Ed & 2nd level school is quite commonplace.

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

In my experience most Further Ed teachers do not have post grad qualifications, some do not have third level qualifications at all and retain their positions as Contracts of Indefinite Duration, most would have a basic degree.

Your experience is not that broad then! ALL of the teachers in my centre have third level qualifications and, with one or two exceptions, have their teaching postgrads. This is the case is any centre based in a second level school.

I take your point about the good teaching, but still, such a sweeping generalisation gives a bad impression of what has become a very important sector.

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

In my experience most Further Ed teachers do not have post grad qualifications, some do not have third level qualifications at all and retain their positions as Contracts of Indefinite Duration, most would have a basic degree. The standard of teaching is quite good by and large, you have the few bad apples that exist everywhere.

As opposed to what other kind of degree? I need a degree and a teaching qualification to teach in a secondary school. Check. My school offers PLC. Check. I teach PLC. I don't see the problem.

There are plenty of teachers who do not have post grad qualifications aside from the HDip.

Not having third level qualifications and teaching Further Ed would be restricted mainly to centres such as Youthreach centres perhaps, or centres that don't have direct links with a secondary school. Certainly any PLC centre attached to a secondary school has secondary qualified teachers teaching the courses.

Also many different bodies came together under FETAC so all awards were standardised, FAS, CERT, Bord Iascaigh Mhara etc. There are no third level qualifications in hairdressing or floristry as far as I'm aware. So people teaching such courses may not have third level qualifications but may have qualifications relevant to the course. The courses they were offering previously may not have relevant third level qualifications attached to them. All the modules seem to have been amalgamated into one list on the FETAC site recently, I've seen a few odd ones there... Funeral Administration was one that comes to mind.

namoosh

Your centre must be unique! To quote rainbow trout "There are no third level qualifications in hairdressing or floristry as far as I'm aware. So people teaching such courses may not have third level qualifications but may have qualifications relevant to the course." Personally I'd rather have a qualified hairdresser teaching me than a BA who's been drafted in to teach hairdressing because there are insufficient hours in his/her area and who has done a 10 week course over the summer to 'qualify them'!

Youthreach ain't Further Ed, completely different area, Further Ed = Cushy Number, Youthreach = Hard Stations

The issue in Further Education is the lack of a FETAC national standard and the resources it consumes. Dept of Ed Policy until this year a least has been to gradually reduce the number of PLC/Further Ed places through the cap in order to channel prospective students to the IT's who were struggling for numbers, and eventually phase it out.

Further Ed would do better focusing on what they do really well which is trade type qualifications and stop trying to compete with the IT's. FETAC needs to get its act together, set a national standard and SELL ITSELF TO EMPLOYERS!

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

In my experience most Further Ed teachers do not have post grad qualifications, some do not have third level qualifications at all.

Your original post implied that Further Ed teachers had no qualifications in anything! This is not true. All in my centre have third level qualifications and the vast majority have a teaching qualification. They may not have a qualification specific to each module, but as Rainbowtrout pointed out, this is not also possible. When it is, for example a Biology teacher can teach Human Growth & development, while an Art teacher can easily cover Art, Craft & Design for Children.

namoosh wrote: »

Further Ed would do better focusing on what they do really well which is trade type qualifications and stop trying to compete with the IT's.

I'm not seeing this competition in our centre. FE offers a back door into courses for students, who may not have got the points the first time around. Our centre ADDS to the numbers who attend the IT in my area and many of our graduates go on to gain employment.

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

Personally I'd rather have a qualified hairdresser teaching me than a BA who's been drafted in to teach hairdressing because there are insufficient hours in his/her area and who has done a 10 week course over the summer to 'qualify them'!

In your previous post you were going on about tutors in Further Education centres having no third level qualifications and now you're saying you would prefer a qualified hairdresser to teach you rather than a BA grad. This is the point I was trying to make, in some of the vocational type courses, eg Hairdressing of course a person trained in this area is not going to hold a degree in hairdressing, so it's very much a sweeping generalisation to say that not all tutors in FE Centres have third level qualifications. They are relevant to some of their areas of work. However where they are relevant in my experience the tutors are generally qualified. The centre I work in focuses on Business, IT type courses. So business teachers teach the business subjects and so on.

namoosh wrote: »

Youthreach ain't Further Ed, completely different area, Further Ed = Cushy Number, Youthreach = Hard Stations

The YR centre local to me offers Leaving Cert Applied and PLC courses. It's also insulting to say Further Ed is a cushy number, there may not be the discipline problems that may exist at second level, but there will be a huge range of ability within one class on a FE course. Ranging from barely literate to college graduate sometimes. That's hard going being able to teach all levels within the one class and being able to give every student time. I started teaching a maths module today and there are students in the class who sailed through maths in the leaving cert and those who did not know what to do with x + 3 = 7. It's by far cushy.

namoosh wrote: »

The issue in Further Education is the lack of a FETAC national standard and the resources it consumes. Dept of Ed Policy until this year a least has been to gradually reduce the number of PLC/Further Ed places through the cap in order to channel prospective students to the IT's who were struggling for numbers, and eventually phase it out.

Further Ed would do better focusing on what they do really well which is trade type qualifications and stop trying to compete with the IT's. FETAC needs to get its act together, set a national standard and SELL ITSELF TO EMPLOYERS!

FE is not competing with ITs. Many students use it as a way of getting into ITs. We send students to third level every year who would not have got there with their Leaving Cert (because of lack of points/requirements etc). Also there are a number of students who come to us with Leaving Cert Applied who are not eligible for third level and use the PLC course to get there. Some of them would never have got there the conventional way and the extra year helps enormously, giving them another year to gain more knowledge but also to get into the routine of independent learning, in terms of making presentations, putting projects and reports together etc. Many of our students come back to collect their portfolios every year because they want to make use of them for college

A lot of adults use it to get back into the workforce as well. Locally my centre is well regarded and many local businesses get in contact towards the end of the school year if they have vacancies to find out if we have any suitable for the position. That to me is a success of the course in an area of poor employment prospects.

namoosh

My original post said that most Further Ed teachers had no POST GRAD qualifications and SOME for reasons already outlined had no 3rd level qualifications. The standard of teaching is quite good.

The points I am trying to make (and seemingly not very well) are

The complete lack of awareness of FETAC by employers
The lack of a national standard within FETAC
The lack of a FETAC standard within FETAC centres.
Most Further Ed students would have enough points to get into the IT's anyway.
The Dept of Ed long term plan is to let Further Ed wither and die

namoosh

There is a queue of teachers trying to transfer from vocational and youthreach into Further Ed, no queue wishing to transfer in the other direction. You can draw your own conclusions. Have worked in all three areas, Further Ed rocks!!! Rainbowtrout started teaching today every other 2nd level teacher started 2 weeks ago!!! Further Ed = Cushy Number

I would agree that Further Ed is great for adults, it gives them confidence, helps them return to the workforce and/or proceed to 3rd level successfully, not nearly as good for school leavers, it will get them there but most won't suceed.

Intresting to note that no one took issue with my points on FETAC.:D

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

There is a queue of teachers trying to transfer from vocational and youthreach into Further Ed, no queue wishing to transfer in the other direction. You can draw your own conclusions. Have worked in all three areas, Further Ed rocks!!! Rainbowtrout started teaching today every other 2nd level teacher started 2 weeks ago!!! Further Ed = Cushy Number
I would agree that Further Ed is great for adults, it gives them confidence, helps them return to the workforce and/or proceed to 3rd level successfully, not nearly as good for school leavers, it will get them there but most won't suceed.

Intresting to note that no one took issue with my points on FETAC.:D

I take that as a personal insult namoosh. I start back to work on August 26th this year and have been working hard for the last three weeks so I don't know where you got the idea that I only started work yesterday. If you decided that I only started working yesterday because I only started teaching a particular module yesterday, you have very little idea on how a school operates... changes to timetables, teaching hours, staff, numbers in classes, demand for certain subjects can have a huge effect on how a PLC centre or a school operates. I've got three subjects on my timetable which I haven't had before, I've never been busier preparing work for class.

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I take that as a personal insult namoosh. I start back to work on August 26th this year and have been working hard for the last three weeks so I don't know where you got the idea that I only started work yesterday. If you decided that I only started working yesterday because I only started teaching a particular module yesterday, you have very little idea on how a school operates... changes to timetables, teaching hours, staff, numbers in classes, demand for certain subjects can have a huge effect on how a PLC centre or a school operates. I've got three subjects on my timetable which I haven't had before, I've never been busier preparing work for class.

A teacher is paid for a 40 hour week. He/She has 22 hours class contact, the remaining 18 hours are for class preparation, corrections etc. Your teaching hours are fixed, senior management do the timetabling, it takes as much time and effort to prepare a class for one as it does for thirty.

So as opposed to a mainstream 2nd level teacher who has had 18 hours a week to prepare for classes you have had 40 hours a week for the last two weeks.

Happy Days !

droglife

Hope you dont mind me jumping in the middle of your little "disagreement" but I was hoping there would be more information on how people not in the system, namely me, might go about getting teaching opportunities ie VTOS, PLC's etc. I dont have a Hdip but I do have a degree in Maths which Im getting verified by the teaching council atm.
Im interested in teaching this subject and I see this as a way to do it without doing the Dip.
Any suggestions/thoughts welcome.

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

A teacher is paid for a 40 hour week. He/She has 22 hours class contact, the remaining 18 hours are for class preparation, corrections etc. Your teaching hours are fixed, senior management do the timetabling, it takes as much time and effort to prepare a class for one as it does for thirty.

So as opposed to a mainstream 2nd level teacher who has had 18 hours a week to prepare for classes you have had 40 hours a week for the last two weeks.

Happy Days !

Just goes to show how much you generalise the education system without really knowing anything about it. I teach in a PLC centre, I am the coordinator of the centre, the centre is part of a secondary school and I have hours in both. I teach 22 hours a week as well as preparation time and doing whatever I have to do in terms of co-ordination. My principal timetables me for a certain number of hours in PLC and lets me sort out my subjects myself. I realise that not everyone has that luxury but I do. And you still seem to think that I haven't been doing a tap for the last two weeks when I've been in the classroom teaching. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

rainbowtrout

droglife wrote: »

Hope you dont mind me jumping in the middle of your little "disagreement" but I was hoping there would be more information on how people not in the system, namely me, might go about getting teaching opportunities ie VTOS, PLC's etc. I dont have a Hdip but I do have a degree in Maths which Im getting verified by the teaching council atm.
Im interested in teaching this subject and I see this as a way to do it without doing the Dip.
Any suggestions/thoughts welcome.

Well as you probably know there are little or no teaching jobs out there now, and less because of the budget cutbacks. There are a lot of qualified teachers already out there looking for work, so work will probably go to teachers that are qualified before teachers that are unqualified.

namoosh

droglife wrote: »

Hope you dont mind me jumping in the middle of your little "disagreement" but I was hoping there would be more information on how people not in the system, namely me, might go about getting teaching opportunities ie VTOS, PLC's etc. I dont have a Hdip but I do have a degree in Maths which Im getting verified by the teaching council atm.
Im interested in teaching this subject and I see this as a way to do it without doing the Dip.
Any suggestions/thoughts welcome.

Hi Droglife, You dont need a HDip to to teach in a VEC all you need is a degree which is relevant to your subject area or a degree and a qualification that is relevant to your subject area and is recognised by the teaching council/vec, (if the teaching council are't sure they will refer it to the VEC), garda vetting and thats it! Most VEC's have a panel of reserve part time teachers, try to get on it, also try to get a few hours teaching in a VEC at night. Usually they will give you a few hours at first to see how you get on. With just maths you are limiting your appeal, I'd go for maths, statistics, accounting, business studies and any related area that a maths qual will cover. Look on the various VEC websites, they will advertise any vacancies

Good Luck!.

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Just goes to show how much you generalise the education system without really knowing anything about it. I teach in a PLC centre, I am the coordinator of the centre, the centre is part of a secondary school and I have hours in both. I teach 22 hours a week as well as preparation time and doing whatever I have to do in terms of co-ordination. My principal timetables me for a certain number of hours in PLC and lets me sort out my subjects myself. I realise that not everyone has that luxury but I do. And you still seem to think that I haven't been doing a tap for the last two weeks when I've been in the classroom teaching. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

If you do not have a post of responsibility your principal has given you an imaginery title, saddled you and ridden you quite a distance down the road. The duties of a class III teacher ( Everyone without a post of responsibility) is teach your hours and keep a register.

namoosh

Rainbowtrout re read your last post, if you are teaching 22 hours and doing all that as well your principal is really taking the piss (Seriously) tui.ie probably or asti.ie. If you are permanent staff fight your corner, if hours part time for 4 years automatic CID. :eek:

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

If you do not have a post of responsibility your principal has given you an imaginery title, saddled you and ridden you quite a distance down the road. The duties of a class III teacher ( Everyone without a post of responsibility) is teach your hours and keep a register.

I do have a post of responsibility... to be honest you're just trolling now and trying to insult me in any way you can.

namoosh

special duties, asistant ot deputy?

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

Hi Droglife, You dont need a HDip to to teach in a VEC all you need is a degree which is relevant to your subject area or a degree and a qualification that is relevant to your subject area and is recognised by the teaching council

While it is technically true that you don't need a HDip, in the current climate there are a hell of a lot of unemployed qualified teachers out there. They will be first in the queue, so OP, I wouldn't be too optimistic. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

namoosh

deemark wrote: »

While it is technically true that you don't need a HDip, in the current climate there are a hell of a lot of unemployed qualified teachers out there. They will be first in the queue, so OP, I wouldn't be too optimistic. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

From the point of view of qualifications I would agree, but it will take a while for graduates from industry to accept the reduction in pay, also and far more importantly not everyone can teach!

implausible

My, hasn't this turned interesting?

For a thread that started off as someone looking for info about teaching in FE, we have now got into the merits of said system.

Namoosh, I think you'll find that it has been shown that (a) the FE sector does have recognition for employment and that (b) it isn't taking from the ITs. Many of the students in FE wouldn't get into 3rd level. This year we have been told to get as many 'bums on seats' as possible, so I'm not seeing the phasing out in action.

Secondly, there is no need to attack the system, which plays a very valuable role, or demean anyone who is involved in it.

Your arguments are based on your own personal experience. Yet, when I, or other experienced FETAC teachers, correct your information about the system, you dismiss it!

In an ideal world, all FETAC co-ordinators should be A post holders and should not have a full 22hour teaching contract. In my VEC, I know of one FETAC co-ordinator who does no teaching and another who is a form teacher, has several mainstream classes and co-ordinates and teaches her own course. This isn't right, the union would have massive problems with it, but for the courses to continue, someone has to do it.

Some people put their heart and soul into this system, which, despite its flaws, works and provides invaluable second-chance education to people who otherwise would not get it.

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Just goes to show how much you generalise the education system without really knowing anything about it. I teach in a PLC centre, I am the coordinator of the centre, the centre is part of a secondary school and I have hours in both. I teach 22 hours a week as well as preparation time and doing whatever I have to do in terms of co-ordination. My principal timetables me for a certain number of hours in PLC and lets me sort out my subjects myself. I realise that not everyone has that luxury but I do. And you still seem to think that I haven't been doing a tap for the last two weeks when I've been in the classroom teaching. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

22 hours you are Special Duties OMG!!

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

From the point of view of qualifications I would agree, but it will take a while for graduates from industry to accept the reduction in pay, also and far more importantly not everyone can teach!

??????

namoosh

deemark wrote: »

My, hasn't this turned interesting?

For a thread that started off as someone looking for info about teaching in FE, we have now got into the merits of said system.

Namoosh, I think you'll find that it has been shown that (a) the FE sector does have recognition for employment and that (b) it isn't taking from the ITs. Many of the students in FE wouldn't get into 3rd level. This year we have been told to get as many 'bums on seats' as possible, so I'm not seeing the phasing out in action.

Secondly, there is no need to attack the system, which plays a very valuable role, or demean anyone who is involved in it.

Your arguments are based on your own personal experience. Yet, when I, or other experienced FETAC teachers, correct your information about the system, you dismiss it!

In an ideal world, all FETAC co-ordinators should be A post holders and should not have a full 22hour teaching contract. In my VEC, I know of one FETAC co-ordinator who does no teaching and another who is a form teacher, has several mainstream classes and co-ordinates and teaches her own course. This isn't right, the union would have massive problems with it, but for the courses to continue, someone has to do it.

Some people put their heart and soul into this system, which, despite its flaws, works and provides invaluable second-chance education to people who otherwise would not get it.

(a) The only ad I've ever seen looking for a FETAC qualification is Childcare.

(b) The Dept of Ed cap on FE places has not been increased. (Co. Meath VEC excepted) The IT's were struggling for numbers BIG TIME until the economy crashed.

(c) On this forum no one has addressed my issues regarding FETAC.

(d) The FETAC co ordinators job (VEC) is to make sure all the pieces of paper are in place when the assessor arrives. Most assessors have no qualifications in the areas they assess. They can only ensure that due procedure is followed and no one has made a mistake adding up the marks.

(e) There is no FETAC national standard.

(f) The policy in FE has Always been to get as many bums on seats as possible, regardless of their suitability for the course, or chances of completion. Note retention surveys in FE's are always done before Xmas (80%), as opposed to May (60%) Completion rates in 3rd level?

(g) Good for adults or/and a return to education.

(h) Union (TUI) is useless, pension levy, recruitment freeze etc. etc. and total inaction. TUI Gen sec gets a car as part of his package, branch sec's get laptop, mobile phone (bill paid of course) and 8k tax free a year, what have they done for you his year? No recession there!

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

(a) The only ad I've ever seen looking for a FETAC qualification is Childcare.

(b) The Dept of Ed cap on FE places has not been increased. (Co. Meath VEC excepted) The IT's were struggling for numbers BIG TIME until the economy crashed.

(c) On this forum no one has addressed my issues regarding FETAC.

(d) The FETAC co ordinators job (VEC) is to make sure all the pieces of paper are in place when the assessor arrives. Most assessors have no qualifications in the areas they assess. They can only ensure that due procedure is followed and no one has made a mistake adding up the marks.

(e) There is no FETAC national standard.

(f) The policy in FE has Always been to get as many bums on seats as possible, regardless of their suitability for the course, or chances of completion. Note retention surveys in FE's are always done before Xmas (80%), as opposed to May (60%) Completion rates in 3rd level?

(g) Good for adults or/and a return to education.

(a) so therefore nobody ever recognises FETAC awards anywhere?:rolleyes:

(b) this is due to a lack of money, certainly not a lack of demand. What's your point? That the govt again, is scrimping on education.

(c) you keep saying this, yet, I and others have. You just choose to ignore any evidence that shows the value of FE or its recognition.

(d) so the FETAC co-ordinator just fills in bits of paper then? In some centres, they could be running, planning and promoting 8, 10 or 12 courses. In our centre, our co-ordinator has the prospect of 150 students enrolling. There are principals of schools who have less students to deal with! The lack of qualification of assessors is a problem, but a logistical and funding one. Sometimes, the assessor is qualified, but s/he is not there to mark the work, but to verify that the marking has been done properly.

(e) Every centre uses standard FETAC modules. You get the same with LCA and TY!

(f) and no-one ever drops out of school/IT/university? Bums on seats is not unique to FE.

(g) 18 year olds with a not-so-good Leaving Cert are returning to education, to a system of assessment that doesn't rely on one exam mark.

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

(h) Union (TUI) is useless, pension levy, recruitment freeze etc. etc. and total inaction. TUI Gen sec gets a car as part of his package, branch sec's get laptop, mobile phone (bill paid of course) and 8k tax free a year, what have they done for you his year? No recession there!

Now, there's a whole other thread!

When did that come in for the branch secretaries??????

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

(d) so the FETAC co-ordinator just fills in bits of paper then? In some centres, they could be running, planning and promoting 8, 10 or 12 courses. In our centre, our co-ordinator has the prospect of 150 students enrolling. There are principals of schools who have less students to deal with! The lack of qualification of assessors is a problem, but a logistical and funding one. Sometimes, the assessor is qualified, but s/he is not there to mark the work, but to verify that the marking has been done properly.

not to mind keeping an eye on attendance, dealing with grants, dealing with students that have problems, trying to come up with a set of subjects for a student that really wants to be there but has a lot of commitments with children, job, return to education after many years, sorting out problems with computers - either fixing them on the spot or getting someone in to do so, meetings with principal to let him know how things are going, taking students aside to get them back on course if they're not keeping up with coursework in a particular subject, getting copies of exams, briefs and marking schemes off teachers, making sure teachers that are teaching PLC for the first time know how the system works.

I'm sure namoosh would just consider that a cushy number though.

namoosh

deemark wrote: »

(a) so therefore nobody ever recognises FETAC awards anywhere?:rolleyes:

(b) this is due to a lack of money, certainly not a lack of demand. What's your point? That the govt again, is scrimping on education.

(c) you keep saying this, yet, I and others have. You just choose to ignore any evidence that shows the value of FE or its recognition.

(d) so the FETAC co-ordinator just fills in bits of paper then? In some centres, they could be running, planning and promoting 8, 10 or 12 courses. In our centre, our co-ordinator has the prospect of 150 students enrolling. There are principals of schools who have less students to deal with! The lack of qualification of assessors is a problem, but a logistical and funding one. Sometimes, the assessor is qualified, but s/he is not there to mark the work, but to verify that the marking has been done properly.

(e) Every centre uses standard FETAC modules. You get the same with LCA and TY!

(f) and no-one ever drops out of school/IT/university? Bums on seats is not unique to FE.

(g) 18 year olds with a not-so-good Leaving Cert are returning to education, to a system of assessment that doesn't rely on one exam mark.

(a) Show me the job advertisement.

(b) Dept policy is to channel students into the IT's not Further Ed.

(c) Refer to (a) above. it will get you into an IT, most students want a job at the end of the course.

(d) The FETAC co ordinator co ordinates the presentation of work for the assessor. They don't run, plan or promote the courses, that is done by the teachers, most of whom regard FETAC as a pain in the ar*e, they are underpaid for FETAC work and most only complete it out of a sense of duty to their students, they are not contractually obliged to do it. The amount of paperwork alone must consume a small rainforest. City & Guilds don't charge much more than FETAC, they provide a qualified assessor and have an online testing system to validate results as well. Most Further Ed courses offer an external professional qualification with FETAC as an add on.

(e) They are years out of date.

(f) Agreed

(h) Most would get into an IT anyway.

namoosh

deemark wrote: »

Now, there's a whole other thread!

When did that come in for the branch secretaries??????

Sorry area reps.

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

not to mind keeping an eye on attendance, dealing with grants, dealing with students that have problems, trying to come up with a set of subjects for a student that really wants to be there but has a lot of commitments with children, job, return to education after many years, sorting out problems with computers - either fixing them on the spot or getting someone in to do so, meetings with principal to let him know how things are going, taking students aside to get them back on course if they're not keeping up with coursework in a particular subject, getting copies of exams, briefs and marking schemes off teachers, making sure teachers that are teaching PLC for the first time know how the system works.

I'm sure namoosh would just consider that a cushy number though.

Rainbowtrout if you are doing all of that as a special duties teacher ( I assume you are as you are teaching 22 hours) you are off your rocker!

Attendance is a function of the deputy principal/principal.

Grants are be dealt with by the VEC administrative offices.

Centres offer courses not individual packages.

Fixing computers is usually done by an IT technician, way cheaper than using teaching time to do it.

Meeting the principal! He/She must LOVE you as from what you have said you are doing most of his/her work.

Students, I agree totally.

Thats the job of the FETAC co ordinator.

Thats the principal/vice principals job.

rainbowtrout

namoosh wrote: »

Rainbowtrout if you are doing all of that as a special duties teacher ( I assume you are as you are teaching 22 hours) you are off your rocker!

Attendance is a function of the deputy principal/principal.

Grants are be dealt with by the VEC administrative offices.

Centres offer courses not individual packages.

Fixing computers is usually done by an IT technician, way cheaper than using teaching time to do it.

Meeting the principal! He/She must LOVE you as from what you have said you are doing most of his/her work.

Students, I agree totally.

Thats the job of the FETAC co ordinator.

Thats the principal/vice principals job.

And you still have no idea how the system works! I'm astounded that you will persistently come on here to insult teachers about their jobs, when you don't know what the set up is in an individual school or centre, yet you're quite happy to make sweeping generalisations about the whole sector and everyone who works in it.

FYI: I have more experience of FETAC/PLC than anyone else in my school, including the principal. He has admitted this on several occasions. It would be easy to say leave it all to the principal, deputy principal, assistant principal, whoever you would care to nominate, one way or the other, the work wouldn't get done and me and other PLC teachers would still end up doing it.

We operate out of a separate building to the secondary school, so are you telling me that if I see a student out of class when they should be in class, I should spend my time ringing the principal telling him to sort it out, when i can speak to the student on the spot? Get real.

Grants are issued by cheque and are based on attendance. As I teach a large number of subjects and am basically the person on the ground, I have a good idea of attendance of all students, so I can determine attendance better than anyone, and hence grant entitlements.

We are not a business trying to turn a profit. We don't offer 'packages', if we can accommodate a person who is genuinely trying to get back into education and the workplace we will try and sort something out for them, as much as timetabling constraints will allow.

Tell that to any teacher who teaches IT in a school, if a computer breaks down in class, do you expect me to sit there and say to a student 'sorry you won't be able to participate for the rest of the day, i'm not going to fix your computer, which would only take me five minutes, i'm going to call out a technician instead'. Now you really are trolling. This is what happens in all schools in the real world whether the teacher is teaching PLC or otherwise.

I actually like my job believe it or not, I keep the principal up to date on stuff that he might not become aware of on a day to day basis. It astounds me that you come on here slagging off a teacher who actually does some work, when I consider the amount of threads on boards slagging off teachers as part of the 'lazy ineffective public service who want to do nothing and keep looking for pay rises'. Some of us do work and want to work and are not totally driven by money.


Again as I know more about PLC than the principal and have taught all of the computing type subjects we offer at one stage or another, it makes sense for me to sit down with a teacher who is teaching one of those subjects for the first time and explain how the system works, let them use what resources are available (hence keeping copies of briefs, exams etc) than the principal. If i was the new teacher I would prefer to get the heads up from an experienced teacher of the subject than from a principal who doesn't know an awful lot about the subject content or the dtails of assessment.

Anyway, namoosh, there is no talking to you, you will continually slag of the further education sector and anyone who works in it, so I'll bow out now.

implausible

namoosh wrote: »

The FETAC co ordinator co ordinates the presentation of work for the assessor. They don't run, plan or promote the courses, that is done by the teachers, most of whom regard FETAC as a pain in the ar*e, they are underpaid for FETAC work and most only complete it out of a sense of duty to their students, they are not contractually obliged to do it.

Most would get into an IT anyway.

You seem to be referring to the way things are run in a particular centre. From my knowledge of FETAC in a number of centres in my region, running, planning and promoting the courses is exactly the FETAC co-ordinator's job.

I have repeatedly said that many of my students would NOT get into the IT. For many of the younger students, our courses are plan B. We accept students with LCA, or those who may be missing an entry requirement like Maths etc.

You are contractually obliged to fulfill your teaching duties according to your timetable. If that includes FETAC, so be it.

namoosh wrote: »

Attendance is a function of the deputy principal/principal.

Grants are be dealt with by the VEC administrative offices.

Fixing computers is usually done by an IT technician, way cheaper than using teaching time to do it.

You must be teaching in an ideal school. Your points are very far from teaching reality.

In our centre, attendance is monitored by the course co-ordinators and reported to the VEC grants office. The attendance secretary and vice-principal only deal with mainstream attendance.

How many schools do you know who actually have an IT technician?! In my present VEC and the last one I worked in, there is one IT technician for the entire county!

namoosh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And you still have no idea how the system works! I'm astounded that you will persistently come on here to insult teachers about their jobs, when you don't know what the set up is in an individual school or centre, yet you're quite happy to make sweeping generalisations about the whole sector and everyone who works in it.

FYI: I have more experience of FETAC/PLC than anyone else in my school, including the principal. He has admitted this on several occasions. It would be easy to say leave it all to the principal, deputy principal, assistant principal, whoever you would care to nominate, one way or the other, the work wouldn't get done and me and other PLC teachers would still end up doing it.

We operate out of a separate building to the secondary school, so are you telling me that if I see a student out of class when they should be in class, I should spend my time ringing the principal telling him to sort it out, when i can speak to the student on the spot? Get real.

Grants are issued by cheque and are based on attendance. As I teach a large number of subjects and am basically the person on the ground, I have a good idea of attendance of all students, so I can determine attendance better than anyone, and hence grant entitlements.

We are not a business trying to turn a profit. We don't offer 'packages', if we can accommodate a person who is genuinely trying to get back into education and the workplace we will try and sort something out for them, as much as timetabling constraints will allow.

Tell that to any teacher who teaches IT in a school, if a computer breaks down in class, do you expect me to sit there and say to a student 'sorry you won't be able to participate for the rest of the day, i'm not going to fix your computer, which would only take me five minutes, i'm going to call out a technician instead'. Now you really are trolling. This is what happens in all schools in the real world whether the teacher is teaching PLC or otherwise.

I actually like my job believe it or not, I keep the principal up to date on stuff that he might not become aware of on a day to day basis. It astounds me that you come on here slagging off a teacher who actually does some work, when I consider the amount of threads on boards slagging off teachers as part of the 'lazy ineffective public service who want to do nothing and keep looking for pay rises'. Some of us do work and want to work and are not totally driven by money.


Again as I know more about PLC than the principal and have taught all of the computing type subjects we offer at one stage or another, it makes sense for me to sit down with a teacher who is teaching one of those subjects for the first time and explain how the system works, let them use what resources are available (hence keeping copies of briefs, exams etc) than the principal. If i was the new teacher I would prefer to get the heads up from an experienced teacher of the subject than from a principal who doesn't know an awful lot about the subject content or the dtails of assessment.

Anyway, namoosh, there is no talking to you, you will continually slag of the further education sector and anyone who works in it, so I'll bow out now.

I haven't insulted or criticised teachers, I have certainly criticised FETAC which operates on the goodwill of taechers.

As you admit in paragraph 2 if you didn't do the work the people in your centre who are very well paid to do it wouldn't.

The register notes attendance, if a student missed a part of the day it is noted in the register by a triangle, the registers should be examined weekly by the principal/deputy principal.

You don't have the authority to grant entitlements, its the principals job, based on the registers, I'm sure it suits him/her when you do it and take the abuse when someone is cut off.

I agree entirely. The system should accommodate a students needs but within the constraints of the course.

What happens the rest of the class when you are fixing the computer? The keyboard, monitor and mouse rarely give problems and are easy to replace, the base unit can be bought for around €300 or less. If the computers have adequate antivirus and anti spyware installed and the appropriate restrictions on adding or modifying software they should not give many problems. A few pre prepared base units should elimimate this problem. If you have a PC maintenance course they can fix the faulty units.

I am unfamiliar with the term trolling.

I have never 'slagged you off' I genuinely think that your principal is taking advantage of you and have merely voiced my opinion. It is his/her job to be aware of what is happening in their centre. No one teaching over the last few years is in it for the money, we could all have made far more working in the private sector during the celtic tiger.

It's the principals job to do that, certainly I would hope that the teachers in the area would assist but its his/her job to organise it

I can understand your get the job done approach but you need to step back and look what the senior management in your centre are paid to do. Why have all this pressure piled on your head?

namoosh

deemark wrote: »

You seem to be referring to the way things are run in a particular centre. From my knowledge of FETAC in a number of centres in my region, running, planning and promoting the courses is exactly the FETAC co-ordinator's job.

I have repeatedly said that many of my students would NOT get into the IT. For many of the younger students, our courses are plan B. We accept students with LCA, or those who may be missing an entry requirement like Maths etc.

You are contractually obliged to fulfill your teaching duties according to your timetable. If that includes FETAC, so be it.



You must be teaching in an ideal school. Your points are very far from teaching reality.

In our centre, attendance is monitored by the course co-ordinators and reported to the VEC grants office. The attendance secretary and vice-principal only deal with mainstream attendance.

How many schools do you know who actually have an IT technician?! In my present VEC and the last one I worked in, there is one IT technician for the entire county!

In my region the FETAC co ordinator is always an assistant principal. His/her duties are to ensure procedure is followed and the material is presented in the correct format for assessment and deal with any appeals.
Another assistant principal promotes the college and the courses. the courses are put together by the relevant department heads.

There is one IT technician in our region, he keeps the computers secure and up to date, he has a few spare base units on site if there is a problem, he monitors the centres remotely but will come in if there is a serious problem, which doesnt happen very often.

We are contractually bound to teach FETAC but not to assess it.

The marking of the register is the responsibility of the teacher, the monitoring of attendance is the responsibility of the principal/deputy principal, in department speak there is no Further Ed ergo all students are mainstream.

The students you refer to would I assume be looking for a job at the end of the course not a place on in an IT?

givyjoe81

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You don't know what the qualifications needed were but you would 'settle' for a job in a PLC college? As spurious said, they are mainly staffed by VEC staff, so you're looking at second level qualifications - the PGDE to become a business studies teacher. I started teaching PLC when I was 22, I've been running the centre since I was 26. I wasn't any less qualified then than the teachers that were older than me. You don't need a masters to teach at PLC level, but you sound like you're looking down on this girl because she was doing the same.

An MSc is also the minimum qualfication needed to get into an IT. It doesn't mean you'll get a job, experience comes into it too. One of my friends has a PhD and can't get a job at third level, she's still secondary teaching.

My reply is a long time coming as i didnt see much response when i posted originally. My god, i see the judgement mentality has found its way to this part of boards too. Christ you cant say anything here without people jumping down your throat.

Yes i did say i would settle for a job in a plc college, and i dont apologise for saying it. It is quite clearly not the top of the food chain as far as third level education goes and i wont apologise for calling a spade a spade. Its the same in any walk of life, people always want to work/play at the top of their chosen field/sport, understandable no? Hence i said i would settle for PLC colleges where the required qualifications would probably be lower, and work my way up from there, a fair piont of view i think.

And how i said i was looking down on this girl i dont know, enlighten me please? And yes i did say i didnt know what qualifications this girl had, which is why i posted the question! My friend had given me the impression that she was currently studying for her masters and that was it!

Im a former PLC student which is how the idea came to me. I enjoyed my time there, had some good and bad lecturers, just as i did throughout my undergrad and post grad education in IT's, but nobody can honestly tell me it is not a step down from IT's, Universities etc.

namoosh

givyjoe81 wrote: »

My reply is a long time coming as i didnt see much response when i posted originally. My god, i see the judgement mentality has found its way to this part of boards too. Christ you cant say anything here without people jumping down your throat.

Yes i did say i would settle for a job in a plc college, and i dont apologise for saying it. It is quite clearly not the top of the food chain as far as third level education goes and i wont apologise for calling a spade a spade. Its the same in any walk of life, people always want to work/play at the top of their chosen field/sport, understandable no? Hence i said i would settle for PLC colleges where the required qualifications would probably be lower, and work my way up from there, a fair piont of view i think.

And how i said i was looking down on this girl i dont know, enlighten me please? And yes i did say i didnt know what qualifications this girl had, which is why i posted the question! My friend had given me the impression that she was currently studying for her masters and that was it!

Im a former PLC student which is how the idea came to me. I enjoyed my time there, had some good and bad lecturers, just as i did throughout my undergrad and post grad education in IT's, but nobody can honestly tell me it is not a step down from IT's, Universities etc.

Its second level. You teach in a PLC/Further Ed you lecture in an IT & above. All you need is a degree in your chosen subject area or a degree in another area and a relevant qualification in the area you wish to teach. Have a look at the TUI/ASTI website, it will give you the payscales. Apply for everything that you feel is covered by the qualifications that you have. If you have any connections, teaching, local authority or political, use them! Best of luck!!

givyjoe81

namoosh wrote: »

Its second level. You teach in a PLC/Further Ed you lecture in an IT & above. All you need is a degree in your chosen subject area or a degree in another area and a relevant qualification in the area you wish to teach. Have a look at the TUI/ASTI website, it will give you the payscales. Apply for everything that you feel is covered by the qualifications that you have. If you have any connections, teaching, local authority or political, use them! Best of luck!!

Thanks for the advice! (and for not judging me along the way:pac:)