do you wish you had died for ireland

PrivateEye

Plus, loyalist paramilitaries are aligned with actual fascists, including hardcore NF offshoots

A few years back some BNP activists came over to meet up with Nordie Loyalists. They wanted a tour of East Belfast, and apparently the loyalist paramilitaries were making frantic phone calls to have the Israeli flags taken down from loyalist housing estates!

Dudess

Yeah, dumbfuks. They hang Israeli flags not because they give a sh1t about Israelis (and many of them are probably anti Semitic - Northern Ireland isn't exactly a haven of tolerance when it comes to anything, not just catholicism/protestantism) but just as a "**** you" to catholics who feel an empathy with Palestinians (very much understandable).

LOL at the idiotic inconsistency of the far right...

Kalashnikov_Kid

Plus, loyalist paramilitaries are aligned with actual fascists, including hardcore NF offshoots

And lets not forget the fact that certain loyalist paramilitary groups were funded by Apartheid South Africa during the 1980s

Dudess

Wow, seriously? Fascinating. I'm off to do a Google. Cheers for that.

Actually it's hard to find stuff. Have you more info on that, Kalashnikov_Kid?

Kalashnikov_Kid

Google 'ten thirty three' and get the book - all is revealed. It would go nicely alongside 'Bandit Country' as a more rounded view of the history of the Troubles

Kernel

Die for Ireland? Not likely. Dying for my family, for my values, for something worth fighting for is different. Ireland is just another nation, if the Chinese invaded and took over, and it didn't impact my way of life directly, then why would I bother dying for it?

What's with the rise of ill-conceived romantic Irish nationalism these days? Disillusionment with the globalist corporate capitalist system (understandable since it failed the people) and the emergence of the new world order of superstates eh? Perhaps we'll have our own Hitler or Franco soon!

jingx3

Kernel wrote: »

Die for Ireland? Not likely. Dying for my family, for my values, for something worth fighting for is different. Ireland is just another nation, if the Chinese invaded and took over, and it didn't impact my way of life directly, then why would I bother dying for it?

What's with the rise of ill-conceived romantic Irish nationalism these days? Disillusionment with the globalist corporate capitalist system (understandable since it failed the people) and the emergence of the new world order of superstates eh? Perhaps we'll have our own Hitler or Franco soon!

Why do you hate Ireland?

Kernel

Just to add something, isn't war just one poor brainwashed dumb bastard killing another poor brainwashed dumb bastard so that the status quo can remain? No, you may say, there is the question of ideology; yeah, but the other poor bastard believes his ideology is right to, and at the end of it all, where does it get us?

Dudess

Where did Kernel say (s)he hates Ireland?

PK2008

Couldnt we just join the actual Irish Army instead???

cos, like, they have way more guns and stuff

Kernel

jingx3 wrote: »

Why do you hate Ireland?

I don't hate Ireland, but I don't love Ireland and believe it is some sort of utopia that I should fight and die for, or kill anyone else for either. It's a piece of land that I've lived on since my ancient ancestors moved out of Africa. If things become to ****ty on this piece of land, sure I can move to another piece of land where I like things better.

weepee

Bono Vox wrote: »

Put it simple:

The IRA is the Irish Republican Army. Not the IRA you see today. They're dirty gangsters. Michael Collins and his men battled with the worst and scummiest country and took most of their counties back.

These are the people that fought for our rights we have today, and took down some dirty as*holes along with them!

This may come as a surprise, or maybe again not, but there is a direct link between the Republican Forces of the Civil War and the IRA, sorry, but thats the way it is.

FF has tried over the years to break that link, but it simply doesnt was.
Respectability is not achieved thru denial.

weepee

thelastditch wrote: »

I think Loyalist Paramilitaries felt they had no choice but to take the war to Irish Republicans and the community that supported them (mainly northern working class Catholics). In fact, if they hadn't done so, then The IRA campaign might well have continued. Obviously there will be those on here who say, "oh no, all that violence was terrible", and yes, they'd be right, it was terrible. But put yourself in the position of an Ulster British patriot who saw his country being torn apart in front of him by ruthless Republican fascists, littering the ground with the mutilated corpses of innocent men, women and children and ask yourself, what you would have done in their place?

Thank God the line held.

Lest we forget.

There was a guy two doors up from me, shot thru the chin when answering the door at a party in a friends house, luckily for him he was
dead before he hit the ground.

His neighbour, three doors up from me, was abducted by the Shankill
Butchers, when what was left of him was discovered and returned to
his family, his coffin was sealed.

I worked with a female friend years ago. She had the misfortune of hanging out with a Protestant friend of hers. While visiting him one night,
the front door was smashed open and in they came. She put her hands up
to protect herself, I guess she knew at that moment what was coming.

This bastard shot her with a shotgun, blowing off her forearms and head.

Ulster British Patriots, dont make me laugh.

weepee

Died for Ireland-very very few people below Newry even know what that term means.

Kernel

weepee wrote: »

There was a guy two doors up from me, shot thru the chin when answering the door at a party in a friends house, luckily for him he was
dead before he hit the ground.

His neighbour, three doors up from me, was abducted by the Shankill
Butchers, when what was left of him was discovered and returned to
his family, his coffin was sealed.

I worked with a female friend years ago. She had the misfortune of hanging out with a Protestant friend of hers. While visiting him one night,
the front door was smashed open and in they came. She put her hands up
to protect herself, I guess she knew at that moment what was coming.

This bastard shot her with a shotgun, blowing off her forearms and head.

Ulster British Patriots, dont make me laugh.

That's the ugly face of war my friend. When the Soviets advanced into Berlin, smashing the Third Reich, it is estimated that somewhere in the region of 100,000 women were raped by Soviet troops, many repeatedly and many resulting in suicide. When the Nazis invaded Poland, more Polish civilians were killed than soldiers. Pretty much the same all over, Japan and the rape of Nanking etc. etc. Read War of the World by Niall Ferguson for a good overview of human butchery throughout history.

When someone starts out with the misguided and romanticised intention (often through skillful propaganda techniques and political manipulation) of fighting and dying for 'their country' etc. it's the average family man trying to live life that suffers, and not much is achieved for that demographic.

PK2008

weepee wrote: »

Died for Ireland-very very few people below Newry even know what that term means.

......and how come you havent died for Ireland so?

weepee

Kernel wrote: »

That's the ugly face of war my friend. When the Soviets advanced into Berlin, smashing the Third Reich, it is estimated that somewhere in the region of 100,000 women were raped by Soviet troops, many repeatedly and many resulting in suicide. When the Nazis invaded Poland, more Polish civilians were killed than soldiers. Pretty much the same all over, Japan and the rape of Nanking etc. etc. Read War of the World by Niall Ferguson for a good overview of human butchery throughout history.

When someone starts out with the misguided and romanticised intention (often through skillful propaganda techniques and political manipulation) of fighting and dying for 'their country' etc. it's the average family man trying to live life that suffers, and not much is achieved for that demographic.

Yeah, the reason I was graphic was to hopefully deter anyone from such notions as 'Dying for Ireland', because there is no romantic side to it.

Just sadness, misery and hurt.

Dudess

weepee wrote: »

There was a guy two doors up from me, shot thru the chin when answering the door at a party in a friends house, luckily for him he was
dead before he hit the ground.

His neighbour, three doors up from me, was abducted by the Shankill
Butchers, when what was left of him was discovered and returned to
his family, his coffin was sealed.

I worked with a female friend years ago. She had the misfortune of hanging out with a Protestant friend of hers. While visiting him one night,
the front door was smashed open and in they came. She put her hands up
to protect herself, I guess she knew at that moment what was coming.

This bastard shot her with a shotgun, blowing off her forearms and head.

Ulster British Patriots, dont make me laugh.

Best not to let thelastditch upset you - it's what he wants.

weepee

Dudess wrote: »

Best not to let thelastditch upset you - it's what he wants.

Alas, it did upset me, I lived thru the worst of the worst of what Belfast had to offer, and wouldnt wish it upon anyone---ever.

dlofnep

Nobody wants to die for their country, but many will happily be ready to fight for it's defense. Would I fight to defend Ireland? Absolutely. I would have certainly had no qualms in fighting the Crown forces during the events that surrounded pre and post partition up until the GFA. After that - the political roadmap is for the best interests of Ireland. So long as the likes of Bloody Sunday don't happen again, we can work within that political roadmap.

weepee

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody wants to die for their country, but many will happily be ready to fight for it's defense. Would I fight to defend Ireland? Absolutely. I would have certainly had no qualms in fighting the Crown forces during the events that surrounded pre and post partition up until the GFA. After that - the political roadmap is for the best interests of Ireland. So long as the likes of Bloody Sunday don't happen again, we can work within that political roadmap.

Well thats fair enough, maybe Im just 'war weary' after all this time, and
glad my kids will grow up having missed it-hopefully.

weepee

PK2008 wrote: »

......and how come you havent died for Ireland so?

I did, I just came back to post here awhile.

dlofnep

weepee wrote: »

Well thats fair enough, maybe Im just 'war weary' after all this time, and
glad my kids will grow up having missed it-hopefully.

And you'd be right - War is not an enviable position.

walrusgumble

Fremen wrote: »

The IRA can go **** 'emselves.
Ghandi did it just fine.

true, ghandi did, but it did not hurt him and his people that they were a couple of hundred of miles away from mainland britian or that it was a colony (extremely valuable) as oppose to a core constitutional brick in the union of great britian and ireland or that britain was distracted elsewhere.

Kernel

weepee wrote: »

Yeah, the reason I was graphic was to hopefully deter anyone from such notions as 'Dying for Ireland', because there is no romantic side to it.

Just sadness, misery and hurt.

I knew your intention weepee, and I'm in full agreement with you. Anyone who has seen bloodshed and the suffering of families tends to have a different outlook. I've always been interested in history and war, and in my younger days wanted to pursue a professional military career. As you learn more about it all, and you mature you realise that war is an absolute abomination. A con job of the highest order that deliberately appeals to the basest instincts of the tractable masses in order to facilitate abominations such as murder of another person. Many of the people who rose to prominent positions on both sides of the troubles seem to me to have been social-deviant dysfunctionals who thrived under the then in place (unnatural?) system of barbarism.

If you want to go back to the rising times, those men who fought and died in the rising were trying to establish something better than they had. An improvement in their circumstances. The average paddy with a rifle in the GPO thought they would have more wages, less working hours etc. etc. They were fighting for themselves and their families, by and large. Swept up in Connolly's socialist ideas. Didn't happen afterwards though, the new boss was the same as the old boss, by and large - a bit gentler maybe, but a lot poorer .

I just wish that all the young and budding hunger strikers of tomorrow we have posting here would realise the glorious struggle equates to acts of blowing up children, or shooting mothers and fathers etc.. Die for Ireland? To paraphrase Full Metal Jacket; if I'm going to die for a word, my word is poontang. Here's an idea, instead of dying for your nation state, why not work to make it better. Live for Ireland / Ulster / Britain / Zimbabwe etc.

You can't put an old head on young shoulders I suppose!

dlofnep

thelastditch wrote: »

I think Loyalist Paramilitaries felt they had no choice but to take the war to Irish Republicans and the community that supported them (mainly northern working class Catholics). In fact, if they hadn't done so, then The IRA campaign might well have continued. Obviously there will be those on here who say, "oh no, all that violence was terrible", and yes, they'd be right, it was terrible. But put yourself in the position of an Ulster British patriot who saw his country being torn apart in front of him by ruthless Republican fascists, littering the ground with the mutilated corpses of innocent men, women and children and ask yourself, what you would have done in their place?

What's the word I'm looking for? Oh that's right, Font Size 7.

Bollox.

"British Ulster" - Or whatever you call your quasi-state these days was the same state that upheld civil inequality, collusion between crown forces and loyalist terrorists, gerrymandering and anything else you can possibly think of that exists in similar, faux-states.

Those Catholics were fighting for their very identity, civil rights, fair selection within the workplace, and against Loyalist mobs who burnt them out of their very homes. They were fighting against the undemocratic partition of their country. They were fighting against a deep-rooted foundation of sectarianism that had existed all the way back to the Penal Laws.

But the brilliant British Ulster Patriots (aka ****) - were fighting to uphold all this general wankery in the beautiful, but troublesome 6 counties. Still, always nice to see a bit of revisionism.

Panda Bear

Look at the stae of the country now and all the good men that died to make it an independent republic. It looks like the Developers and the bloody banks own the country now Fianna Fail has corrupted what those men died for and believed in. What this tells me is the same old story its all politics at the ned we end up fighting someone else's grudge or greed.:mad:

Dudess

dlofnep, don't give him the satisfaction. He posts hateful bigoted posts and the best way to deal with that is: ignore...

dlofnep

But I like font size 7. It's so rewarding. Besides, I can handle his revisionist overview on the troubles.

Famous45

One of the main questions you should ask yourself is, why should my country deserve my life?

No - I wouldn't like to die for Ireland if I died in an unjust war.

I would risk certain death if the safety and future of my loved ones were jeopardized, I would seek retribution on those who deserved it and in turn risk my life in doing so.

Dudess

dlofnep, he's actually a Northern loyalist I think though. It's twats from down here who go on with that sh1t that are far more infuriating.

Kernel

thelastditch wrote: »

I think Loyalist Paramilitaries felt they had no choice but to take the war to Irish Republicans and the community that supported them (mainly northern working class Catholics). In fact, if they hadn't done so, then The IRA campaign might well have continued. Obviously there will be those on here who say, "oh no, all that violence was terrible", and yes, they'd be right, it was terrible. But put yourself in the position of an Ulster British patriot who saw his country being torn apart in front of him by ruthless Republican fascists, littering the ground with the mutilated corpses of innocent men, women and children and ask yourself, what you would have done in their place?

Thank God the line held.

Lest we forget.

I understand your point of view, but it is the same deluded point of view of the nationalists. The nation state is dead, ulster, the republic etc. all irrelevant in the wider scheme of world globalist politics now. We're EU. European superstate bloc, which will merge in accordance with the real-politik future model of Kissinger and Brzezinski. We're a part of a global economy, an integrated system. All that violence was for nothing, and achieved nothing because in the future the name of a nation state will mean nothing.

thelastditch

Dudess wrote: »

Also, I love how the term "fascist" is so readily trotted out to describe the provos - yes, they were murdering bastards, but "fascism" has a specific meaning. It tends to get thrown out as just a synonym for "bad" or "awful" in this context.
Plus, loyalist paramilitaries are aligned with actual fascists, including hardcore NF offshoots - you must be so proud...

Fascism is more a way of conducting politics than a specific ideology Dudess - but I guess The Irish haven't worked that out yet.

thelastditch

PrivateEye wrote: »

A few years back some BNP activists came over to meet up with Nordie Loyalists. They wanted a tour of East Belfast, and apparently the loyalist paramilitaries were making frantic phone calls to have the Israeli flags taken down from loyalist housing estates!

That's a new story - I've never heard that one before.

The BNP supports Israel's right to exist.

thelastditch

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, dumbfuks. They hang Israeli flags not because they give a sh1t about Israelis (and many of them are probably anti Semitic - Northern Ireland isn't exactly a haven of tolerance when it comes to anything, not just catholicism/protestantism) but just as a "**** you" to catholics who feel an empathy with Palestinians (very much understandable).

LOL at the idiotic inconsistency of the far right...

Oh you're such a laugh Dudess. Isn't it funny that the father's and grandfather's of BNP activists (and some members themselves) fought Nazi Germany, whilst Irish scum were helping The Fuhrer?

What's it like to be Irish eh? Some country...

:rolleyes:

dlofnep

thelastditch wrote: »

That's a new story - I've never heard that one before.

The BNP supports Israel's right to exist.

Nick Griffin is an anti-semite. This new found tolerance of Israel is really only from a strategic voting stand-point, and not from a belief standpoint.

On the holocaust he stated: "I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that 6m Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into soup and lampshades... I have reached the conclusion that the "extermination" tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria."

dlofnep

thelastditch wrote: »

Isn't it funny that the father's and grandfather's of BNP activists (and some members themselves) fought Nazi Germany, whilst Irish scum were helping The Fuhrer?

You obviously missed the well documented part of history that saw 1000's of Irish men fighting alongside British men against Nazi Germany.

Would you vote for the BNP by any chance? Genuinely curious.

Dudess

Well he certainly hasn't denied any accusations of bigotry.

dlofnep wrote: »

Nick Griffin is an anti-semite. This new found tolerance of Israel is really only from a strategic voting stand-point, and not from a belief standpoint.

Yeah, it really does make me piss myself.

And the American christian right's embracing of those wonderful "Sons of Jacob" is awesome also - morons. :pac:

K-9

I truely admire the hunger strikers, 10 brave men and I sympathise with hard line Republicans who wonder what it was all for. Times have moved on from then though.

On Michael Collins, loved the scene in the film involving the shop owner and think it was a mother owing a debt, being decided on by IRA courts. Connolly would have been turning in his grave.

Kalashnikov_Kid

What's it like to be Irish eh? Some country...

Whats it like to be a supporter of the British Army i.e. the largest terrorist network in modern history - raping women and collecting chopped hands in a basket in the name of the Crown...some glory there.

Would you like to remind me who invented the concept of the concentration camp? I'll give you a clue - it wasn't the Nazis....

But I have a distinct impression that you probably werent taught any of that when growing up.

K-9

Wonder what Gerry McCabes widow thinks of the question?

Dudess

That person, thelastditch, has resorted to the "a few Irish people did xyz so let's blame all the Irish and condemn the entire country of Ireland". When people are reduced to using such an "intelligent" arguing "tactic" they tend not to be worth engaging with.
He also keeps making anti Irish jibes so he's definitely just trying to rile people - bless.

Anyhoo, the concentration camp is the brainwave of Earl Kitchener - he was from north Kerry! (But English).

Kalashnikov_Kid

I know its a windup but its still good fun to test their crap A* education system

PK2008

The loyalists hate the republicans, the republicans hate the loyalists

Ok people, we get it already- its been done a thousand times, and each time it made less difference than the last

thomond2006

For anyone that has not been to Northern Ireland, there are only a few differences:

1. Sterling instead of euro.
2. Miles instead of kilometres.
3. Red Royal Mails vans.
4. Red Post Boxes.
5. No Irish on Road Signs.
6. Alcohol is much cheaper.

There are no army checkpoints and no signs with "You are now entering Northern Ireland".

The troubles are over, anyone fighting on really needs to buy a few brain cells somewhere.

jingx3

That's racist.

Kalashnikov_Kid

thomond2006 wrote: »

For anyone that has not been to Northern Ireland, there are only a few differences:

1. Sterling instead of euro.
2. Miles instead of kilometres.
3. Red Royal Mails vans.
4. Red Post Boxes.
5. No Irish on Road Signs.
6. Alcohol is much cheaper.

There are no army checkpoints and no signs with "You are now entering Northern Ireland".

The troubles are over, anyone fighting on really needs to buy a few brain cells somewhere.

You forgot Sainsburys and IKEA :rolleyes:

I agree with you with the troubles being over, but there's alot more differences than above!

thomond2006

jingx3 wrote: »

That's racist.

Explain why, if you don't mind.

stovelid

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

But I have a distinct impression that you probably werent taught any of that when growing up.

I think it's possible to reject republican militarism as an Irishman or woman. Even to call them criminal in some respects. As citizens of this country, we have the right to criticize acts committed in our name. And to question orthodox interpretations of history without being labelled as unpatriotic.

That doesn't mean that we forget or excuse war-crimes committed by the British and their agents. Even if you grit your teeth and accept that lasting peace probably means accommodation of theiir views and aims.

Personally, I detest the IRA but I fucking loathe Loyalism and most of what passed for British 'policy' in the North, including murder.

punk_one82

Would I have fought and died for the IRA of the Michael Collins era? Yes, more than likely. Would I have fought and died for the IRA of the past 30/40 years or whatever it's been? Probably not, but maybe my I would have felt differently if I had have lived in the North at the time. Foreign occupation and constant violence can quite clearly drive people to do things they would usually find unacceptable. Who really knows?