do you wish you had died for ireland

Terrontress

Dudess wrote: »

Yawn. Anyone can manipulate stats to suit themselves. It's not just a question of numbers, and you know it. And also, you've only mentioned loyalists - what about the arms of the British state whom they colluded with?

How do you suppose this collusion was able to manifest itself?

The death threats given to people from Catholic communities who joined the RUC or UDR? The ostracisiation of them and their family.

I know it is a bit chicken and egg but the lack of representation of Catholics and Nationalists in the NI Security Forces has a hell of a lot to do with militant Republicans and the whole issue of collusion has to be viewed in that context.

Dudess

Not defending IRA intimidation tactics at all, but frankly, I could understand civilian catholics feeling betrayed by members of their community joining the RUC, and absolutely angered by them joining the UDR. And it has been documented that the tiny few catholic members who did join were given nothing but **** by their colleagues.

Terrontress

Dudess wrote: »

Not defending IRA intimidation tactics at all, but frankly, I could understand civilian catholics feeling betrayed by members of their community joining the RUC, and absolutely angered by them joining the UDR. And it has been documented that the tiny few catholic members who did join were given nothing but **** by their colleagues.

As I understand it, a lot of Catholics in the UDR were forced to leave by the IRA. Also, I believe of the 10% of the RUC which were Catholic, many of them excelled, Desmond Conroy being one, which would be at odds with what you say. I would however read any examples of people being given **** by colleagues if you could provide some.

The truth is that the reason why the security forces were unrepresentative was due to intimidation of potential Catholic members. A prospective member from certain areas may be able to look after himself but what about when his parents are burnt out?

This even went as far as the GAA expelling members for joining the police.

You can't talk about collusion or lack of representation as being the sole responsibility of any one group, body or movement.

dlofnep

Terrontress wrote: »

The truth is that the reason why the security forces were unrepresentative was due to intimidation of potential Catholic members.

Or, it might have something to do with the fact that those said security forces colluded with loyalists and murdered civilians? Are we conveniently overlooking this dangerously important point?

The truth is - Catholics had no faith in the said forces.

mirrorman

In All Fairness wrote: »

Not the IRA's fault that the UVF can't shoot for **** or hit a target even with access to British Intel. But I suppose that's what happens when you send a bunch of drugdealers to do a soldier's job.

I see. So all the garbage Nationalists spew out about The UK Armed Forces training Loyalist paramilitaries must be so much hot air then? Because as any independent analyst will tell you The UK Army is pound for pound the best in the world and if they had trained Loyalists to kill Irish Nationalists I doubt they'd have missed many targets. Oh, and in case you're thinking all Loyalists were drug dealers, I suggest you do a little research my Irish 'friend' - many proto-Loyalist paramilitaries were ex-British Army including Gusty Spence. He obviously didn't miss.

demac71

i cant feel the love in this thread lads

mirrorman

Dudess wrote: »

Nice. Oh and in keeping with your "loyalist paramilitaries only carried out their atrocities because of the IRA" approach, Enniskillen wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for many members of the unionist community discriminating against/harassing catholics.

Oh I see, so if you're discriminated against you're entitled to blow up a lot of old people and the odd nurse? Mask slipping dear?

Yes, Griffin's views on Jews - and the BNP, a far-right party... these have no bearing on each other whatsoever. :rolleyes:

As I've already said The BNP supports Israel's right to exist - unlike some on this forum who obviously don't.

The BNP has even had a Jewish councillor.

Perhaps you should do a little more research before opening your mouth?

There are of course Irish Nationalists who hate Jews, here's some for you:

http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/

Enjoy!

dlofnep

mirrorman wrote: »

So all the garbage Nationalists spew out about The UK Armed Forces training Loyalist paramilitaries must be so much hot air then?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2955941.stm

No.

dlofnep

mirrorman wrote: »

As I've already said The BNP supports Israel's right to exist - unlike some on this forum who obviously don't.

And as we've said, it's leader denied the Hollocaust.

mirrorman wrote: »

The BNP has even had a Jewish councillor.

How brilliant. Although, I don't think it has many Jewish members within it's ranks when it's leader denies the Hollocaust.

Now, off you go back to CaltonRadio or Pulse, or whatever it is you call that hate-filled, bigot-playground these days.

Dudess

mirrorman wrote: »

Oh I see, so if you're discriminated against you're entitled to blow up a lot of old people and the odd nurse? Mask slipping dear?

Oh I don't recall saying that anywhere. What I said was it caused the more militant, less pacifist victims of it to take up arms - a logical development really, even if I don't agree with violence.
Why? Are you saying loyalist paramilitaries were "entitled" to commit their acts of savagery?

As I've already said The BNP supports Israel's right to exist - unlike some on this forum who obviously don't.

The BNP has even had a Jewish councillor.

Yep, it's all very handy seeing as the BNP has an anti muslim agenda - but you can be sure it's still comprised of a significant anti semitic contingent, which includes its leader. Awesome.
I support Israel's right to exist - I object to its treatment of Palestinians.

Perhaps you should do a little more research before opening your mouth?

Perhaps you should be a bit more balanced instead of coming across like a racist?

There are of course Irish Nationalists who hate Jews

Of course there are - never said there weren't. Unfortunately the Arab-Israeli conflict is leading to anti Semitism, which is very sad.

By the way, seeing your posting going from snide and smug, with all those nasty little anti Irish jibes, to indignant and angry is... sweet.

Sharpshooter

mirrorman wrote: »

I see. So all the garbage Nationalists spew out about The UK Armed Forces training Loyalist paramilitaries must be so much hot air then? Because as any independent analyst will tell you The UK Army is pound for pound the best in the world and if they had trained Loyalists to kill Irish Nationalists I doubt they'd have missed many targets. Oh, and in case you're thinking all Loyalists were drug dealers, I suggest you do a little research my Irish 'friend' - many proto-Loyalist paramilitaries were ex-British Army including Gusty Spence. He obviously didn't miss.

Banned again.

K-9

Great PR for loyalism!

Hagar

asdasd wrote: »

Jeez, there is another thing that has been written out of history. The British Embassy was attacked by right-on southsiders.

No it wasn't. It was attacked by an outraged Irish people, not the IRA or any other organization, just ordinary angry people from all walks of life. I know, I was there.

PrivateEye

So all the garbage Nationalists spew out about The UK Armed Forces training Loyalist paramilitaries must be so much hot air then?

If you read the book 'Brits' by Peter Taylor (A British journalist. He did three in the series 'Provos,Brits and Loyalists') it becomes clear sections of the states defence forces were very sympathetic to loyalist paramilitaries. What do you consider the UK Armed Forces, does it extend to the RUC and the UDR? If so, collusion is undeniable. I'd argue collusion existed too between the UK intelligence agencies and loyalist paramilitaries. All these are parts of the same state apparatus, and that state willingly turned a blind eye on many many occasions.

Oh, and in case you're thinking all Loyalists were drug dealers

If you seriously are unaware of the involvement of loyalist paramilitaries on two dodgey fronts (The first being drugs, where the facts are undeniable and very clear and the second the xenophobic far right 'movement' that has emerged in recent times in the form of the Romanian attacks, the Milltown 'C18' stuff and threats against various Chinese and Middle Eastern families) you need to research the loyalist 'movement' a bit more. Its nothing but a ragbag of thugs. Senior members of the LVF have found themselves off to the morgue for selling drugs and all.

irishpriest

Dudess wrote: »

Not defending IRA intimidation tactics at all, but frankly, I could understand civilian catholics feeling betrayed by members of their community joining the RUC, and absolutely angered by them joining the UDR. And it has been documented that the tiny few catholic members who did join were given nothing but **** by their colleagues.

Catholics made up approximately 10% of RUC numbers throughout the troubles despite the extra difficulties they faced living in Catholic areas full of Republicans keen to murder them. In fact when Northern Ireland was formed a third of The RUC places were held open for Roman Catholics.

As regards The UDR, when it was formed Catholics flocked to it, initially making up 17% of the numbers. Unfortunately these Catholics too were faced with murder by The IRA in the areas in which they lived. Amazing as it might seem, Catholics still made up 3% of UDR membership right up to the end. Some of the bravest men in Ulster. They faced few problems from their Protestant comrades, so I'd like you to produce the documentation that says otherwise. Or is this just another one of your fairy tales?

irishpriest

dlofnep wrote: »

Or, it might have something to do with the fact that those said security forces colluded with loyalists and murdered civilians? Are we conveniently overlooking this dangerously important point?

The truth is - Catholics had no faith in the said forces.

Then why did so many of them join The UDR and RUC (and indeed The British Army)?

PrivateEye

^ Willie Frazer on boards?

irishpriest

K-9 wrote: »

Great PR for loyalism!

Thanks mate - I do my best, even if the opposition is so poor...:D

Sharpshooter

irishpriest wrote: »

Catholics made up approximately 10% of RUC numbers throughout the troubles despite the extra difficulties they faced living in Catholic areas full of Republicans keen to murder them. In fact when Northern Ireland was formed a third of The RUC places were held open for Roman Catholics.

As regards The UDR, when it was formed Catholics flocked to it, initially making up 17% of the numbers. Unfortunately these Catholics too were faced with murder by The IRA in the areas in which they lived. Amazing as it might seem, Catholics still made up 3% of UDR membership right up to the end. Some of the bravest men in Ulster. They faced few problems from their Protestant comrades, so I'd like you to produce the documentation that says otherwise. Or is this just another one of your fairy tales?

Banned yet again.

I'm locking this as it seems to be a magnet for the same troll.