Would you emigrate???

My name is URL

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Answer me: why is that someone who criticises Ireland IS AUTOMATICALLY "filled with resentment". I don't have resetnment. Where did you read resentment? Check out my first post in this thread. I hate the "if you don't like it **** off" mentality that implies Ireland is perfect and there's something wrong with people who don't like it. Calling them "tits" is hardly constructive. And then you follow it up with "why are skilled people ****ing off?"
BECAUSE YOU TOLD THEM TO.

I came to Berlin to further my career. I'm a visual artist and I do bodypainting. It's much easier to find models heer and it's a much more createive city. It was more a case of "I came to Berlin" than "I left Dublin".

In the thread so far there's arguments about what size houses are ffs, that's not even an issue..

Eh.... what?

• I wasn't referring to you individually when I mentioned resentment. Many have shown it in this thread
  
• I don't see how that implies Ireland is perfect, it merely implies my discord for people who assume Ireland is shit
  
• Come on now, they're leaving because I told them to? They're leaving because Ireland doesn't suit they're obscured vision of fulfillment. That doesn't make Ireland a terrible place. It makes them tits though, when they ridicule the country because of it
  
• Fair enough, so you have nothing against Ireland then?
  
• Well... read the thread

procure11

My name is URL wrote: »

• I wasn't referring to you individually when I mentioned resentment. Many have shown it in this thread
• I don't see how that implies Ireland is perfect, it merely implies my discord for people who assume Ireland is shit
• Come on now, they're leaving because I told them to? They're leaving because Ireland doesn't suit they're obscured vision of fulfillment. That doesn't make Ireland a terrible place. It makes them tits though, when they ridicule the country because of it
• Fair enough, so you have nothing against Ireland then?
• Well... read the thread

Very blurry...I have a effeing headache already...Gosh

[Jackass]

Going to Canada on 28th December and dont plan on ever returning.

DanGerMus

Where ever you go, there you are. Ya moany ****es.

STBR

[Jackass] wrote: »

Going to Canada on 28th December and dont plan on ever returning.

*Hi5*

JONJO THE MISER

[Jackass] wrote: »

Going to Canada on 28th December and dont plan on ever returning.

Where in Canada you heading too?

OneArt

Whatever they say about a global recession, at this stage I'd much rather be living in somewhere like Germany in a recession than Ireland.

I'm hoping to emigrate straight after college. Even if there weren't a recession I'd be gone once college was finished, I'm just the kind of person who can't hack living in one place for too long!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

My name is URL wrote: »

• I wasn't referring to you individually when I mentioned resentment. Many have shown it in this thread
  
• I don't see how that implies Ireland is perfect, it merely implies my discord for people who assume Ireland is shit
  
• Come on now, they're leaving because I told them to? They're leaving because Ireland doesn't suit they're obscured vision of fulfillment. That doesn't make Ireland a terrible place. It makes them tits though, when they ridicule the country because of it
  
• Fair enough, so you have nothing against Ireland then?
  
• Well... read the thread

In order:
1 - Fair enough; just wanted to make it clear.
2 - My first post refered to the fact that I don't resent Ireland.
3 - They're leaving because they aren't fulfilled. How do you know that they're vision of fulfillment is "obscurred"? You're attitude of "**** off" and then wondering why they **** off is hardly causing a rethink.
4 - It could be so much more. It has the potential to be one of the best places on the planet, but no one seems to want to realise the potential. But we tolerate shoddy organisation and encourage mediocrity.
5 - I have read the tread. I don't see the connection with grounded teenagers or the point in calling people who want to leave "tits".

procure11

[Jackass] wrote: »

Going to Canada on 28th December and dont plan on ever returning.

Fairplay to you and others who are thinking of emmigrating...that is your choice and I dont think anyone has any right to judge you because of your decision.

Saying that though...I am completely bewildered when I listen to some petty reasons for emmigrating,folks have to realise that

>This is not 1950 when there would have been considerable difference in opportunities/lifestyle/standard of living ,so essentially apart from advanced landmark/structures..most of those countries that are top on the list (eg US,Canada,Australia,Britain) would only offer slightly ,even sometimes negligible better opportunities.

>Most of the reasons can be attributed to the recession/economic constraints at the minute...but it is the same everywhere.It is a fact that Canada and to some extent Australia have not been hit as hard as say perharps the USA or Ireland but it is also true that they are not flowing with milk and honey either...they are going to be speculative and create less jobs/investments/projects etc till they see a global recovery and make the jobs available to their own citizens.

Lastly I personally think Ireland is a lovely country...yes it has its political/social/infrastructural challenges...but guess what..so does every nation on planet earth.If some of us can actually open our eyes and ears wide enough..we would discover that for all the problems/challenges that are noticeable..similar opportunities abound as well.

Sorry for the lengthy post..I just needed to get it off my chest...seeing a lot of posters putting the country down.

My name is URL

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In order:
1 - Fair enough; just wanted to make it clear.
2 - My first post refered to the fact that I don't resent Ireland.
3 - They're leaving because they aren't fulfilled. How do you know that they're vision of fulfillment is "obscurred"? You're attitude of "**** off" and then wondering why they **** off is hardly causing a rethink.
4 - It could be so much more. It has the potential to be one of the best places on the planet, but no one seems to want to realise the potential. But we tolerate shoddy organisation and encourage mediocrity.
5 - I have read the tread. I don't see the connection with grounded teenagers or the point in calling people who want to leave "tits".

Fulfillment is what people make of it. For me it's having a job, a house and enough money to get by doing what I want to do. I wonder why they want to fcuk off, the fact they do want to fcuk off makes me think they're tits, and if they want out that much I'd rather see them go than stay, it's just my opinion

It only has the potential if people don't up sticks and leave, giving up on discouraging shoddy organisation and mediocrity

The teen running away from home is imo a good euphemism for what's happening, people see leaving to be an easier option than standing by their objections and trying to better the situation

My name is URL

Fresh data on best paid cities -

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/21/europe-best-paid-lifestyle-real-estate-cities-economy.html

Top Ten

1. Zurich
2. Geneva
3. Dublin
4. Luxembourg
5. Copenhagen
6. Oslo
7. Helsinki
8. Munich
9. Frankfurt
10. Brussels

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

My name is URL wrote: »

Fulfillment is what people make of it. For me it's having a job, a house and enough money to get by doing what I want to do. I wonder why they want to fcuk off, the fact they do want to fcuk off makes me think they're tits, and if they want out that much I'd rather see them go than stay, it's just my opinion

For you, yes. For someone else it could well be something else. For me it is something else. For you to assume that mine or someone else's vision of fulfillment is "obscurred" is extremly arrogant.

It only has the potential if people don't up sticks and leave, giving up on discouraging shoddy organisation and mediocrity

This is a fair point. The thing here is that too many people who stay accept the mediocrity. There comes a point when you realise you're banging your head against a brick wall and that, no matter how bad things get, people don't want change. It's like trying to help the alcoholic who doesn't think he's an alcoholic in the first place.

The teen running away from home is imo a good euphemism for what's happening, people see leaving to be an easier option than standing by their objections and trying to better the situation

No it isn't, because it implies that it's done out of impetuousness and impulse and wihout any forethought or research. Which is not the case with emigration.

My name is URL

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

For you, yes. For someone else it could well be something else. For me it is something else. For you to assume that mine or someone else's vision of fulfillment is "obscurred" is extremly arrogant.

Well as far as state provisions go, I am, and other people should, feel fulfilled. For you it's an artistic outlet etc that you need?, and the state cannot fulfill that because it's an aspect built by public personality. Having artists leaving the country won't change or help that though.

This is a fair point. The thing here is that too many people who stay accept the mediocrity. There comes a point when you realise you're banging your head against a brick wall and that, no matter how bad things get, people don't want change. It's like trying to help the alcoholic who doesn't think he's an alcoholic in the first place.

A majority of those who stay are oblivious to any problems (like an alcoholic), and are happy to be a sheep to anything that's going on. It doesn't mean we all are, and it doesn't mean that leaving is a better option.

No it isn't, because it implies that it's done out of impetuousness and impulse and wihout any forethought or research. Which is not the case with emigration.

It's better to bare the brunt of a problem than to avoid it altogether, because avoiding a problem is also avoiding a solution

IvySlayer

If you want to experience what it's like to live in another country, that's fine. In fact I want to do it.

I'm just sick of people leaving because they think Ireland is a ****hole, when it really isn't.

IvySlayer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If you compare Ireland to a third world country, yes.
If you compare Ireland to a modern European country, no. (Well, apart from Italy)
Consider the health system comment signapped. Then ask Biggles how he feels about it.

I agree it's not perfect, no-one can deny that. I can name a handful of countries which have better health systems.

That's nice, you pick one example. How many lives does the HSE save every day? Because of one cut it's automatically a shambles?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

IvySlayer wrote: »

I agree it's not perfect, no-one can deny that. I can name a handful of countries which have better health systems.

That's nice, you pick one example. How many lives does the HSE save every day? Because of one cut it's automatically a shambles?

Off topic, but ok: Not so much "one cut" by the actual nature of the cut. Also, there's plenty of others around the country. And it is well short of what I would expect of a modern first world country, but I never said it was "a shambles".

IvySlayer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Off topic, but ok: Not so much "one cut" by the actual nature of the cut. Also, there's plenty of others around the country. And it is well short of what I would expect of a modern first world country, but I never said it was "a shambles".

But you cannot say it's a bad system. In need of more money? Yes. In need of a new Minister? Yes. In need of more beds? Yes.

I'd rather be in Ireland for medical treatment than US for example and probably more countries than others. Although Obama's proposal for change may make me reconsider.

Let's agree to disagree, it's not brilliant, but it's not bad.

blow69

My name is URL wrote: »

Doing it for experience is fair enough Jonjo, I lived in the US myself for 2 years for that reason, it helped me grow up a bit

But I always loved Ireland while I was there and I was always homesick.. I don't see why people hate this country so much, it's very sad really. We have had better opportunities than most, even if we don't always take advantage of them.

Excuse me, but did you not say unless there is war, famine or severe unemployment, you must be selfish to emigrate? However when someone who more or less has agreed with you on every point does it for experience you give him an out.


And comparing it to a runaway teenager is quite frankly, idiotic. God forbid someone should want to see the world. Why is it that we have to stay in Ireland just because we were born here?!

BS.

Ickle Magoo

Raiser wrote: »

- I'd be interested to hear from any of you that have considered it, are going or have gone!!!

I know three couple that have already left, we're currently awaiting news on an interview & if it's good, we'll be flitting too. :cool:

Ickle Magoo

My name is URL wrote: »

Fresh data on best paid cities -

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/21/europe-best-paid-lifestyle-real-estate-cities-economy.html

Top Ten

1. Zurich
2. Geneva
3. Dublin
4. Luxembourg
5. Copenhagen
6. Oslo
7. Helsinki
8. Munich
9. Frankfurt
10. Brussels

In fairness, it doesn't matter if Dublin ranks number one in offering high pay if you are one of the thousands that don't have a job, also average pay is not an indication of standard of living in a country - and does it mean that those outside of Dublin have good reason to leave? :P

wildeside

- I'd be interested to hear from any of you that have considered it, are going or have gone!!![/quote]

I having been living in London for the last 7 years and recently started 'thinking' about moving back to Ireland (once the worst of the recession is over). I thought I'd browse around boards.ie to get a 'feel' for Ireland again and see what's what and hope that I might get an idea if moving back would be a good idea or not. And then I saw this post ... Forgive the ensuing rant but I have to get some things off my chest !

I have to say having lived in London for that last 7 years the thought of moving back to Ireland is a scary prospect, not least because of the reasons I left. I just couldn't help thinking that I lived in a backward thinking, morally conservative xenaphobic country with little to offer culturally except getting f**ked in pubs every weekend and talkin' s**te till it was literally coming out me arse.

Not just that, Ireland is a country that has been decimated by the Catholic church and why for the life of me, considering the recent report into the abuse perpetrated by our moral leaders, the entire country hasn't told that entire institution to f**k right off permanently fills me with enormous anger and sadness. The Catholic church ruined the Irish people, tried for hundreds of years to knock the fun out of them (with great success) until we discovered "the drink", desperate to escape the terrible oppression of our organised religion and the 'moral' preachings of our dear leaders. The church ruined our souls it didn't save them.

But despite all that people still call themselves Catholics. People's claim to faith in Ireland is the worst kind of hypocritical farce I can imagine, it's a nation full of BDM (Births-Deaths-Marriages) Catholics that haven't the spine or guts to say "No, I don't believe" and live their lives accordingly. No we wouldn't want to offend or upset would we. No, no, no, just shut up and fit in and never speak your mind. Don't cause a scene, just sit down and be quiet, good lads.

And how is it that the church still runs the schools? If people can't see what's wrong with that then there's no point even discussing it.

Speaking of backward institutions, RTE. Oh my god, lads, it really is a terrible joke, it's so embarrassing. I've seen TV to a large degree in 13 different countries (due to a lot of travelling with work) and every time I'm home and turn on RTE it makes me want to cry. RTE programming has all the creative integrity, cultural significance and intelligence of Italian Stripping Housewives. I don't know how anyone can have any pride working in that institution. And "The Angelas" at 6pm ? Really, c'mon. How pathetic. And you may think RTE is of no real importance but like the church it is an institution which helps shapes the minds of a nation. It has a duty to entertain, inform and to challenge it's people, not serve up the same old crap and keep the status-quo. It's another bad joke.

Did I mention politics? Unmercifully and unapologetically corrupt to its core. Cute-hoorism abounds with nare a soul brave enough to demand better (except for the odd inner-city dublin politician here or there). A democracy completely co-opted by the cosy relationships with big business (men). Oh sure, "other countries are worse" but that is a defence of sorts usually espoused by idiots. It's not good enough. We go on about being proud to be Irish, 1916 an' all that jingoistic jazz but think about this, what do you think those fine men who made the ultimate sacrifice for our nation would say about our current breed of political leaders and about our, the people's, acquiescence. Happy to just let them get on with it. Protest? March? Go on the streets like they do in France? No, not the docile old Irish, wouldn't want to upset anyone now would we? We're far too nice for that kind of thing. We, like the people who took back our nation need to grow a pair of b**ls and stop being a bunch of pu**ies and cowards desperately afraid of what other people might think of us.

So apart from those 3 major institutions holding our country back what else irks me? Apart from the Celtic Tiger virus that many people caught, not a lot really. Radio is crap (U2 is played way too much, come on sing a different tune for gods sake), weather's not great and unfortunately compared to a city like London bugger all happens (open air theatre/concerts/beer festivals with the Irish weather, always a huge risk for potential organisers). Oh and being racist is stil considered to be just a bit of a laugh (if any English-man tried any thick-mick, tar-mac me driveway "jokes" with me he knows what he'd get). It's not funny like being jokey about the gassing of the Jews isn't funny.

So why am I thinking of moving back from one of the worlds most exciting, liberal, forward thinking capital cities with more to offer than I can ever hope to fit in? Different reasons, but I suppose it's because it is home, it's where I'm from and I'm stubborn. I left out of frustration with the place but I don't want to give up on it and say "to hell with it". If everyone of a progressive mindset leaves then the country is surely doomed.

But I still can't shake the feeling that it'll be a long time before any real progress is made and we shake the moral conservatism off us that has held us back as a nation for so long.

asdasd

What a dull formulaic rant.

Ickle Magoo

Any yet it contains so many of the reasons cited by those who are leaving...

wildeside

asdasd wrote: »

What a dull formulaic rant.

Cheers, glad you liked it !

population

There are things I like about Ireland, but it is just not enough to keep me here. The country is headed for a shocking run of it for the next ten years and frankly I dont intend to be around for it. Have an Australian passport and I am gonna use it. There are things about Australia I dont like aswell but overall the standard of living is better. I am in my early 30's and myself and the missus are considering kids and I just think they have more opportunities there than here.

Oh and contrary to what alot of people have said, yes Australia has had a recession but it is NOTHING compared to what we are having and will continue to have for a long time

asdasd

Cheers, glad you liked it !

No, it was ****. The catholic church did not control Ireland for centuries, it was never the Established church. it was banned. read some history. Ireland politicans are less corrupt than the UK ( read the expenses scandal you - do - live in England). and the UK where you left Ireland for - has an Established Church, a tiny minority of well educated people from two secondary schools; and morons with comprehensive educations ( most English people I know would like the Irish system), a feudalist monarch, an unelected upper chamber, state employed bishops etc..


i would not change any of that - even though it is ludicrous - because it is central to their identity.
So I am not sure what you thought you were getting into. Why flee a supposedly Catholic run society ( hint: it is not the 50's) to a country with an Established church.

Answer: neither matters. People conserve stuff - like a l carte Catholicism, or Anglicanism - as a form of identity. It is particular sleeveenism, though, to note the problems in Ireland, and not noting the peculiar system in the UK. If we had their system, and the UK was a Republic with a constitution and no Established Chruch we would be just so terribly embarrassed.

So typical "progressive ****". I like the part of England I am in partly because it is traditional, and I like traditional stuff anywhere. The "multicultural" shtie can happen anywhere, and increasingly it does happen anywhere. And Londoners are far less enthused about their multi-cultural paradise than outsiders like yourself.

Meanwhile, Ireland;s laws are about as progressive as anywhere - with the excpetion of abortion - and still the "progressive" whine continues: abandon all identity, croppies lie down, make the entire world a secular republic of utter dullness.

Ickle Magoo

Yes, Bertie with his suitcases full of money under the bed is much less corrupt than MPs legally flipping housing expenses. :rolleyes:

asdasd

yeah. He got money from someone to buy a house. The illegality ( which has not been tested in court) was a tax fraud. In the UK he would've been housed by the State.

The money was less than many of the expense claims in the UK where MPs clearly lied about what house they actually lived in , and thus defrauded the tax payer of similar amounts to Bertie, some more. Over longer periods of time.

Mandelson, for instance, did exactly what Bertie did. Someone gave him a house and he didnt declare it, even though Mandelson's department was investigating the guy at the time. He is back. Bertie's gone. Outside of Ireland nobody is really paying much attention to the Bertie Ahearn may not have declared his taxes when he was homeless while finance minister - it is not really up to Berlescunis level.

Purple Gorilla

Ugh..can't wait till this older generation of bitter people just dies off so my generation can take over. At least we seem to appreciate the positive aspects of the country and are proud of what we are. Sure we know we're not the best, but we're not the worst. And we know how lucky we are to have the luxuries that we have now. Even the D4 airheads understand how far Ireland's come.

I'm not against people emigrating..I know I'd love to go around the world and I'd love to maybe study in the US for a year when I go to college, but I'm pissed off the the seemingly manic depressive generation ahead of me who see Ireland as some Zimbabwe-like state.

In All Fairness

asdasd wrote: »

What a dull formulaic rant.

What a dull formulaic riposte.

wildeside

asdasd wrote: »

No, it was ****. The catholic church did not control Ireland for centuries, it was never the Established church. it was banned. read some history. Ireland politicans are less corrupt than the UK ( read the expenses scandal you - do - live in England). and the UK where you left Ireland for - has an Established Church, a tiny minority of well educated people from two secondary schools; and morons with comprehensive educations ( most English people I know would like the Irish system), a feudalist monarch, an unelected upper chamber, state employed bishops etc..


i would not change any of that - even though it is ludicrous - because it is central to their identity.
So I am not sure what you thought you were getting into. Why flee a supposedly Catholic run society ( hint: it is not the 50's) to a country with an Established church.

Answer: neither matters. People conserve stuff - like a l carte Catholicism, or Anglicanism - as a form of identity. It is particular sleeveenism, though, to note the problems in Ireland, and not noting the peculiar system in the UK. If we had their system, and the UK was a Republic with a constitution and no Established Chruch we would be just so terribly embarrassed.

So typical "progressive ****". I like the part of England I am in partly because it is traditional, and I like traditional stuff anywhere. The "multicultural" shtie can happen anywhere, and increasingly it does happen anywhere. And Londoners are far less enthused about their multi-cultural paradise than outsiders like yourself.

Meanwhile, Ireland;s laws are about as progressive as anywhere - with the excpetion of abortion - and still the "progressive" whine continues: abandon all identity, croppies lie down, make the entire world a secular republic of utter dullness.

I already have read 'some' history and I intend to read 'more'. Ok, maybe not hundreds of years but the Catholic church has been around long enough to do untold damage to our people, how long it took to do it isn't that important.

As for Irish politics being less corrupt, I don't know how you measure that exactly to make such a confident statement ?

As for religion, I've been to 8 weddings in the UK, not one of them in a church, all civil ceremonies. A much different experience on average at home. A lot of people in Ireland will cow-tow and say they're Catholic (even go and get holy communion at a wedding every few years to save embarrassment) more so than could ever be said in England. They don't have that baggage/guilt here I've noticed.

I like traditional too, I just don't like backward. Not sure why you brought up multiculturalism ?

As for our laws being progressive, your obviously didn't hear bout this, very depressing.

http://www.slaw.ca/2009/04/29/irish-minister-to-introduce-blasphemous-libel-law/

I was speechless when I heard about that particular gem.

And who said anything about abandoning identity? And who's to say a secular world would be any more dull than say the stiffling dullness of religious conservativism ?


Anyway, getting late now. Thanks for your feedback.

Ickle Magoo

asdasd wrote: »

yeah. He got money from someone to buy a house. The illegality ( which has not been tested in court) was a tax fraud. In the UK he would've been housed by the State.

The money was less than many of the expense claims in the UK where MPs clearly lied about what house they actually lived in , and thus defrauded the tax payer of similar amounts to Bertie, some more. Over longer periods of time.

Mandelson, for instance, did exactly what Bertie did. Someone gave him a house and he didnt declare it, even though Mandelson's department was investigating the guy at the time. He is back. Bertie's gone. Outside of Ireland nobody is really paying much attention to the Bertie Ahearn may not have declared his taxes when he was homeless while finance minister - it is not really up to Berlescunis level.

But you don't hear people in the UK going "Ah, poor Mandy, he was having a tough time of it..." do you? You don't hear people in the UK defending corrupt politicians, as you just did, ironically enough. In fact, the majority of big offenders lost their job & I'd bet my house a heap of others will go at the next election - and the house of commons/lords has changed the expenses system. The newspapers and newsrooms in the UK also don't have an issue with dragging MP's over the coals, unlike the weirdly muffled mutterings of the press here.

Ah, well, Berlusconi has just brought political corruption to a new level in modern politics - one even Haughey would be proud of. I'm not quite sure that the old "Well, the Italians/UK are more corrupt, na na, na, na na" really mean much in terms of reducing the validity of complaints about corruption here. You could argue that at least the UK has some degree of accountability tho not nearly enough to satisfy most of the electorate.

asdasd

Ah, look whats the point. good on the civil marriages. I find that dull. I have been to Anglican weddings where nobody had been to church since the last wedding. Like in 4 weddings and a funeral.

As for Irish politics being less corrupt, I don't know how you measure that exactly to make such a confident statement ?

the expenses scandal. A similar scandal in Ireland would have everybody falling about in utter ebarrasment. YOU LIVE IN LONDON. HOW DID YOU MISS IT?

As for our laws being progressive, your obviously didn't hear bout this, very depressing.

The UK had a blasphemy law until 2008. Did you even read about the law that was going to replace it - until the Lords turned it down the Commons was bringing in a law which made it a hate crime to criticise religion, seeing it as a proxy for criticism of ( well) Islam. A watered down version has been introduced which will still arrest people for the hate crime of criticising religion. Similar laws were passed in Australia, and Canada. Meanwhile the Irish law is merely an updating of a law which never arrested anybody - even during the 50's. A better solution. But why dont you know this?

And who said anything about abandoning identity? And who's to say a secular world would be any more dull than say the stiffling dullness of religious conservativism ?

Because we dont live ina world of religious conservativism - the only christian part of the world which is like that is the US - you were opposed to people having white weddings in Churches, and a supposedly catholic school system which ( as I know) does not teach much Catholicism but does educate better than the English one.

I might be coming across as anti-English here, far from it, but I actually live in the country and see it's flaws too. To balance it up - I like their country pubs, their tolerance which is not the same as "liberalism" - their ales, their village etc.

But, really, there is little difference in the two countries on "progessivism". THat is too much Hot Press 1985, move on.

Purple Gorilla

How has it done "untold damage to our people"?

I'm 17 and nobody I know in my school gives a crap about the church or any of it's teachings.
As for corruption, in 2008 Ireland ranked 16th in the Corruption Perceptions Index. That's ahead of the UK, USA and Japan to name a few. It's not amazing, and we could do a lot better, but it's not as corrupt as you're making it out to be.

EDIT: Omg
<< Evil post count

ascanbe

As has been proven here, over the last five or so years, most boards users despise illegal immigrants; so i doubt they would flout the laws of another country in order to better their position.
No doubt they would look down at the actions of Irish people of the past, that persected species known as 'the undocumented', and wouldn't dream of following in their footsteps.
So, i'd guess, most will live by the creed they've espoused, over the last few years, and will emmigrate to a given country only after ticking every legal box.
Surely they don't want to emulate the scummy 'illegal immigrants' they've spent so long railing against?

asdasd

You don't hear people in the UK defending corrupt politicians, as you just did, ironically enough. In fact, the majority of big offenders lost their job & I'd bet my house a heap of others will go at the next election - and the house of commons/lords has changed the expenses system. The newspapers and newsrooms in the UK also don't have an issue with dragging MP's over the coals, unlike the weirdly muffled mutterings of the press here.

Where hte f*ck did I defend Bertie. I pointed out that Mandelshon was as guilty as Bertie, same crime. The defence of Bertie you mention is a myth: I have never heard anyone say "poor man" - not even my once FF supporting mother, now a FG supporter. The English press may drag the politicans through the muck, but the response of the public was a big yawn.

Anyway, most did not lose their jobs. As I live here, forgive me if I point out that the Prime Minister of Ireland has lost his job for something that the real (unelected) leader of the UK has not lost his job for. And I put that they way an English friend of mine did.

What I am taking on here is the "Ireland is the worst place in the world mentality". I could probably, if I had never left it, come up with dozens of other reasons to dislike Ireland.

However, having left it I know the "worst place in the world" idea is really held by stay at homers, like small towners who complain about their town to people who come back, but who never ever leave. When you do leave, you will find most places as bad, or worse, on some or all points. At least in the supposedly problems you have - health, public transport, poltical shenanighans are about as bad everywhere in the Angloshpheric world, taxes are as high. And nobody here wants to go to Germany or Sweden. ( why not? they may actually be better on those points - except tax, of course).

That said the particular part of england I live in is very nice, so I am not saying where it is. I dont want my rep ruined by maudlin Irishmen who whine about Ireland to uninterested English people. That would steal my mojo.

asdasd

So, i'd guess, most will live by the creed they've espoused, over the last few years, and will emmigrate to a given country only after ticking every legal box.
Surely they don't want to emulate the scummy 'illegal immigrants' they've spent so long railing against?

Well given that they can go to all of Europe, and Australia and New Zealand are easy enough to get into, as is Canada ( with their points system) I suppose that is true. Not too many people are mentioning the US.

Ickle Magoo

You defend him by rushing to belittle his corruption in comparison to others.

asdasd wrote: »

When you do leave, you will find most places as bad, or worse, on some or all points.

Eh, I'm not Irish & I've lived in several countries - but thanks for the condescension; oh wise one. I agree, all countries have their faults - and Ireland being so wonderful you live in.....England, right. So not living in the UK, I can't comment on that (despite spending the past 20 odd yrs there) but you not living in Ireland can tell me how wrong I am not to like it here - um, okay then.

In All Fairness

It never ceases to amaze me how people in the upper tier of what I believe everyone accepts is a two tier society, continually call people in the lower tier losers and spongers. They complain about people on the dole or low wages being negative because they don't believe in slavery. They talk about resentment. Why shouldn't a person who was responsible for building this society feel resentful when all the promises that were made have been reneiged upon. Why shouldn't the people who worked their arses off in Dell and Intel and Microsoft for a wage that nobody else in Europe would work for, putting the next generation through college, feel bitter when they're still homeless in a lot of cases. Yes Ireland is a better place now. But it wasn't immigrants who built it. Ireland has become a capitalist society like America, run by an elite who don't believe that menial workers should have any rights except to make their lives better? That is why we have no social structure anymore. Any consultant can call €240,000 euro a year Mickey Mouse money without being called a cancer on Irish society but God forbid a manual worker would say €19,000 a year isn't fair or enough to live on despite being homeless. That person is just a lazy bastard who doesn't want to work. You can be sure that the politicians and bankers contracts will be honoured. The ridiculous state pensions will be honoured. But the 25% social housing that was promised (and couldn't be built due to lack of capacity :rolleyes:) will not be built. So these Irish men and women who lived in their parent's homes while paying off their parents' national debt will continue to live there (into their thirties in some cases) because the needs of the imported scab labour come first.
All I can say is, I'm astounded that people don't believe past contribution in building this society counts for anything. By this reckoning I would be perfectly entitled to go and live in someone's house,pay no rent, and slag off the people who paid off the mortgage while demanding equal rights just because I'm willing to contribute to the weekly bills.
I would have to say that if I was one of the polish people, living in Poland now building their economy, doing what we did twenty years ago, and in twenty years every blow-in from Turkey not only had equal rights, but would be entitled to social housing first cos they chose to have kids they couldn't support,I'd be furious.
I don't think it is an Irish thing though. I think it is more to do with inequality and injustice and a lot to do with lack of personal achievement and receiving no reward for simple hard work.

Edit: Sorry I'm a bitter unsuccessful man. Maybe this would have been better in Ranting & Raving.:(

ascanbe

asdasd wrote: »

Well given that they can go to all of Europe, and Australia and New Zealand are easy enough to get into, as is Canada ( with their points system) I suppose that is true. Not too many people are mentioning the US.

Correct, Sir; though Canada, perhaps not alone, will get tougher to get into very soon.
Anyway, i think you know what i'm getting at.

ascanbe

In All Fairness wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how people in the upper tier of what I believe everyone accepts is a two tier society, continually call people in the lower tier losers and spongers. They complain about people on the dole or low wages being negative because they don't believe in slavery. They talk about resentment. Why shouldn't a person who was responsible for building this society feel resentful when all the promises that were made have been reneiged upon. Why shouldn't the people who worked their arses off in Dell and Intel and Microsoft for a wage that nobody else in Europe would work for, putting the next generation through college, feel bitter when they're still homeless in a lot of cases. Yes Ireland is a better place now. But it wasn't immigrants who built it. Ireland has become a capitalist society like America, run by an elite who don't believe that menial workers should have any rights except to make their lives better? That is why we have no social structure anymore. Any consultant can call €240,000 euro a year Mickey Mouse money without being called a cancer on Irish society but God forbid a manual worker would say €19,000 a year isn't fair or enough to live on despite being homeless. That person is just a lazy bastard who doesn't want to work. You can be sure that the politicians and bankers contracts will be honoured. The ridiculous state pensions will be honoured. But the 25% social housing that was promised (and couldn't be built due to lack of capacity :rolleyes:) will not be built. So these Irish men and women who lived in their parent's homes while paying off their parents' national debt will continue to live there (into their thirties in some cases) because the needs of the imported scab labour come first.
All I can say is, I'm astounded that people don't believe past contribution in building this society counts for anything. By this reckoning I would be perfectly entitled to go and live in someone's house,pay no rent, and slag off the people who paid off the mortgage while demanding equal rights just because I'm willing to contribute to the weekly bills.
I would have to say that if I was one of the polish people, living in Poland now building their economy, doing what we did twenty years ago, and in twenty years every blow-in from Turkey not only had equal rights, but would be entitled to social housing first cos they chose to have kids they couldn't support,I'd be furious.
I don't think it is an Irish thing though. I think it is more to do with inequality and injustice and a lot to do with lack of personal achievement and receiving no reward for simple hard work.

I kinda agree with some of the points contained in your post.
A lot of it doesn't make any sense to me.
I'll give myself the benifit of the doubt and presume you are even drunker than i am right now.:D

Ickle Magoo

In All Fairness wrote: »

So these Irish men and women who lived in their parent's homes while paying off their parents' national debt will continue to live there (into their thirties in some cases) because the needs of the imported scab labour come first.

Ah, come on now. If you shipped off every immigrant that required social housing tomorrow, there would still be swathes of Irish people unable to afford housing. There is only so much naval gazing and blame on migrant workers you can honestly do before you have to accept the real issue is complete mismanagement of services and economy during the boom years and the continual election of the government responsible for or complicit in said mismanagement - by the local populous.

In All Fairness

ascanbe wrote: »

I kinda agree with some of the points contained in your post.
A lot of it doesn't make any sense to me.
I'll give myself the benifit of the doubt and presume you are even drunker than i am right now.:D

I wish I was. I'm far less bitter when I'm drunk.:)

Keep drinking mate. When none of it makes any sense you'll be "nicely". Remember, you're not drunk when you can lie on the floor without holding on.;)

Xavi6

I left, and it was the best thing I ever did from a personal point of view. Some people are happy in the goldfish bowl but I'd had enough and got out.

I still love Ireland, and it'll always be home, but it's not even close to being the best place in the world, especially right now.

In All Fairness

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Ah, come on now. If you shipped off every immigrant that required social housing tomorrow, there would still be swathes of Irish people unable to afford housing. There is only so much naval gazing and blame on migrant workers you can honestly do before you have to accept the real issue is complete mismanagement of services and economy during the boom years and the continual election of the government responsible for or complicit in said mismanagement - by the local populous.

I agree with you totally, and I have absolutely nothing against immigrant workers. It is the importers of the scab labour, I have a problem with. It has led to a situation where certain sections of indigenous society have no voice. The immigrants can't complain for obvious reasons. They chose to come here. Also they have no vote. If however you had indigenous cleaners, shop workers, barstaff etc. who had been doing these jobs for twenty years it would be far more difficult for the government to dismiss their claims to social housing, fair pay etc. An unskilled immigrant cannot go out on strike without appearing ungrateful and they cannot legitimately feel any resentment over broken promises that were not made to them.

I wonder how many consultants would be talking about Mickey Mouse money if they had to work alongside the Joe soaps who put them through college while demanding fifteen times the salary of these people.

But as you say it is due to mismanagement, cronyism, and the privileges afforded to certain special interest groups coupled with the apathy, disgust and frustration of people like myself. I have never voted Fianna Fail nor will I be voting FG or Labour either. The problem is Leinster House but short of a revolution I'm not sure what can be done.:(

Ickle Magoo

In All Fairness wrote: »

I agree with you totally, and I have absolutely nothing against immigrant workers. It is the importers of the scab labour, I have a problem with. It has led to a situation where certain sections of indigenous society have no voice. The immigrants can't complain for obvious reasons. They chose to come here. Also they have no vote.

Legal migrants certainly do have a vote - except in referendums. I would think migrants both legal & illegal make up a tiny proportion of the overall population here.

In All Fairness wrote: »

If however you had indigenous cleaners, shop workers, barstaff etc. who had been doing these jobs for twenty years it would be far more difficult for the government to dismiss their claims to social housing, fair pay etc.

The minute you signed up to Europe, you opened to door to migrants plus the minimum wage in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe - what did you think was going to happen?

In All Fairness wrote: »

I wonder how many consultants would be talking about Mickey Mouse money if they had to work alongside the Joe soaps who put them through college while demanding fifteen times the salary of these people.

I'm not sure who mentioned mickey mouse money? Or who would be demanding 15X the salary despite paying said consultants through college...I can't speak for everyone but the students I know paid for themselves or their parents did - do you mean your taxes paid their fees? It is quite important to have consultants and lawyers and so on...and they in turn pay astronomic taxes which funds things like the social housing projects.

In All Fairness wrote: »

But as you say it is due to mismanagement, cronyism, and the privileges afforded to certain special interest groups coupled with the apathy, disgust and frustration of people like myself. I have never voted Fianna Fail nor will I be voting FG or Labour either. The problem is Leinster House but short of a revolution I'm not sure what can be done.:(

I don't know what can be done either. A bit more dissent in the ranks would definitely be a start. My husband is Irish, he wanted to come "home", he's more disillusioned than I am now. The families I mentioned earlier - two of them were returning to a county they had left Ireland for, many years ago. Leaving close relatives & friends to carve out a better life for themselves and their families. It's a really sad situation, in this day & age.

Locamon

ignoring all of the side issues raised the answer to the OP is yes I would emigrate!

Have had to do it twice in the past and if I have no option I will go again...

do I want to? No.

Ickle Magoo

asdasd wrote: »

But, really, there is little difference in the two countries on "progessivism". THat is too much Hot Press 1985, move on.

In the UK my kids can go to their local school without presenting a baptismal cert, I can go to hospital without being harangued by a priest, there are motorways outside of the Greater London area and the shops open on a Sunday - you may not think that's progressive but trying growing up with them then moving to country that doesn't & see how "progressive" you find it.

staker

emigrated once, migrated for 6 years,would i emigrate again??
i'd love to, i can't... Debts outstanding.

DamoDLK

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Yes Sir im off to the land down under in a few weeks, and no Before ye ask im not one of those Backpacker sheep that will Just go to Sydney and live and Drink in a Irish pub with other Irish people while wearing my county colours and never meeting local Aussie or never asimilating into the local community.....

JJ the miser... just one point to make here.. going by your username and various other posts.. your in for a shock! AU$8.50 for bread and milk.. mars bar $2.50......................just a thought for u.