"Operation Armageddon" in 1969 would have been mass suicide for Irish - STAY ON TOPIC

Kalashnikov_Kid

Donny5 wrote: »

The Boer did eventually surrender.

With eventually being the operative word.

My point being: when the British Army underestimate the calibre of what's in front of them, they often fail.

Donny5

Adamisconfused wrote: »

And.....
Even if it ended in abject failure, it doesn't take away from the fact that people are willing to volunteer. I was only pointing out that some people would stand up regardless of the odds. Previous posts doubted that many people would do. I disagree.

My apologies, I misunderstood your point. In that case, it should be noted that there were approximately fifteen thousand combatants on the Republican side in the War of Independence, or about 0.5% of the population at the time.

Whilst the War of Independence achieved a lot for us, it was not an example of a mobilised populace.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

My point when the British Army underestimate the calibre of what's in front of them, they often fail.

It's fair to say that the Boer were an unknown quantity at the start of the war, unlike Ireland in the late sixties.

The British army would have had plenty of knowledge on what the invaders were capable of as well as fighting on "home ground" with a significant percentage of the civilian population supporting and providing assistance.

There wouldn't have been any underestimation, also reinforcements were just accross the water! (hours away, rather than several weeks away).

robby^5

Adamisconfused wrote: »

What happened between 1919 and 1922? What happened in the north throughout the last conflict?

Entirely different scenario.

What you're talking about is untrained men who may have never held a rifle in their lives suddenly being able to stand up against british soldiers? Not a chance.

The men who were involved in the war of independance at least had some semeblenace of training and organistion, in this scenario there simply wouldnt be the time for such measures. In the long haul, yes we'd have made an occupation very undesireable but an actual Biritsh invasion would have been a cakewalk.

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

links about the boer wars...

But the Boers were actually very well prepared to defend themselves, they had measures setup whereby in an emergency they would form units, elect officers and most of them were armed and able to use those arms.

In this scenario we're talking about 1969 Ireland, it's deluded to think the population of Ireland would be able to mobilise itself anywhere near as well as the Boers did.

The Boer war? Is that a joke?


When everyone has rifles, it's a bit fairer than when one side has a large number of tanks, supersonic jet fighters/bombers and bloody aircraft carriers(not that they would have needed them against Ireland) how the hell could you possible think we could have beaten them.

Hagar

And while all this was going on, what would the literally hundreds of thousands of Irish in Britain have been doing?

Internment or sabotage?

asdasd

The US was fully prepared to help but for some reason, as I already stated in this thread, the Irish Government has always sort of shunned most of Irish America.

It was in it's ass. The UK was the ally of the US, while we were hiding behind the skirttails of NATO.

You also over-estimate the loyalty of Irish America. Half of that number is Protestant - that is of what they call "Scots Irish" descent. A quarter ( then, and more now) are of multiple ethnic descent, but pick the coolest. Someone of English, Irish and German descent would say Irish as English is not really seen as a lineage in the US ( it is the default), and German was still looked askance at since the war. These people were not interested in us.

The other 25%, if that, were split between people with minor loyalties and a few future NorAid types.

The Jewish community whilst smaller was, and is, better organised, has better access to media, and is better at convincing America that it's loyalties should be with Isreal.

Even though that was true then the US did little or nothing in 1967, or 1973 ( now, it might go to war because of the rise of Christian Zionism).

Irish America is really really unimportant now. Look at the Mary Robinson fiasco. The Zionist blogoshphere said what it wanted to, that became the normal discourse of the American right, and Irish America sat back and said little, or nothing, and what was said was ineffectual.

That's now: even then Irish America had little real clout.

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

And while all this was going on, what would the literally hundreds of thousands of Irish in Britain have been doing?

Internment or sabotage?

We were very worried! (well My parants, I was still quite young then) if this had escallated we'd be at risk of discrimination & reprisals from our neighbours.

Kalashnikov_Kid

My point re: the Boer War stands. It would be nice if it could be taken on board exclusively, without the need to throw words in my mouth. Where did I say the Irish would win in 1969? All I'm saying id that I don't think it would have been such a foregone conclusion as many people here think. History has taught us that in the past. As has been mentioned before in some of my other posts, the mobilisation of Irish troops to the border was taken very seriously by those involved, and the British Embassy was burned down by right-on Southsiders. Tensions were very high at the time across the country, so who knows what various scenarios would have unfolded.

Internment/inprisonment of Irish mainlanders would have been almost a certain consequence. Look at the Guildord Four case.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

And while all this was going on, what would the literally hundreds of thousands of Irish in Britain have been doing?

Internment or sabotage?

Hiding from the millions of Brits probably.

mike65

It would have been the likely fate of the Irish in Britain that would have ended any incursion pretty quickly (apart from anything else like air power blowing the Irish Army to bits in seconds)

Fratton Fred

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

My point re: the Boer War stands. It would be nice if it could be taken on board exclusively, without the need to throw words in my mouth. Where did I say the Irish would win in 1969? All I'm saying id that I don't think it would have been such a foregone conclusion as many people here think. History has taught us that in the past. As has been mentioned before in some of my other posts, the mobilisation of Irish troops to the border was taken very seriously by those involved, and the British Embassy was burned down by right-on Southsiders. Tensions were very high at the time across the country, so who knows what various scenarios would have unfolded.

Internment/inprisonment of Irish mainlanders would have been almost a certain consequence. Look at the Guildord Four case.

You are mixing scenarios though. Britain and Ireland were never at war, you talk about the burning of the British embassy, but do you really think the Irish embassy in london would have escaped. 99% of people recognised that the British army was doing wrong but wrote this off as a reaction to a terrorist organisation, there would have been an entirely different reaction if the British army were seen to be holding the moral highground against the country of ireland.

Not only would Kilburn have been a battle ground, but the UVF would be sending out for extra balaclavas.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hiding from the millions of Brits probably.

Probably true. At least with a change of accent we can disappear in Britain. Not like, say, the Japanese in the US during WWII. As long as we keep our noses clean we might be have been alright.

Fratton Fred wrote:

but the UVF would be sending out for extra balaclavas.

This UVF Its's the BBC so it must be true, right?

Dartz

Ssshhh..... it's starting....

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

Probably true. At least with a change of accent we can disappear in Britain. Not like, say, the Japanese in the US during WWII. As long as we keep our noses clean we might be have been alright.


This UVF Its's the BBC so it must be true, right?

What you don't think there plenty of right wing combat 18 type nutters that would flock to the UVF?

Besides, the Irish in London would be easy to find. For some reason every Irishman who moves to the UK becomes addicted to Christy Moore, play one of his tracks in a pub and then target the ones singing along, simple :-)

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Besides, the Irish in London would be easy to find. For some reason every Irishman who moves to the UK becomes addicted to Christy Moore, play one of his tracks in a pub and then target the ones singing along, simple :-)

Got me there.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nah its Damo we're hooked on these days, singin along to de Coloneee :pac:

ejmaztec

....and there would have been songs and quotes of the moment, knocked together in 69, to be handed down, generation after generation, like:

My da became a lady-boy to avoid conscription, diddly aye, diddly aye, etc etc etc.................................................

or:

This is the worse 69 I've ever had, diddly aye, diddly aye, etc etc etc.................................................

or:

I went to Armagh, and all I got was this lousy body-bag

mike65

So then, does Ms Keelin Shanley still have her tonsils? Wasn't sure myself the camera didn't quite get close enough.

Cremated

Sorry to go OT here, but does anyone know if this program will be repeated this week?, I missed the first 30 minutes...

Darr3nG

It's mad the tension I'm feeling watching this now...

Imagine what it must've been like for the people back then, both sides of the border!

Donny5

I got my first real rifle
Jack Lynch thought it was the time
Fired it 'til my fingers bled
It was summer of '69

Me and some guys from school
Had a Squad and we tried real hard
Jimmy died and Jody got mortared
I shualda known we'd never get far

Oh when I lock back now
That war seemed to last forever
And if I had the choice
Na - I wouldn't go back either,
Those were the worst days of my life

Lazairus

The camera angles are rubbish. its like something from cloverfield. The presenter is rubbish.

laz

K-9

Think that was the "DOH" moment!

anonymous_joe

Your one's accent is horrendous. Never speak in a D4 accent unless it's natural. :pac:

Spiritoftheseventies

K-9 wrote: »

Think that was the "DOH" moment!

What was the point of Lynch making that speech?

jumpguy

Lazairus wrote: »

The camera angles are rubbish. its like something from cloverfield. The presenter is rubbish.

laz

True, this fecking zooming in-and-out, focussing-unfocussing camera ****e that looks like some just-out-of-college media studies student thought up of is doing my head in. It's crap, the presenters are not of the sort of charector. It's like the camera is sceaming dramatics and the presenters are talking facts.

K-9

bayviewclose wrote: »

What was the point of Lynch making that speech?

Sorry, was referring to the RAF Bombers coming in!

Point of the speech? Main reason. The IRA was a shambles and there was no defence of the Nationalists. They where on their own and nobody gave a b*llicks in the Stormont or indeed Westminster Govt.

Spiritoftheseventies

K-9 wrote: »

Sorry, was referring to the RAF Bombers coming in!

Point of the speech? Main reason. The IRA was a shambles and there was no defence of the Nationalists. They where on their own and nobody gave a b*llicks in the Stormont or indeed Westminster Govt.

Yes but the words "can no longer stand by". Totally gave the wrong impression that government was going to take a stand against Northern Sectarianism.. Filled Irish Catholic up north with false hope. What did it achieve in the end?

Scrambled egg

We lost? Ahhhh shucks