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A few questions about the European Union.

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  • 31-08-2009 7:57pm
    #1
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭


    Can I be arrested for something which is not a crime in Ireland, but is a crime in another Eu country.Even though I've never been to that particular country.

    As a citizen of European Union, Would I be held to anymore laws than, If I was just an Irish citizen?


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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Can I be arrested for something which is not a crime in Ireland, but is a crime in another Eu country.Even though I've never been to that particular country.

    As a citizen of European Union, Would I be held to anymore laws than, If I was just an Irish citizen?

    A EU arrest warrant can be issued if you conduct any sort of illegal activity within the bounds of another member state regardless of whether you actually physically visited there. An example would be committing fraud against a person or business in another member state without ever physically setting foot there. The same directive protects you against people from other EU states trying to defraud you.


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    #3
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Can I be arrested for something which is not a crime in Ireland, but is a crime in another Eu country.Even though I've never been to that particular country

    No. If it is not a crime in ireland to jaywalk then you can not be arrested for it under spanish law if you jaywalked in Dublin.

    Cross border fraud is a different thing and a crime all EU countries, i would suspect.


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    #4
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Ok very good.
    So for things like fraud, I can as I don't need to be physically there. Example using my computer for to defraud.
    What about crimes like hate crimes?


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    #5
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Can I be arrested for something which is not a crime in Ireland, but is a crime in another Eu country.Even though I've never been to that particular country.

    As a citizen of European Union, Would I be held to anymore laws than, If I was just an Irish citizen?

    No. The European Arrest Warrant is nothing more than a simplified extradition arrangement, replacing the 1995 and 1996 EU Extradition Conventions. You need to go to another EU country, commit a crime (by their laws) and flee the country, exactly as you would (or do) now.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #6
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No. The European Arrest Warrant is nothing more than a simplified extradition arrangement, replacing the 1995 and 1996 EU Extradition Conventions. You need to go to another EU country, commit a crime (by their laws) and flee the country, exactly as you would (or do) now.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    Very good. Thanks.


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    #7
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    I would imagine that you'd need to break European law for you to be prosecuted by the EU court .


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    #8
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    I would imagine that you'd need to break European law for you to be prosecuted by the EU court .

    That's what I asked when I was asking my question.
    As a citizen of European Union, Would I be held to anymore laws than, If I was just an Irish citizen?

    So would you say that's a yes ?


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    #9
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    Don't know, not a lawyer.


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    #10
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Very good. Thanks.

    your not planing anything are you ;)


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    #11
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    I'm under the impression Lisbon will hold me to more laws.
    That's why I asked.Hopefully we can get some clarification on this,


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    #12
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    are you asking if its possible for something to be legal in ireland but illegal in the EU?

    if so I dont think so as EU law would come into effect in ireland and while that may not happen at the same time as in other MS I dont think you can be prosecuted in say Italy if you do something in ireland thats legal in ireland

    I am also pretty sure that you cannot be prosecuted in Italy for doing something illegal in ireland


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    #13
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I'm under the impression Lisbon will hold me to more laws.
    That's why I asked.Hopefully we can get some clarification on this,

    The Lisbon Treaty confers very few additional competancies on the EU with the exception of a common energy policy and some aspects of humanitarian aid, tourism, sport and administrative cooperation.

    On the subject of any areas moving to QMV, this has no effect on the scope of laws that may be enacted, only the manner in which decisions are reached.

    Off topic - according to An Phoblacht the Lisbon transfers soverignty on Economic Policy to the EU. :eek:


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    #14
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I'm under the impression Lisbon will hold me to more laws.
    That's why I asked.Hopefully we can get some clarification on this,

    Well, not through the European Arrest Warrant, certainly (which isn't in Lisbon anyway).

    Why are you under that impression, and what kind of laws?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #15
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    I would imagine that you'd need to break European law for you to be prosecuted by the EU court .

    Actually, you'd have to be a country, or the EU itself.

    amused,
    Scofflaw


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    #16
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    It just a basic assumption I have.Am I incorrect?


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    #17
    Freeborn John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Actually, you'd have to be a country, or the EU itself.

    amused,
    Scofflaw

    More junk from the yes-men. EU regulations have "general application" and are binding on individuals as soon as they are made. And Lisbon allows the creation of a body of EU criminal law which will apply on individuals. Initially these measures were billed as being necessary to prevent terrorism but already they are being applied to lesser crimes like piracy.


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    #18
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Freeborn John wrote: »
    More junk from the yes-men. EU regulations have "general application" and are binding on individuals as soon as they are made. And Lisbon allows the creation of a body of EU criminal law which will apply on individuals. Initially these measures were billed as being necessary to prevent terrorism but already they are being applied to lesser crimes like piracy.

    ah..I think he was referring to the mention of an individual being prosecuted by the "European Court"...not that individuals are not subject to european law


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    #19
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Freeborn John wrote: »
    More junk from the yes-men. EU regulations have "general application" and are binding on individuals as soon as they are made. And Lisbon allows the creation of a body of EU criminal law which will apply on individuals. Initially these measures were billed as being necessary to prevent terrorism but already they are being applied to lesser crimes like piracy.

    Freeborn John, if we wanted these forums to be full of people calling each other names, we wouldn't have moderators. If you can't stop yourself from labelling anyone who disagrees with you, you'll have to find somewhere else to post.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #20
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Freeborn John wrote: »
    More junk from the yes-men. EU regulations have "general application" and are binding on individuals as soon as they are made.

    No, they are binding on countries as soon as they are made. It's up to each national legislature to implement it in national law, then and only then do they becoming binding on individuals. If you were to contravene an EU directive it would be the responsibility of our domestic court system to prosecute you. The domestic court in turn has to answer to the ECJ. The ECJ can't take a case against an individual it can only take cases against companies and states.
    Freeborn John wrote: »
    And Lisbon allows the creation of a body of EU criminal law which will apply on individuals. Initially these measures were billed as being necessary to prevent terrorism but already they are being applied to lesser crimes like piracy.

    Example please?


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    #21
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    scofflaw wrote:
    Well, not through the European Arrest Warrant, certainly (which isn't in Lisbon anyway).

    Why are you under that impression, and what kind of laws?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    Any law of any institution in the EU.


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    #22
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Any law of any institution in the EU.

    Well, perhaps you can cite me an individual who broke an EU law, and was prosecuted for it by the EU. Otherwise it's a little difficult to see what exactly you're asking here.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #23
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Well, perhaps you can cite me an individual who broke an EU law, and was prosecuted for it by the EU. Otherwise it's a little difficult to see what exactly you're asking here.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    I'm under the impression Lisbon will hold me to more laws.Yes or no is fine.I'm not a political person that's why I'm asking you this as your the man to ask.


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    #24
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I'm under the impression Lisbon will hold me to more laws.Yes or no is fine.I'm not a political person that's why I'm asking you this as your the man to ask.

    I could just say "no", which I think is the answer, but I'd be happier if I can work out exactly what you're asking, because your question, as currently phrased, doesn't quite make sense.

    Lisbon doesn't create any new areas of law that you'll be held to, if that's what you mean. It certainly doesn't involve holding an Irish citizen to the laws of, say, Spain - except when you're in Spain, obviously. If those are the kind of things you mean, then no, Lisbon will not hold you to any more laws.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #25
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    For example.

    Made up scenario.
    I go to the off license and buy a nice bottle of wine.I then walk home with the wine and I get stopped by the guards.They say, I'm arresting you on such and such under eu law wino, section 10.That's what I mean.

    Or If I make a website and label Caucasians as bad people. Can I under EU law be prosecuted for hate crimes or something?


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    #26
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    For example.

    Made up scenario.
    I go to the off license and buy a nice bottle of wine.I then walk home with the wine and I get stopped by the guards.They say, I'm arresting you on such and such under eu law wino, section 10.That's what I mean.

    Or If I make a website and label Caucasians as bad people. Can I under EU law be prosecuted for hate crimes or something?


    No national criminal law is not an EU competence and never will be. Simplifying a little bit but the scope of the EU in relation to criminal justice matters is pretty much confined to mundane cross-border concerns such as police co-operation etc.


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    #27
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    For example.

    Made up scenario.
    I go to the off license and buy a nice bottle of wine.I then walk home with the wine and I get stopped by the guards.They say, I'm arresting you on such and such under eu law wino, section 10.That's what I mean.

    Or If I make a website and label Caucasians as bad people. Can I under EU law be prosecuted for hate crimes or something?

    Er, no, neither. In almost all important respects, and certainly in the kinds of case you're talking about there, you're subject only to the national laws of Ireland. EU laws would apply to you only by virtue of having been codified into Irish law.

    Now, if you're a business, you might run afoul of EU regulations. You still wouldn't be tried by an EU court, though, and it would still be a civil matter. The EU doesn't have the power to set criminal sanctions.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #28
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Very good,police co-operation is a good thing.I am myself a business owner so that's good to hear.

    Is there any hate laws coming into Lisbon or are there any in place right now that you are aware of?


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    #29
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Very good,police co-operation is a good thing.I am myself a business owner so that's good to hear.

    Is there any hate laws coming into Lisbon or are there any in place right now that you are aware of?

    There's a very loose Framework Decision, which came out last November, which reflects an agreement between the member states to try and harmonise the various national laws. It succeeds Joint Action 96/443/JHA, which had much the same effect. The Framework Decision contains sufficient leeway for a state to more or less make it a dead letter (in several different ways), which is hardly surprising, considering the various concerns of the member states.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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