I am reading the lisbon treaty!

Torakx

im sorry i fail to see how i was being a hypocrit ^^
i dont feel like i am in a no camp yes camp enviornment.
i decide for myself and i encourage all to read the treaty before voting as i did.
however what i said before i wont repeat because it still stands for me and anyone can read it above.

your basis for arguement here seems to be if somebody does not understand and still wants to vote they should vote yes or else it is they should vote either yes or no?

imo i would say no because you can always have the chance to come back to it later for example we voted no last time and walla its back again!

should we vote yes with little understanding what are the consequences?
i feel like it would be alot harder to come back to this desicion to decide.


so this is why i feel my point still stands.

but let me be clear i still encourage everyone to read the treaty.

ei.sdraob

Torakx wrote: »

there are many reasons for voting certain ways. everyone has the right to vote.

no arguments there with that but then you proceed to tell people how to vote based on ignorance

Torakx wrote: »

i would still say IF you are going to vote and dont understand what your gettign into.vote no

you also make a mistake of assuming its the governments job to politically educate people! what is this Communist China ?!

Torakx wrote: »

the government has the right to educate on what people are voting for.
IF they fail to educate properly then imo a no vote is justified.certainly not a yes! .

:rolleyes: wow just wow


its the referendum commissions job to put out impartial and complete information

it is the political parties/organisations jobs to run a campaign on whatever issues they choose that reflect their party views

it is your choice and imperative as a citizen to absorb information available and make an educated vote

saying rubbish like

Torakx wrote: »

i would still say IF you are going to vote and dont understand what your gettign into.vote no

is no worse than SF slogan from last year which is insulting to people

if you dont know vote no

Torakx

i dont think it hypocritical to say people have the RIGHT to vote and then advise them on exercising that right.
any advice is not a command only an opinion based on the persons perception of things.
so i may be accused of pushing a no vote in the case of people who are too lazy or not educated enough to read the treaty.but in no way did i contradict myself as far as i can see.

either way it does not matter all that much.and we are possibly just exercising our egos bouncing off one another over a silly topic.

the people that did not read the treaty or dont understand it will most likely be the average voter who is swayed by political parties.

from what i see the government wants us to vote yes.but if they want that yes they need to either educate the masses a bit better or plain lie or give half truths(like showing only the good sides of it)

my opinion is not written in gold and the original poster can read my comments and decide for himself.
if you feel he should not vote or vote yes by all means say so to him in this thread and maybe state some reasons why.
and that will be your opinion.

but if he is going to vote while not being able to understand the treaty what do you say to that? vote yes? vote no? good luck?
my opinion is that a no vote is better than a yes in this situation.
and he can take that or leave it.

A Primal Nut

Torakx wrote: »

im sorry i fail to see how i was being a hypocrit ^^
i dont feel like i am in a no camp yes camp enviornment.
i decide for myself and i encourage all to read the treaty before voting as i did.
however what i said before i wont repeat because it still stands for me and anyone can read it above.

your basis for arguement here seems to be if somebody does not understand and still wants to vote they should vote yes or else it is they should vote either yes or no?

imo i would say no because you can always have the chance to come back to it later for example we voted no last time and walla its back again!

should we vote yes with little understanding what are the consequences?
i feel like it would be alot harder to come back to this desicion to decide.


so this is why i feel my point still stands.

but let me be clear i still encourage everyone to read the treaty.

There are plenty of brief and not so brief guides out there. The idea that you have to read the whole treaty in case they have sneaked something in there is absolutely absurd. Ok, I don't fully trust politicians either but they aren't to sneak some sentence in the middle: "all 18-year olds have to be conscripted" or some crap. There is the white paper you can read or alternatively just read the official guides. If you are worried about them being biased then focus on the facts listed, don't focus on the opinions. Its not hard to make an educated vote.

Plenty of legislation introduced is complicated; because its full of legal talk intended to shore up loopholes etc. To say you shouldn't vote on something because of this isn't right.

No no voter has ever come up with a quote from the treaty which contradicted anything in the official guides, so there is nothing to worry about. And the official guides are not complicated.

Torakx

yet we have many people who will be voting without reading them....
i agree its not that hard to understand the basics...but that is only for me personally.i dont know the degree in which others have been educated.

so i er on the side of NO.
its not a perfect choice to have to make but should i have to choose that is the one based on my education and perception of the world and how it is.
the same reason others are voting yes.
its all about motives i guess.
i dont think i was being a hypocrit at all.i just put my opinion down and it does not have to be accepted.

and the basis for that was if someone is going to be ignorant a no is easier to come back from than a yes from what i see.

i do think on a practical level people should search out the key points of the treaty and reference it and see what it says exactly.
this is how i started for example the majority voting.
this might be enough for them to get a general idea and decide.

but it seems to me people will be voting without even doing this. and thats slightly worrying if they make there decision based on what the tv or radio tells them.

i must go out now and probably not back for a while.so i will most likely not come back to this thread as i have said enough i think to show my stance.
but thanks for the lively debate all who joined in.was a nice distraction and i hope no hard feelings.
just egos and opinions we are trading.

ps i will read replies so as not be ignorant. i just have nothing else to say

ei.sdraob

Torakx wrote: »

yet we have many people who will be voting without reading them....
i agree its not that hard to understand the basics...but that is only for me personally.i dont know the degree in which others have been educated.

so i er on the side of NO.
its not a perfect choice to have to make but should i have to choose that is the one based on my education and perception of the world and how it is.
the same reason others are voting yes.
its all about motives i guess.
i dont think i was being a hypocrit at all.i just put my opinion down and it does not have to be accepted.

and the basis for that was if someone is going to be ignorant a no is easier to come back from than a yes from what i see.

i do think on a practical level people should search out the key points of the treaty and reference it and see what it says exactly.
this is how i started for example the majority voting.
this might be enough for them to get a general idea and decide.

but it seems to me people will be voting without even doing this. and thats slightly worrying if they make there decision based on what the tv or radio tells them.

by your reasoning then its ok to say

if you dont know vote YES

and

if you dont know flip a coin


instead of doing your bit to help educate other people reading this you are taking the lazy way out that suits you

you also mistakenly assume that its the government jobs to educate people, it is not their job

being a citizen involves having freedoms but it also means having responsibility

it is your job as a citizen to absorb the information available, and theres no lack of that

ei.sdraob

and the basis for that was if someone is going to be ignorant a no is easier to come back from than a yes from what i see.

you imply that we cant "comeback" from voting YES

its the opposite

let me remind you that there is a "Leave EU" clause in Lisbon which sets out how a state can leave if they don't like the direction taken

something that doesn't exist now

_ZeeK_

_ZeeK_ wrote: »

or how about you read the explanatory literature and commentaries coming from REPUTABLE sources..? see an economist or political commentator you recognise and admire discussing the treaty..? don't turn off the political discussion program/news/current events show. watch it an form an opinion..

i admire the OP for trying to understand the ambit of this text (and for getting as far as he did). it seems that not enough are willing to educate themselves. laziness.

Moromaster wrote: »

Libertas = reputable?

Hmm, I see.

where did i say libertas was reputable? declan ganly appeared from nowhere. he was nowhere in the political sphere before that. thats the opposite of what i was saying. how could you trust someone from an organisation we knew nothing about at the time?