Nixon and Watergate

Anonymous1987

After watching Frost/Nixon (excellent film, not so good documentary) it sparked my interest in Watergate and Nixon himself and I read up on him and his presidency. There are a few topics that I'd like to discuss.

It seems to be widely accepted that Nixon was not responsible for the Watergate break-in, only the cover-up however given his somewhat paranoid personality wouldn't it be likely that he was involved in ordering the break-in to spy on the democrats?

Aside from Watergate Nixons presidency seems pretty successful and progressive i.e. improving relations with China, establishment of the EPA, desegregating schools, withdrawal from Vietnam, ending the gold standard, moves to achieve comprehensive health cover as well as consumer and occupational health and safety organisations. Is history too harsh on Nixon achievements in light of Watergate?

Nixons actions in Vietnam would seem to suggest that he was unnecessarily heavy handed towards the end of the war. His incursion on neutral Combodia and bombing of Loas has been criticised and may have increased radicalism in the region. On the other hand such action could be claimed to be necessary to achieve favourably peace terms and to dispel the idea of US weakness in a time still dominated by the cold war. Was it unessary?

Finally I'd like to discuss Nixon himself. He is often portrayed as a narcissitic and paranoid but at the same time it seems he felt that what he was doing was right. Nixon was also distrustful of the media and the left and felt under siege from them, not altogther wrong but in the end it seemed to become a self fufilling prophecy where assuming he didn't order the watergate break-in he got involved in something out of fear of what the opposition would do with it which would ultimately cost him the presidency.

jank

I think he was ultimately flawed, did lots of good things but his legacy will be that he thought that being president made you above the law. And of course he is the only president to resign the office in disgrace. Should have served some time but thats history.

Overheal

Power corrupts. Nixon just pushed the office beyond its limits.

At least he's appreciated in the future...

should he be in jail? That was before my time. And frankly, thats a decision best left to that generation. but I cant recall any president ever being imprisoned.

Nodin

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Finally I'd like to discuss Nixon himself. He is often portrayed as a narcissitic and paranoid but at the same time it seems he felt that what he was doing was right. Nixon was also distrustful of the media and the left and felt under siege from them, not altogther wrong but in the end it seemed to become a self fufilling prophecy where assuming he didn't order the watergate break-in he got involved in something out of fear of what the opposition would do with it which would ultimately cost him the presidency.

He was also extremely paranoid with regard to jews ('Not you Henry', 'No Sir, Of Course not Sir'), regarded mixed race children as a valid cause for abortion, was involved in the installation of Pinochet and aided Pakistan in its repression of Bangladesh. Add to that the out of control booze problem, the rages.....

Anonymous1987

I think he should have served some time, the president is put on a pedestal in America today whereas originally the objective was limit the presidents powers thus preventing tyranny. Nixon bought into this thinking the president is above the law and I think Ford probably thought that to maintain the image of the office he had to protect Nixon from the courts.

I haven't read anywhere about an alcohol problem but I guess he certainly liked his few drinks judging by his drunken phone call to Kissinger.

Black Swan

Overheal wrote: »

but I cant recall any president ever being imprisoned.

They were nipping at his heels! His Republican Vice President Spiro Agnew was convicted, but I have not read that he was in fact put behind bars (but rather given house arrest to suffer punishment in his personal New England mansion with servants to cater to his needs)?

I can just hear Gerald Ford's answer to Nixon, who by appointment replaced Agnew as VP under Nixon... "Ger, would you like to be president? Guarantee me a pardon for all my sins, and I will resign."

Ford ponders to himself... I could watch all the Michigan football games in the Oval Office... and the White House kitchen would be supplying me with all the popcorn, peanuts, hotdogs, and cool ones on demand, whoa! Ford turns to Nixon, "Yes Dick, if the nation calls, I will serve!"

Icaras

He was a crook. He didnt see anything wrong with the president of Ameriaca covering up break ins and phone taps of people he saw as his opponents. He refused to hand over the white house tapes even though the courts ordered him to do so and when he left made a deal with Ford that he owned the tapes - not the president, not the Americian people, him alone.
He did do some good things like open relations China but he only pulled out of Vetnam when it became apparent to him that they would win nothing more.
Hunter S Tompson wrote some great articles about him contained in his book the great shark hunt.

mikemac

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

They were nipping at his heels! His Republican Vice President Spiro Agnew was convicted, but I have not read that he was in fact put behind bars (but rather given house arrest to suffer punishment in his personal New England mansion with servants to cater to his needs)?

Not to be pedantic but Spiro Agnew was from Maryland which isn't New England

Anonymous1987

Icaras wrote: »

He was a crook. He didnt see anything wrong with the president of Ameriaca covering up break ins and phone taps of people he saw as his opponents. He refused to hand over the white house tapes even though the courts ordered him to do so and when he left made a deal with Ford that he owned the tapes - not the president, not the Americian people, him alone.

I don't know about calling him a crook its not like he profited from his actions. If by crook you mean he broke the law, yes, your right but he felt it was in the country's interests. I think he bought into the idea that the people by electing him president had given him a mandate to lead. To lead the country effectively, Nixon felt it was he had to cover-up Watergate otherwise his "enemies" would have enough fodder to make his term as president very difficult to get anything done. Of course this thinking overrides the concept of accountability and therefore is flawed.

As for a deal with Ford, maybe it happened but its not like Ford didn't have a motive to pardon Nixon without ever agreeing on a deal. Ford was protecting the "dignity" of the office of president.

Black Swan

mikemac wrote: »

Not to be pedantic but Spiro Agnew was from Maryland which isn't New England

My bad. Good catch. I must of been thinking 13 original colonies. In spite of all his claims to poverty following conviction, in addition to his Ocean City, Maryland residence, Agnew maintained a second residence in the very posh and expensive Rancho Mirage, California, where Bob Hope and Frank Sinatra lived. I guess after his fall from grace, he suffered from what sociologists call "relative deprivation," which looks pretty grand when compared to my starving student budget. This convicted felon certainly didn't have to shop sales or clip coupons to get by.

kenco

Nixons life is a fascinating one. He was certainly not born with a silver spoon in his mouth (strict Quaker upbringing, put himself through college, etc). From reading about him and his times he had the pontential for brilliance (which he did occassionly) but his paranoia and inferiority complex dragged him down and led him to self distruct.

The late Hunter S Thompson recounts a evening in Fear and Loathing on the Campain Trail (I think) where he ended up sharing a limo with Nixon back to some small airport. They mutually despised one another and HST thought he was about to get whacked but they instead had a long, informed and entertaining chat on American Football! Apparently for that short time Nixon was an ordinary guy and maybe was an insight into what he really was like when relaxed.

Thompson quoted about Nixon that he could soar with the eagles but also crawl with the lizards.

Icaras

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

I don't know about calling him a crook its not like he profited from his actions. If by crook you mean he broke the law, yes, your right but he felt it was in the country's interests.

I dont agree with that, between watergate and the famous "list" I think it is clear he was working for his own interests (maybe at a strech working for the interests of the republican party).
I understand (and I could be wrong) the longterm aim of the break ins and phone taps was to ultimatly ruin the democratic party.

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

As for a deal with Ford, maybe it happened but its not like Ford didn't have a motive to pardon Nixon without ever agreeing on a deal. Ford was protecting the "dignity" of the office of president.

Its a valid point but I think Ford letting Nixon away with breaking the law (giving him a full pardon) was more damaging to the office than impeaching an ex-presidant.

kenco

Icaras wrote: »

I dont agree with that, between watergate and the famous "list" I think it is clear he was working for his own interests (maybe at a strech working for the interests of the republican party).
I understand (and I could be wrong) the longterm aim of the break ins and phone taps was to ultimatly ruin the democratic party.



Its a valid point but I think Ford letting Nixon away with breaking the law (giving him a full pardon) was more damaging to the office than impeaching an ex-presidant.

Dont think it will ever be possible to know exactly what was going on in his head and he never really let the mask slip. Watergate had no benefit to him or the GOP as he was a shoe in for '74. I think it was paranoia. He wanted to know what 'they' knew as he regarded an attack on him as an attack on the US.

Anonymous1987

kenco wrote: »

Dont think it will ever be possible to know exactly what was going on in his head and he never really let the mask slip. Watergate had no benefit to him or the GOP as he was a shoe in for '74. I think it was paranoia. He wanted to know what 'they' knew as he regarded an attack on him as an attack on the US.

I would think the same but that's assuming he ordered the break-ins which the record hold's that he didn't. I'd think he certainly had a motive to order the break-ins, his paranoia was probably eating away at him and the more success he had the more he probably felt he would be under siege.

I read somewhere that he had taken acting classes when he was younger and was an excellent poker player so it would seem he could get away with acting innocent.