UCD Students and The Lisbon Treaty

Het-Field

In 2008 I posed the same question : How do UCD students intend to vote on October 2nd ?

Although I have not been a Student in UCD since 2006, I shall advance my preference, and declare myself a Yes Voter !

What about all the UCD Posters here ?

Mr.Nice Guy

I will be voting No and I consider it an absolute disgrace that the original referendum result was not respected.

ANTIFA!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I will be voting No and I consider it an absolute disgrace that the original referendum result was not respected.

Why do you keep saying that? It was respected, if it wasn't respected we wouldn't be voting again on another treaty, the treaty would have been just put through anyway. I've seen on the EU forum posters explain this to you and yet you still persist saying the same thing. Its probably just an anti-EU mindset you have anyway.

Mr.Nice Guy

ANTIFA! wrote: »

Why do you keep saying that? It was respected, if it wasn't respected we wouldn't be voting again on another treaty, the treaty would have been just put through anyway. I've seen on the EU forum posters explain this to you and yet you still persist saying the same thing. Its probably just an anti-EU mindset you have anyway.

If it was respected Jose Manuel Barroso would not have made a speech before the result was even officially declared at Dublin Castle insisting that the Lisbon Treaty's ratification process would continue regardless. We all know full well if the Treaty had been endorsed in the original referendum there would have been no second Treaty, and that if people on the No side had sought one they would have been laughed at and told to hit the road.

If people want to vote Yes that's fair enough but please don't treat the rest of us like mugs. As I've said before, with regards to EU democracy it can be summed up as follows:

"I may not agree with what you have to say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it in which case I'll make you vote again until I do."

If I have an anti-EU mindset it is because I find such contempt for democratic principles to be anathema to my own. For the record, I believe the people will endorse it this time around although I imagine there will be a lower turnout than the first referendum - which I think would be ironic considering the main reason given to us for having to vote on the Nice Treaty a second time was the original referendum's low turnout.

To be perfectly honest after this referendum I feel I'm going to avoid voting again in future, having up to now voted at every possible opportunity since I turned 18. This whole charade has left me feeling very disillusioned with politics in this country and with the attitude shown towards democracy in general.

I always felt voting was important but now the mantra that my vote matters feels a very hollow one to me. It seems a vote only matters when you vote the "right way". That's the impression I now have.

Anyway that's my take on it. I'm sure people will disagree with my views which is fair enough. I'm not interested in going back and forth on this as I've seen in the past these threads tend to get quite bitter and result in numerous rolleyes smilies, patronising jibes and so on. (From both sides)

Part of me is resigned to what's to come and I just want the whole sorry mess to be over and done with frankly.

El Siglo

I'm voting 'Níl/Non/Nein/Nee/No/Nej/Ei/Δεν/Nie', simple reason; 53% of the electorate turned out last time and 53.2% voted No, and as the anti-date rape slogan goes: "No Means No!":D

bluepencilcase

Proudly Voting Yes

errlloyd

I am voting yes for various real reasons, but also because I think the no campaign is a disgrace to our country and it's people. The blatant lies and falsehoods that come from the no camp are something that physically angers me.

Groups like COIR who can literally say whatever they like go ahead and spread rumours about murdering babies and forced conscription, these are lies.

Have any of you ever debated in EU format before? Its ****ing ****, nothing gets done. The current set up is designed for a much smaller group of nations who are all working together. As the EU expands the fact that each nation has a veto will begin to work against Ireland.

If we need to make changes to the open border legislation in the future for example, whats to stop Estonia vetoing every time because its good for their immigration, or maybe we want to change the way money is allocated, whats to stop Croatia just vetoing constantly because they are a net gainer.

And it won't stop either, the EU will just expand, it will always have weak nations which will act selfishly, by doing this we stop one nation holding the EU ransom.

However, what are we doing. Ironically we are holding the very legislation that stops a nation holding the EU ransom, ransom. Ireland are stopping the progress, Ireland are holding back success, and I am ashamed.

Mushy

errlloyd wrote: »

I am voting yes for various real reasons, but also because I think the no campaign is a disgrace to our country and it's people. The blatant lies and falsehoods that come from the no camp are something that physically angers me.

Groups like COIR who can literally say whatever they like go ahead and spread rumours about murdering babies and forced conscription, these are lies.

Have any of you ever debated in EU format before? Its ****ing ****, nothing gets done. The current set up is designed for a much smaller group of nations who are all working together. As the EU expands the fact that each nation has a veto will begin to work against Ireland.

If we need to make changes to the open border legislation in the future for example, whats to stop Estonia vetoing every time because its good for their immigration, or maybe we want to change the way money is allocated, whats to stop Croatia just vetoing constantly because they are a net gainer.

And it won't stop either, the EU will just expand, it will always have weak nations which will act selfishly, by doing this we stop one nation holding the EU ransom.

However, what are we doing. Ironically we are holding the very legislation that stops a nation holding the EU ransom, ransom. Ireland are stopping the progress, Ireland are holding back success, and I am ashamed.

I'm still not 100% sure on which way I'd be voting, but would most likely lean towards the No side. But groups like Coir are ridiculous. Not all No people would feel the same way.

I'd be in agreement a bit more with Mr. Nice Guy and his stance. Just waiting for us to vote Yes on the matter. The finest form of democracy there:rolleyes: One thing going against the Yes side is that the government support it, which may sway voters in voting against what they want.

Mardy Bum

I'd rather have the country ran from Europe than by the current shower we are only isolating ourselves further from Europe by voting No. The only reason we still are not stuck in the dredges of the 80s is because of Europe.

Mushy

Yeah thats why I wouldn't be totally against a Yes victory.

JoeJC

Ill be voting NO on October 2nd. I think its terrible the way the treaty is being rehashed and given to us again. Not an article in the text has changed; we voted no once and should not have to do so again.

If the EU respected democracy and the voice of small nations, it wouldnt patronise us in such an undemocratic way. We have a duty to democracy, to this country and the future of Europe to vote No.

Passive dictatorship (ie. only one way to vote) should not be tolerated by the people of Ireland.

Ajfunky

I have no idea how to vote, because i have no idea what has or hasnt been exempted,agreed upon or made-favourable for us anymore. So many campaigners saying so many different things, its just confusing now!

The one thing ill say is, the yes campaign is EXTREMELY poor. Every time the government speak, its random nice sounding phrases with zero facts. The billboards go as far to say "Its simple, we're stronger in europe". I feel this reflects the governments first yes attempt, basically saying "we read it so you dont have to.".

This could be a seriously deciding factor, because the scaremongering tactics of the no vote. Although im guessing our minimum wage isnt gonna drop to 1.84 and that we wont lose 200 billion in farming, the people who arent arsed researching but will still vote, could definitely be swayed by these posters.

At the same time, i dont think i'll vote, because the government might think my opinion is wrong, and have me change my opinion to suit them. Ridiculous.

dyl10

I am voting yes.

I feel the treaty is pro-europe and I am pro-europe.

Although I 100% agree that asking us to vote again is undemocratic bordering on disgraceful.

If we pass it this time, will the "NO" side be given an option of requesting another referendum so they can put more effort into their campaign the third time around?

ChocolateSauce

I'll be voting yes, and I find it disappointing that young people are more likely to vote no than older people.

Older people frequently have a better grasp of politics.

TheJeanGenie

dyl10 wrote: »

I am voting yes.

I feel the treaty is pro-europe and I am pro-europe.

Although I 100% agree that asking us to vote again is undemocratic bordering on disgraceful.

If we pass it this time, will the "NO" side be given an option of requesting another referendum so they can put more effort into their campaign the third time around?

Well the amount of people who claimed not to know what they were voting for kind of indicated that the people needed to know more about the treaty and a second chance to vote. A lot of people merely voted 'no' because they just didn't know what the vote was for.

Personally I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

TDOie

I'm voting yes because I'm hardcore like that.

JoeJC

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Well the amount of people who claimed not to know what they were voting for kind of indicated that the people needed to know more about the treaty and a second chance to vote. A lot of people merely voted 'no' because they just didn't know what the vote was for.

Are you basing this comment on anything aside from your own private assumptions? Do you have a scrap of evidence to back up your accusation that a large bulk of the Irish people voted only out of ignorance or are you just broadcasting your own subjective beliefs as a matter of fact?

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

Personally I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

How generous it is of the EU to take our referendum, disregard its result so blatantly, and throw the Treaty back at us, subtly threatening dire consequences for our people if we dont give them the result they desire this time around!

The top-dog Europhiles within the EU couldn't give a toss about the voice of small nations like Ireland. I can't understand how you think the EU is doing us a favour by forcing this state to vote on the same Treaty again.

And we're "buggered" without them? That is why we should ratify the Lisbon Treaty? Because if we dont, they'll kick us out? Surely we should be focusing on the Treaty itself, not making up our minds on the basis of what might happen, lest we reject the document. Right?

Pride Fighter

Voting no. Mainly regarding issues such as workers rights and neutrality/military spending. I thought COIR were an absolute disgrace with their posters. Then I saw FF and FG's today. They were spouting such nonsense that a yes will save our economy. Spain voted yes, their economy has tanked worse than ours. More lies by the FF/FG political elites.

Tom65

Yes voter here.

After the last referendum, they had an inquiry into reasons behind the 'No' - top of the list was people not understanding the treaty. Following that, the government got guarantees regarding other concerns. With further explanation on the treaty, along with those guarantees, they've returned for a second referendum. That is democratic.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Spain voted yes, their economy has tanked worse than ours. More lies by the FF/FG political elites.

They don't mean it in some magical, "vote Yes and BAM! - economic recovery!" way. They mean our recovery is more likely as a full fledged part of the EU.

TheJeanGenie

JoeJC wrote: »

Are you basing this comment on anything aside from your own private assumptions? Do you have a scrap of evidence to back up your accusation that a large bulk of the Irish people voted only out of ignorance or are you just broadcasting your own subjective beliefs as a matter of fact?




How generous it is of the EU to take our referendum, disregard its result so blatantly, and throw the Treaty back at us, subtly threatening dire consequences for our people if we dont give them the result they desire this time around!

The top-dog Europhiles within the EU couldn't give a toss about the voice of small nations like Ireland. I can't understand how you think the EU is doing us a favour by forcing this state to vote on the same Treaty again.

And we're "buggered" without them? That is why we should ratify the Lisbon Treaty? Because if we dont, they'll kick us out? Surely we should be focusing on the Treaty itself, not making up our minds on the basis of what might happen, lest we reject the document. Right?

If you want evidence then; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4728353.ece

Time Magazine

I will be voting Yes.

Why? Because within 18 months of the 2007 General Election, it was quite clear that in light of the economic climate that the government had lost the backing of its people. I would have liked a General Election, even though we had elected that Dáil to sit a five year term. Events occurred and people had changed their minds.

That's the crucial thing. People changed their minds. People changed their minds on divorce. People changed their minds on Nice. Similarly I've read quite a few opinions of people who have indicated that they've changed their minds on Lisbon. For many reasons: my parents have done so because I taught them what a Commissioner really is; others because they realise we will lose our Commissioner if we vote No; others because they don't want to chance it because of the economic situation; others because they trust that the legal guarantees mitigate any potential risks; and so on.

Due to the shift in the mood of the nation, I called for the government to resign about six months ago. It would be hypocritical of me to therefore blindly argue that "The people have spoken." I think a far more accurate description of the world is that "The people have changed their minds."

Pride Fighter

Most students on here appear to be voting yes.

It seems that students are more apathetic and right wing than our predecessors. This is probably due to declining education standards in 3rd level, a lack of people studying the liberal arts and a proliferation of Austrian school economics graduates.

Time Magazine

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It seems that students are more apathetic [these days]

This is almost certainly true. Both my parents' parents had "dealings" with British forces in this country, whereas my parents themselves were born during the War and grew up with the serious threat of the Soviet Union. I could hardly be considered politically apathetic, but is it any wonder that I'm more apathetic than they would be? Had I been born in their time, I would be more active. There is a less pressing need these days, thankfully.

and right wing than our predecessors.

Are you flippin' mental?

This is probably due to declining education standards in 3rd level

Lol. Yes, that must be it, you needn't provide a reference either because it couldn't possibly be because we disagree with you.

a lack of people studying the liberal arts and a proliferation of Austrian school economics graduates.

I have yet to meet an Irish economics graduate who's anywhere near the Austrian school. Have you? And you know what Austrians would think of the ECB and Lisbon by extension, right?

Pride Fighter

I like your insights the economist. You are right some of the time and seem a good guy for a right of centre man. Good luck. I'll buy you a pint when the no vote is carried again:)

Time Magazine

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I like your insights the economist. You are right some of the time and seem a good guy for a right of centre man.

Lol, and you seem like a nice lad who'd speak sense if only he were belted over the head a few times with heavy economics textbooks :pac:

Good luck. I'll buy you a pint when the no vote is carried again:)

Drinks will be on me if that happens because I will again be voting Yes but insuring myself by betting on No.

JoeJC

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

If you want evidence then; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4728353.ece

Thank you for not dealing with the vast bulk of my post.

I clicked on the link, ready to except defeat. But then suddenly, in the first paragraph of the text, I saw the term, "government research" and then later on, "government poll".
The last time I checked, the government was one the most notable/notorious of the Yes Campaigners and so any statistics which are drawn up by them in conjunction with a hired research firm are automatically tainted and partial.

That said, if these statistics were accurate, which they are not in my opinion, the fact that the electorate voted out of idiocy would be irrelevant. The basic principal of a referendum is to allow a population to make a conclusive and final decision on an issue, regardless of the reasoning behind that decision.
You yourself indirectly admitted that you would vote Yes on Lisbon 2, not because of the content of the Treaty but because of the possible negative consequences which would result from a second No.

TheJeanGenie wrote: »

I'm delighted the EU are giving us a second vote, we're buggered without them

It seems that you yourself will be voting for all the wrong reasons.

KeyLimePie

some american was like to me tonight...can i ask you a serious question...what's the lisbon treaty.........and i was like...you know what i don't know but it's a good thing

Handsome Bob

I'll put my hands up and admit that I voted No last time however I put that down to the Yes campaign's inability to sell their argument. I have to say that again, I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!" On the other hand the No campaign have put up posters that could strike fear into a lot of people such as "Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%". Now that is most likely scaremongering and taken out of context, but all the same they are effective tactics. Spin and underhanded maybe, but effective all the same.

I plan on reading the actual treaty, but right now I am leaning towards voting yes.

errlloyd

I know you're all going to say what you like about Europe not getting democracy, but after the Czech change of leadership, Ireland are the only nation holding this up. Every single other nation ratified easily, some like Germany almost unanimously.

This referendum is just a formality, its not that our government don't care what we think, its that we don't actually know what is best for us. At the end of the day our government (and the EU) is run by very smart people who do this full time, they're not trying to **** over Ireland, they live here too. Why not just trust them this once.

Think about it, if Lisbon was going to destroy minimum wage would Labour support it? No, if it was going to lose us massive cash for FG support it? No.

In fact if there was any reason not to, surely one political party would take this is an opportunity to oppose FF.

Here, you can read the treaty, its not that hard. The reason no one reads it is because it mainly just sights other treaties, which are a pain to look up.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00014.en07.pdf

errlloyd

LZ5by5 wrote: »

"Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%".

Actually that's true.

Our proportional representation will be around 20 times lower than Germany's, because their popular is 20 times bigger than ours. This is in the Parliament, in the commission however we still have the exact same representation as everyone else.

LZ5by5

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!"

Voting No. We're still going to be in the EU even if we vote No...we're just saying that the Lisbon Treaty isn't good enough - and that the so-called guarantees are still not part of the Treaty itself!

The lazy feel-good posters are just the rotting cherry on top.