UCD Students and The Lisbon Treaty

errlloyd

You guys think this Europe is the same as the one that was so good to you? Its not, its very different. The treaty makes this Europe workable.

Chinafoot

Voting Yes.

errlloyd

I'm mildly embarrassed, the one massive clue as to why voting No is a bad idea is clear. Its what Sinn Fein want...

Browney7

Voting yes.

Ajfunky

I just cant understand, if the treaty is so great, Why would there be those who oppose it? (this isnt rhetoric i honestly want ta know )

And someone mentioned the new legal guarantees earlier.. the fact is they arent legally binding in my understanding of them. They arent contracts, we were just *told* that these things (tax meddling, military neutrality etc.) wouldnt happen. Methinks that i'd rather have those in writing, than have the eu one day change their mind.

Am still undecided!

geuro

Ajfunky wrote: »

I just cant understand, if the treaty is so great, Why would there be those who oppose it? (this isnt rhetoric i honestly want ta know )

And someone mentioned the new legal guarantees earlier.. the fact is they arent legally binding in my understanding of them. They arent contracts, we were just *told* that these things (tax meddling, military neutrality etc.) wouldnt happen. Methinks that i'd rather have those in writing, than have the eu one day change their mind.

Am still undecided!

Direct taxation is outside the set of competencies of the EU. Regardless of whether guarantees are legal or not, this is in the treaty, as it was the first time round.

To all the "I'm voting no because we already said no and no means no" crowd - have a look at what you are voting on and make up your mind. We had two referenda on divorce too you know - was this a mistake?

errlloyd

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

Pride Fighter

errlloyd wrote: »

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

While I'd agree with you regarding tax, the treaty asks every member state to increase military spending and appoints an EU foreign affairs minister. Our neutrality is under threat with this treaty.

Fad

I will, without a shadow of a doubt, vote yes.

graduate

I reckon the CAO should abolish the change of mind procedure, as No should be No.

If you apply to a UCD programme and you aren't sure about something and you ring up and get it explained to you, it is it unreasonable to then change your mind even if UCD has not reprinted its entire documentation to meet your individual query?

Fad

graduate wrote: »

I reckon the CAO should abolish the change of mind procedure, as No should be No.

If you apply to a UCD programme and you aren't sure about something and you ring up and get it explained to you, it is it unreasonable to then change your mind even if UCD has not reprinted its entire documentation to meet your individual query?

Yes.....

Ajfunky

errlloyd wrote: »

Funky the reason they didn't have to make any changes to the treaty was because all of those things are already in it ^^. All the guarantees did was remind us of that fact.

Our Military Neutrality and taxation are not under threat at all.

Here man I know you, you're smarter than this. All the treaty really does is try cut out some of the EU bureaucracy.

If these were things that were in it already, why didnt the government say that in the first place?! i watched quite a ****load of questions and answers before the lisbon 1,and everytime it was brought up the FF candidadte would say," we are in talks with the Eu about this and it will be solved before voting" more or less.

I jus really dont understand how people could be so against something which is all positive. What do the negative side gain from telling us lies? (once again not rhetoric, i really really want to know!)

RandomName2

I'm definately voting No.

Again.

More definate than the last time.

There are so many arguments against the treaty than I have time or strength to recite.

Oh hold on! We'll be forced out of Europe if we vote no! Or maybe this is a lie... our leaders wouldn't possibly lie to us, would they, surely? :rolleyes:

I won't be overly happy if I see a 'Generation Yes' stall in the Freshers' Tent :mad:

Jev/N

RandomName2 wrote: »

I
Oh hold on! We'll be forced out of Europe if we vote no! Or maybe this is a lie... our leaders wouldn't possibly lie to us, would they, surely? :rolleyes:

And the no supporters wouldn't run a campaign of lies and half-truths would they?!

Jev/N

Just said I'd post this also:

Mr.Nice Guy

I've seen some of the signs in town from the Yes campaign the past few days. Many are along the lines of...

"We belong in Europe - vote Yes."

This of course is implying that if we vote No we will be out of Europe which is blatantly dishonest. Puts an end to that myth about the No side being the only ones spreading untruths. Both sides are guilty of it.

I also find it most amusing to hear on the news Brian Cowen telling us everything is going to be OK because he has renegotiated a new deal. Of course prior to the first referendum we were told there would be NO renegotiation and that this was it Ireland - take it or leave it. That was another lie.

To the person going on about how this Treaty makes the EU workable - yes indeed it will be much more workable - at our expense. Many times in the next few weeks you'll hear the word "streamlining" being banded about which is a polite and snappy way of saying smaller nations like Ireland will have our influence diminished, so France and Germany can claim a tighter control of the EU's direction.

Really makes me wonder why I'm about to embark on a History MA when it's becoming increasingly clear Ireland's historic story has been an ultimately pointless one. Spending all that time and energy trying to get out of a Union that won't listen to us, only to go and join another Union which won't listen to us. God Save Ireland is right.

Anonymous1987

Its a yes vote from the new UCD student.

The way I see it the no camp talked up the Lisbon treaty like it was a revolutionary treaty introducing militarisation and abortion whereas in reality its just a bit of housekeeping to cut bureacracy and improve decision making.

The yes camp seem to have turned it into a vote on the EU rather than the treaty itself probably because the reasons for voting yes aren't exactly breathtaking and at time of crisis we can look back on what the EU has done for us.

Both sides are guilty of playing on people's fears, the yes side playing on the economic consequences (the EU will not kick us out of the Euro) and the no camp on fears of a tyrannical EU answerable to no-one (if thats the case its already too late).

Best advice is to ignore both of them and try and read an unbiased independent source or even give a quick read on wikipedia (far more trustworthy than either side) and make your mind up on that.

So why vote yes? Its progress at a snails pace.

Pride Fighter

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I've seen some of the signs in town from the Yes campaign the past few days. Many are along the lines of...

"We belong in Europe - vote Yes."

This of course is implying that if we vote No we will be out of Europe which is blatantly dishonest. Puts an end to that myth about the No side being the only ones spreading untruths. Both sides are guilty of it.

I also find it most amusing to hear on the news Brian Cowen telling us everything is going to be OK because he has renegotiated a new deal. Of course prior to the first referendum we were told there would be NO renegotiation and that this was it Ireland - take it or leave it. That was another lie.

To the person going on about how this Treaty makes the EU workable - yes indeed it will be much more workable - at our expense. Many times in the next few weeks you'll hear the word "streamlining" being banded about which is a polite and snappy way of saying smaller nations like Ireland will have our influence diminished, so France and Germany can claim a tighter control of the EU's direction.

Really makes me wonder why I'm about to embark on a History MA when it's becoming increasingly clear Ireland's historic story has been an ultimately pointless one. Spending all that time and energy trying to get out of a Union that won't listen to us, only to go and join another Union which won't listen to us. God Save Ireland is right.

Dont forget voting yes is the miracle cure to fix our economy. Vote yes for jobs, vote yes for recovery. These are the lies peddled by FF and FG. Spain, Portugal and Greece have voted yes. Their economies have tanked worse than ours. Voting no will be a better bet to save our economy. That way the FF government will fall, a more competent government will take its place and Lisbon will have to re-negotiated. Re- negotiated to favour the workers and people of Europe, not the big businesses and big nation states.

errlloyd

Pride Fighter, do you actually understand how the EU works.

Yes those countries have voted yes, but they haven't reaped any benefits because nothing can happen until we vote yes. However if you want to argue that point, Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

Many of you haven't a clue what this whole thing is about, so let me say this.

Hundreds of MEPs and politicians in many countries all across Europe have worked for hours and hours on one document that we can all agree on which will make Europe a better place for everyone. Politicians everywhere from Germany, to the UK to Slovakia think this is an excellent idea, so much so that they have endorsed it almost unanimously.

The only other opposition was the Czech political party that got kicked out of office earlier this year.

This is not a decision on what to eat for lunch. This effects 550 million people, and it all comes down to us, a nation of little more than 4 million. If your not sure, then don't ****ing vote, because your not capable of making such a mammoth choice.

If your going to vote no you better have a good ****ing reason, forget about our government and forget about the last referendum. THIS IS NOT A DOMESTIC ISSUE. Cowen may as well be Sarkozy or Berlisconi for all we ****ing care.

Anyone here who thinks its a good idea to vote no, look at the pile of ****ing jokers who are campaigning for the no vote. Coir is an anti abortion, anti divorce child murder joke organisation, who thinks the whole world should be run by the ****ing Nazi in Rome some call the Pope. Sinn Fein are a pathetic excuse for a political party run by a man who needed Ted Kennedy's help getting into the USA because he is on a terrorist watch list. And Libertas is a CIA funded arms company who wants us to vote no because its more profitable for them.

Stop pissing around and think about the wider world for once in this discussion. This is not about Ireland, its not about you or me. There are an awful lot of people effected by this vote. I was in France when we failed the last one, and I read the papers. They were annoyed, this treaty has cost literally millions at this stage, this referendum is just a formality so please sort the dam thing out.

And last time, if your unsure DON'T VOTE.

Pride Fighter

errlloyd wrote: »

Pride Fighter, do you actually understand how the EU works.

Yes those countries have voted yes, but they haven't reaped any benefits because nothing can happen until we vote yes. However if you want to argue that point, Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

Many of you haven't a clue what this whole thing is about, so let me say this.

Hundreds of MEPs and politicians in many countries all across Europe have worked for hours and hours on one document that we can all agree on which will make Europe a better place for everyone. Politicians everywhere from Germany, to the UK to Slovakia think this is an excellent idea, so much so that they have endorsed it almost unanimously.

The only other opposition was the Czech political party that got kicked out of office earlier this year.

This is not a decision on what to eat for lunch. This effects 550 million people, and it all comes down to us, a nation of little more than 4 million. If your not sure, then don't ****ing vote, because your not capable of making such a mammoth choice.

If your going to vote no you better have a good ****ing reason, forget about our government and forget about the last referendum. THIS IS NOT A DOMESTIC ISSUE. Cowen may as well be Sarkozy or Berlisconi for all we ****ing care.

Anyone here who thinks its a good idea to vote no, look at the pile of ****ing jokers who are campaigning for the no vote. Coir is an anti abortion, anti divorce child murder joke organisation, who thinks the whole world should be run by the ****ing Nazi in Rome some call the Pope. Sinn Fein are a pathetic excuse for a political party run by a man who needed Ted Kennedy's help getting into the USA because he is on a terrorist watch list. And Libertas is a CIA funded arms company who wants us to vote no because its more profitable for them.

Stop pissing around and think about the wider world for once in this discussion. This is not about Ireland, its not about you or me. There are an awful lot of people effected by this vote. I was in France when we failed the last one, and I read the papers. They were annoyed, this treaty has cost literally millions at this stage, this referendum is just a formality so please sort the dam thing out.

And last time, if your unsure DON'T VOTE.

Typical shouting yes voter. I know why I am voting no. The Lisbon treaty is a neo-liberal assault on workers rights and neutrality. Far right parties like the CDU in Germany and FF and FG here support Lisbon. Thats reason enough to vote no too.

Anonymous1987

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Typical shouting yes voter. I know why I am voting no. The Lisbon treaty is a neo-liberal assault on workers rights and neutrality. Far right parties like the CDU in Germany and FF and FG here support Lisbon. Thats reason enough to vote no too.

The neutrality issue was raised by member states and has been addressed guaranteeing member states control of their own foreign policy, the role of the proposed EU foreign minister would only be to give suggestions on defence and security missions with no real power. On defence, unanimous agreement from all member states will be required for a common defence which would require a referendum here as far as I know.

What makes you think the Lisbon treaty attacks workers rights?

Please don't make your decision on Lisbon because of the supporters, they are bringing down the yes camp. There is ridiculous propaganda coming from both sides right and left, yes and no camps.

Pride Fighter

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

What makes you think the Lisbon treaty attacks workers rights?

The European Court of Justice will supersede any crumbs that the Lisbon treaty gives workers. The Viking and Laval cases in particular will screw over Irish workers.

RandomName2

errlloyd wrote: »

Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

[...]

Hundreds of MEPs and politicians in many countries all across Europe have worked for hours and hours on one document that we can all agree on which will make Europe a better place for everyone. Politicians everywhere from Germany, to the UK to Slovakia think this is an excellent idea, so much so that they have endorsed it almost unanimously.

[...]
This effects 550 million people, and it all comes down to us, a nation of little more than 4 million. [...]

Anyone here who thinks its a good idea to vote no, look at the pile of ****ing jokers who are campaigning for the no vote. Coir is an anti abortion, anti divorce child murder joke organisation, who thinks the whole world should be run by the ****ing Nazi in Rome some call the Pope. Sinn Fein are a pathetic excuse for a political party run by a man who needed Ted Kennedy's help getting into the USA because he is on a terrorist watch list. And Libertas is a CIA funded arms company who wants us to vote no because its more profitable for them.

Stop pissing around and think about the wider world for once in this discussion. This is not about Ireland, its not about you or me. There are an awful lot of people effected by this vote. I was in France when we failed the last one, and I read the papers. They were annoyed, this treaty has cost literally millions at this stage, this referendum is just a formality so please sort the dam thing out.

And last time, if your unsure DON'T VOTE.

'They' were annoyed? Who? The French public?

They voted against it.

So did the Dutch.

Woops! Can't mention that! That was the Constitution Treaty (which included a proviso on the EU flag that was dropped in Lisbon)...

But that does highlight something...

What is it now... let's see... oh yes:

760027 individual votes cast in favour of Lisbon across Europe and 863471 against (so far).

This is including those wonderful MEPs you mentioned. But, perhaps you are right. Maybe the vote of a French or German MEP is more important than a member of the Irish electorate.

But I am not so sure. Coir can say what they like. They aren't politicans. I don't pay for them. They aren't meant to know what they are talking about. FF is supposed to know what they are talking about. Trying to spin this referendum as a referendum on EU membership means they either don't know what they are talking about, or they are deliberately lieing. But, sure, Cowan didn't bother reading the Lisbon Treaty (in truth, it is very hard going ).

As for the treaty itself....

There are some small good things about it (greater clarity in decision making and less red tape). But it gives the organisation of the EU more competancies at the expense of the European electorates. I actually don't trust the EU in terms of taking more control of areas such as Foreign Policy, Immigration, and Energy. Mind you, that's my opinion. But it has been my experience that those who help run the EU (like FF) have played fast and loose with the truth. Might be an idea not to give them more rope in that case...

Edit: Sorry, misunderstood you about 'Failed the last time', thought you were genuinely talking about the EU Constitution. But in terms of Lisbon I we didn't fail. We are a part of Europe. If we say 'no', Europe says no. It is the basis of unaminous decision making in the EU.

Anonymous1987

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The European Court of Justice will supersede any crumbs that the Lisbon treaty gives workers. The Viking and Laval cases in particular will screw over Irish workers.

Fair point about erosion of workers rights but thats not really the Lisbon treaty though its a ruling of the ECJ.

Donald-Duck

First time I saw that 1.84 sign I had to do a double take, didn;t think they could come up with more creative lies than last time but they managed.

errlloyd

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Typical shouting yes voter. I know why I am voting no. The Lisbon treaty is a neo-liberal assault on workers rights and neutrality. Far right parties like the CDU in Germany and FF and FG here support Lisbon. Thats reason enough to vote no too.

Lol if you think that, then why are labour supporting it too?

Pride Fighter

Donald-Duck wrote: »

First time I saw that 1.84 sign I had to do a double take, didn;t think they could come up with more creative lies than last time but they managed.

Yes Coir are lying, so are FF and FG linking economic recovery and job creation with a yes vote.

Donald-Duck

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Yes Coir are lying, so are FF and FG linking economic recovery and job creation with a yes vote.

I didn't say they weren't.

Mr.Nice Guy

errlloyd wrote: »

Pride Fighter, do you actually understand how the EU works.

Yes those countries have voted yes, but they haven't reaped any benefits because nothing can happen until we vote yes. However if you want to argue that point, Germany and France were the first two countries to vote yes, and they are the first two out of recession.

Of course by Germany and France "voting Yes" what you really mean is their parliaments voted yes to it. Let's not forget with regards to France, the French people when given a vote on the EU Constitution (which is what the Lisbon Treaty really is but without the other's tweaks) voted AGAINST it and the French government didn't even bother putting it to their people again, instead re-packaging it and rushing it through to considerable anger in their country.

A similar story happened in the UK where opinion polls showed in the wake of the Irish rejection that most British people wanted a say of their own on the Treaty and that, if given a referendum, would likewise vote No. The British response was to do like France - endorse it via parliament so as to avoid another rejection.

Do you think then that the EU are a good example of democracy? The irony is the Lisbon Treaty states the EU is committed to democratic principles but omits the fact that this is only when things fit their agenda.

This is the institution you so heartily endorse and yet you wonder why not all Irish people share your enthusiasm? See past the spin.

errlloyd

I am happy to let people I vote into power make decisions for me. So are the French and the British.

I'd rather Cowen made the decision then an uneducated rabble who genuinely believe if we put this through minimum wage will be 1:80.

Why don't you trust the proffessionals? Why don't you trust the people who's job it is to make sure these are good for us? Why the hell do you trust Sinn Fein over everyone else?