Generation Yes Fights Back

Odilon Redon

skelliser wrote: »

...I was thrown by the acronym "sipo" which i never heard before, im well aware of the standards in public office and doublely aware of our politicans so called high standards!
...

That would be the Standards in Public Office Commission that you're well aware of! http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thanks, I voted no the last time and decided to make my mind up this time all over again and I keep getting cought between two sides that are saying opposite things and they both sound really well informed about them and one saying that there will be changes to abortion, drug laws and prostitution laws making them all legal and available and the other side saying exactly the opposite. im not a laywer, and these documents are not easy to argue about.

In addition to the existing protective protocol cited by Stark, we have also the new Guarantees, the first of which reads:

Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

That protects all of the following:

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN Article 40.3.

1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

2° The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.

3° The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

and

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN Article 41

1. 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2. 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

3. 1° The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.

2° A Court designated by law may grant a dissolution of marriage where, but only where, it is satisfied that *

i. at the date of the institution of the proceedings, the spouses have lived apart from one another for a period of, or periods amounting to, at least four years during the five years,

ii. there is no reasonable prospect of a reconciliation between the spouses,

iii. such provision as the Court considers proper having regard to the circumstances exists or will be made for the spouses, any children of either or both of them and any other person prescribed by law, and

iv. any further conditions prescribed by law are complied with.

3° No person whose marriage has been dissolved under the civil law of any other State but is a subsisting valid marriage under the law for the time being in force within the jurisdiction of the Government and Parliament established by this Constitution shall be capable of contracting a valid marriage within that jurisdiction during the lifetime of the other party to the marriage so dissolved.

Education

Article 42

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3. 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

5. In exceptional cases, where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children, the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

and

BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN Article 44.2

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. 5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Wheely

netron wrote: »

thank you - at least you are being honest. appreciate it.


can you now tell us the following questions:

1. what is your political affiliation

2. what is your parents political affiliation

3. are you a member of Common Purpose.


straight answers please.

1.FG/labour usually tho not blindly
2.Not sure
3. No

Hadn't heard of Common Purpose til you posted it, I'd love to know how you link the two, and don't tell me to read the link I did. Explain it here on this board the same place you made your ludicrous allegation.

I answered your request, you answer mine.

patrickthomas

Scofflaw wrote: »

In addition to the existing protective protocol cited by Stark, we have also the new Guarantees, the first of which reads:



That protects all of the following:

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thanks Scofflaw, am I right in thinking that abortion is decided by our own government and not the eu?

Wheely

Cantab. wrote: »

Generation Yes is an umbrella organisation of Ogra FF.

This isn't true. You state it as if it's a fact here not an opinion. That makes you a liar. I know it's in breach of the charter to call another poster a liar, but hopefully as in defamation law the defence of justification will save me from a ban. Because that post is quite simply a lie.

Wheely

patrickthomas wrote: »

Have you read the treaty, are those things 100% garunteed not to come into Ireland within a few years of the treaty?

I have read the Treaty and provision is made for NONE of the things your friend mentioned. Of course no-one can guarantee these things won't come into Ireland in over years, anything can happen.

What I can guarantee you is whether or not they do, as unlikely as that may be, the Lisbon Treaty will have nothing to do with it.

The Lisbon Treaty has NOTHING to do with abortion, drug legalization or prostitution. You're friend is either lying or misinformed.

panda100

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thanks Scofflaw, am I right in thinking that abortion is decided by our own government and not the eu?

Legalising abortion will require a change in our constitution which can only be done through a referendum voted on by The Irish people. So no, Abortion will not be decided on by our own government but by the Irish people themselves. Lisbon will have absolutely no affect on this.

Wheely

Cantab. wrote: »

Hit a nerve did I? I know you don't like the fact that at least 3 members (who I know personally) are Ogra FF members.

Yes your lies hit a nerve. I know six YFG members (personally) who are members. Point?

Wheely

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thanks Scofflaw, am I right in thinking that abortion is decided by our own government and not the eu?

That's 100% the case. Lisbon or no Lisbon.

patrickthomas

I have done that trip to england and back and I think it is a complete disgrace that we do not have abortion in this country. I had hoped that the eu would bring in sensible things that would change this country from the backward place it is and it is rapidly moving even more backwards. I would be more than happy to see this country run from brussels, at least it would br run properly. what on earth is the point of this treaty if nothing changes, i am not angry, i am really saddened at how this country has turned out. if i thought coir were telling the truth i would definately vote yes, i hate being on the same side as them and sinn fein. but this seems just like the same old same old from a government that has way too much power and only looks after itself. it is still like 1950s here.

Wheely

patrickthomas wrote: »

I have done that trip to england and back and I think it is a complete disgrace that we do not have abortion in this country. I had hoped that the eu would bring in sensible things that would change this country from the backward place it is and it is rapidly moving even more backwards. I would be more than happy to see this country run from brussels, at least it would br run properly. what on earth is the point of this treaty if nothing changes, i am not angry, i am really saddened at how this country has turned out. if i thought coir were telling the truth i would definately vote yes, i hate being on the same side as them and sinn fein. but this seems just like the same old same old from a government that has way too much power and only looks after itself. it is still like 1950s here.

I'm sorry I don't follow. You're voting no because the Lisbon Treaty doesn't go far enough on progressive social issues for you? It doesn't bring in abortion/legalise drugs etc...?

That's simply not within the EU's remit, it's primarily an economic union and as such has benefited Ireland greatly over the years.

If you want to change the laws on abortion lobby your TD's start a pressure group, hell start your own political party.

I can't follow your logic how the EU's failure to do soething it never promised to do in the first place has "forced" you onto the same side of the political fence as SF and Coir? Please explain?

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thanks Scofflaw, am I right in thinking that abortion is decided by our own government and not the eu?

By us, really, than our government, but not by the EU under Nice, Lisbon, or any EU treaty likely to get written. We don't even have the strictest abortion laws in the EU (that's Malta).


cordially,
Scofflaw

Stark

patrickthomas wrote: »

I have done that trip to england and back and I think it is a complete disgrace that we do not have abortion in this country. I had hoped that the eu would bring in sensible things that would change this country from the backward place it is and it is rapidly moving even more backwards. I would be more than happy to see this country run from brussels, at least it would br run properly. what on earth is the point of this treaty if nothing changes, i am not angry, i am really saddened at how this country has turned out. if i thought coir were telling the truth i would definately vote yes, i hate being on the same side as them and sinn fein. but this seems just like the same old same old from a government that has way too much power and only looks after itself. it is still like 1950s here.

Lisbon gives legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights. That's reason enough to vote Yes if you care about social progression, not just for us, but for the newly acceded states. If it wasn't for the EU, homosexuality would still be illegal in Ireland for one thing.

Scofflaw

Stark wrote: »

Lisbon gives legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights. That's reason enough to vote Yes if you care about social progression, not just for us, but for the newly acceded states. If it wasn't for the EU, homosexuality would still be illegal in Ireland for one thing.

I'm afraid that wasn't the EU - that was a result of the European Court of Human Rights' decision in Norris v. Ireland. The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe, not the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

patrickthomas

Wheely wrote: »

I'm sorry I don't follow. You're voting no because the Lisbon Treaty doesn't go far enough on progressive social issues for you? It doesn't bring in abortion/legalise drugs etc...?

That's simply not within the EU's remit, it's primarily an economic union and as such has benefited Ireland greatly over the years.

If you want to change the laws on abortion lobby your TD's start a pressure group, hell start your own political party.

I can't follow your logic how the EU's failure to do soething it never promised to do in the first place has "forced" you onto the same side of the political fence as SF and Coir? Please explain?

The economic side has not benifited me or anyone i know except for a few farmers and builders, and it seems to have made a whole lot of money for the tds ect. we were told when they started the eu that we would be able to buy cars or wine as cheap as abroad, it was a all lies, we have a crappy health system, i am on so called broadband that has difficulty loading this page, i am living in the 80's again, there has been no progress worth talking about in this country, a few buildings and roads and the rest are as bad as they were in the 70s.

I am not giving out to you, i am just telling it as it is, i been through recession before and seeing it a second time is like a bad dream with the usual false talk from the td's

almost everyone in politics in ireland are there for the same reason everyone else is and that is to get the idiots like me to vote them in and then they look after themselves. we had a fibre optic system here in the 70s that was one of the most advanced in the eu, now i have dial-up speeds and a business that relies on the internet. i could go on but there is really no point. i would like to see all of the power taken from the tds and be ruled from brussels honestly, that is how disappointed i am. i worked real hard all my life, i think nothing of a 16 hour day, not much time to be chasing after tds to see if there doing their job, well they were not for a long time........

PHB

Cantab. wrote: »

Generation Yes is an umbrella organisation of Ogra FF.

Cantab. wrote: »

Hit a nerve did I? I know you don't like the fact that at least 3 members (who I know personally) are Ogra FF members.

Wow, that's an amazingly stupid argument.

I know 3 people, personally, who use boards.ie, who are members of Generation Yes.

Therefore, Generation Yes is an umbrella organisation of boards.ie?

No wait...

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

The economic side has not benifited me or anyone i know except for a few farmers and builders, and it seems to have made a whole lot of money for the tds ect. we were told when they started the eu that we would be able to buy cars or wine as cheap as abroad, it was a all lies, we have a crappy health system, i am on so called broadband that has difficulty loading this page, i am living in the 80's again, there has been no progress worth talking about in this country, a few buildings and roads and the rest are as bad as they were in the 70s.

I am not giving out to you, i am just telling it as it is, i been through recession before and seeing it a second time is like a bad dream with the usual false talk from the td's

almost everyone in politics in ireland are there for the same reason everyone else is and that is to get the idiots like me to vote them in and then they look after themselves. we had a fibre optic system here in the 70s that was one of the most advanced in the eu, now i have dial-up speeds and a business that relies on the internet. i could go on but there is really no point. i would like to see all of the power taken from the tds and be ruled from brussels honestly, that is how disappointed i am. i worked real hard all my life, i think nothing of a 16 hour day, not much time to be chasing after tds to see if there doing their job, well they were not for a long time........

We were on track to really make something of the country in the Nineties, and then we elected Fianna Fáil. It's a bit hard to pin that on the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Stark

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm afraid that wasn't the EU - that was a result of the European Court of Human Rights' decision in Norris v. Ireland. The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe, not the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I stand corrected. Seems I was confusing the EU with the Council of Europe. Cheers.

anonymous_joe

patrickthomas wrote: »

The economic side has not benifited me or anyone i know except for a few farmers and builders, and it seems to have made a whole lot of money for the tds ect. we were told when they started the eu that we would be able to buy cars or wine as cheap as abroad, it was a all lies, we have a crappy health system, i am on so called broadband that has difficulty loading this page, i am living in the 80's again, there has been no progress worth talking about in this country, a few buildings and roads and the rest are as bad as they were in the 70s.

I am not giving out to you, i am just telling it as it is, i been through recession before and seeing it a second time is like a bad dream with the usual false talk from the td's

almost everyone in politics in ireland are there for the same reason everyone else is and that is to get the idiots like me to vote them in and then they look after themselves. we had a fibre optic system here in the 70s that was one of the most advanced in the eu, now i have dial-up speeds and a business that relies on the internet. i could go on but there is really no point. i would like to see all of the power taken from the tds and be ruled from brussels honestly, that is how disappointed i am. i worked real hard all my life, i think nothing of a 16 hour day, not much time to be chasing after tds to see if there doing their job, well they were not for a long time........

That's not the EU's fault...

I know a few Generation Yes members and none of 'em are anything approximating FFers.

patrickthomas

Scofflaw wrote: »

We were on track to really make something of the country in the Nineties, and then we elected Fianna Fáil. It's a bit hard to pin that on the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think the rot was there before the 90s, i not a political person Scofflaw but in my simple view this country was awash with cash for ten years and it was in a very few hands. this recession is going to last and i know from the last one that it has not even gotten anything as bad as it will. the thing is the generation i grew up with were tryers and try really hard we did, we believed in this country. somehow we or they got something very wrong. if the vote is a no vote again the government will blame us the people for voting no, all belief in what the government says is gone, and it does not matter what party. we need change and i do not believe there will be riots on the streets, we are way too passive a people for that, maybe that is a fault i don't know. i do not know why there is such a push on us to vote yes, i do not trust what our leaders tell us, they have lied time after time.

patrickthomas

anonymous_joe wrote: »

That's not the EU's fault...

I know a few Generation Yes members and none of 'em are anything approximating FFers.

all i know about generationyes is what i saw on their web-site and what you have told me here. what i don't get is what changes this treaty will bring that you are so excited about that you would orgainise yourselves, al that time and energy. what is it?

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

I think the rot was there before the 90s, i not a political person Scofflaw but in my simple view this country was awash with cash for ten years and it was in a very few hands.

I wouldn't disagree. The Nineties represented the start of the cleanup of what had been, from my experiences of the Eighties, endemic low-grade corruption, most of it planning-related (but remember that if you needed a telephone connections, you could wait months, or you could pay a P & T engineer to do a nixer). As a country, we're cleaner than we were - but we never changed the fact that the people at the top had come up through a rotten system, and had the power to scratch the backs of those who scratched theirs. We never changed our attitude to land.

patrickthomas wrote: »

this recession is going to last and i know from the last one that it has not even gotten anything as bad as it will.

True. It's possible that the rest of Europe pulling up out of recession may allow us to lift ourselves up too, but I'd say we're still at the stage of it having to get worse before it gets better.

patrickthomas wrote: »

the thing is the generation i grew up with were tryers and try really hard we did, we believed in this country. somehow we or they got something very wrong. if the vote is a no vote again the government will blame us the people for voting no, all belief in what the government says is gone, and it does not matter what party. we need change and i do not believe there will be riots on the streets, we are way too passive a people for that, maybe that is a fault i don't know. i do not know why there is such a push on us to vote yes, i do not trust what our leaders tell us, they have lied time after time.

Well, you need to decide things for yourself. I've educated myself on this treaty, and I've done it only in the time available, and that's the basis on which I'm voting yes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

patrickthomas

Scofflaw wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree. The Nineties represented the start of the cleanup of what had been, from my experiences of the Eighties, endemic low-grade corruption, most of it planning-related (but remember that if you needed a telephone connections, you could wait months, or you could pay a P & T engineer to do a nixer). As a country, we're cleaner than we were - but we never changed the fact that the people at the top had come up through a rotten system, and had the power to scratch the backs of those who scratched theirs. We never changed our attitude to land.



True. It's possible that the rest of Europe pulling up out of recession may allow us to lift ourselves up too, but I'd say we're still at the stage of it having to get worse before it gets better.



Well, you need to decide things for yourself. I've educated myself on this treaty, and I've done it only in the time available, and that's the basis on which I'm voting yes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Why do you think that this treaty is worth voting for?

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

Why do you think that this treaty is worth voting for?

Primarily, because of the huge increase in democratic oversight of the actions of the governments in the EU by the European Parliament. Secondarily, because of the huge increase in the rights of citizens to challenge EU legislation by virtue of making the Charter of Fundamental Rights enforceable. Third (in my book) the commitment to fighting climate change. Fourth, the ability of national parliaments to challenge EU legislation, and their greater access to information on proposed legislation. Fifth, the Citizens' Initiatives. After that, transparency measures, the simplification of the EU by the dissolution of the pillar structure, and the general clarification of the EU's aims, intentions, limits and values.

The things I think are most important bar climate change are, I suppose, connected by all allowing people - ordinary people - to stop or change EU legislation and actions. That's because, to put it very simply, I like the way the EU works, but I don't always like what the governments of Europe use it to produce. I want to know about proposed EU legislation, I want the people I have access to (TDs, Senators, and MEPs) to have more input to that legislation, I want the right to challenge that legislation where it impacts my rights - or to support others who do so - and I want it clear who does what, and with which, and to whom.

Does that make sense?

cordially,
Scofflaw

patrickthomas

Scofflaw wrote: »

Primarily, because of the huge increase in democratic oversight of the actions of the governments in the EU by the European Parliament. Secondarily, because of the huge increase in the rights of citizens to challenge EU legislation by virtue of making the Charter of Fundamental Rights enforceable. Third (in my book) the commitment to fighting climate change. Fourth, the ability of national parliaments to challenge EU legislation, and their greater access to information on proposed legislation. Fifth, the Citizens' Initiatives. After that, transparency measures, the simplification of the EU by the dissolution of the pillar structure, and the general clarification of the EU's aims, intentions, limits and values.

The things I think are most important bar climate change are, I suppose, connected by all allowing people - ordinary people - to stop or change EU legislation and actions. That's because, to put it very simply, I like the way the EU works, but I don't always like what the governments of Europe use it to produce. I want to know about proposed EU legislation, I want the people I have access to (TDs, Senators, and MEPs) to have more input to that legislation, I want the right to challenge that legislation where it impacts my rights - or to support others who do so - and I want it clear who does what, and with which, and to whom.

Does that make sense?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I lost internet connection there, Climate change, sorry, not convinced about this at all, way to many loose ends there to be any way convincing, beginning to look like a scam. I remember the ice age, acid rain, the ozone layer and probably have forgotten some.

I will look carefully at what you have taken the time to write, as far as i have seen about 80% of our legislation comes from the eu, it is the other 20% we mess up all on our own. I have always been very pro eu, but am not convinced that there is anything that needs to be fixed.

there is a massive amount of information to take in. i think of finland that spent 20 years educating it's people about nuclear energy before asking them to make a decision about it, which they chose to go with. i dream of a system like this. i know cowen lied to us but so did Sarkozy. i also know that the eu is not without corruption either.

i feel like a grain of sand looking up at a pyramid of power and from the bottom to the very top here in this tiny little part is corrupt, i do wonder if it keeps going right to the very top. i am nervous about sarkozy forming an army, i fear that we will start to play war games like our powerful neighbours for reasons i cannot comphrend. i worry that history will repeat itself.

i also do not want to destroy your dreams nor your idealism neither.

Thank you for conversing with me, i will drop in again. goodnight pt

Scofflaw

patrickthomas wrote: »

I lost internet connection there, Climate change, sorry, not convinced about this at all, way to many loose ends there to be any way convincing, beginning to look like a scam. I remember the ice age, acid rain, the ozone layer and probably have forgotten some.

Er, yes, and I have to point out that the 'ice age' (which I remember too) was a geological prediction, not a climatic one, while acid rain and the ozone hole were quite real and were addressed by relevant action. I won't argue climate change here, but the science is watertight.

patrickthomas wrote: »

I will look carefully at what you have taken the time to write, as far as i have seen about 80% of our legislation comes from the eu, it is the other 20% we mess up all on our own. I have always been very pro eu, but am not convinced that there is anything that needs to be fixed.

The proportions are the other way round, which might explain how we managed to make quite such a mess. And the democratic deficit needs to be fixed. It needed to be fixed at Nice, but Nice was rushed to bring the Eastern European states on board before Putin gathered them back into Russian orbit.

patrickthomas wrote: »

there is a massive amount of information to take in. i think of finland that spent 20 years educating it's people about nuclear energy before asking them to make a decision about it, which they chose to go with. i dream of a system like this. i know cowen lied to us but so did Sarkozy. i also know that the eu is not without corruption either.

i feel like a grain of sand looking up at a pyramid of power and from the bottom to the very top here in this tiny little part is corrupt, i do wonder if it keeps going right to the very top. i am nervous about sarkozy forming an army, i fear that we will start to play war games like our powerful neighbours for reasons i cannot comphrend. i worry that history will repeat itself.

The idea of the EU becoming a military power is frankly a pipe-dream. 27 countries running one army...

patrickthomas wrote: »

i also do not want to destroy your dreams nor your idealism neither.

It's hardly idealism at this stage. Activist scepticism might be a better description. We need what's in Lisbon, not for idealism, but for entirely realistic reasons.

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thank you for conversing with me, i will drop in again. goodnight pt

And a good night to you too.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

I'm going to draw a line here that's going to hold for the rest of the debate on Lisbon on this forum. I will ban people for making accusations of links between groups without providing evidence to suggest it, and no, knowing a few lads who're part of Generation Yes or Coir who happen to be members of Ogra doesn't make either group formally linked to FF.

I hate having to take these kinds of steps but far too many people have been engaging in smear tactics of late and I've had enough of it. Anyone repeatedly doing the above will be banned from all of Politics until after the referendum. You all have been warned.

Zuiderzee

skelliser wrote: »

i think im making a valuable point albeit using colourful langauge! who is funding these organisations that have sprung up, ff and there friends in europe using tax payers money? surely not!

generation yes
we belong
women for europe

sound quite orwellian when ya thing about it especially "we belong", looking and there site you'd swear we are having a referendum about living the EU the amount of rubbish on it.

And this "heart of europe" nonsense, give me a break

Well, the funding is a grey area, for both sides - as discussed here at length before.
I did call GenYes to find out about funding - i.e. who provides the office, but had no joy on that one. A bit of research did turn out to be quite interesting.

COIR refused to answer any questions, and there was no answer from the Libertas number.

As for fellow travellers, COIR, Libertas etc. this is a standard smear tactic - guilt by association - by a lot of the pro Lisbon camp and is also used by the lunatic fringe like COIR.

Scofflaw

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Well, the funding is a grey area - as discussed here before.
I did call them to find out about funding - i.e. who provides the office, but had no joy on that one. A bit of research did turn out to be quite interesting.

As for fellow travellers, COIR, Libertas etc. this is a standard smear tactic - guilt by association - by a lot of the pro Lisbon camp.

And you, of course.

regards,
Scofflaw

Zuiderzee

Oh come on Scoff mate, each blog is referenced!! The IIEA one is factual.
I think the most recent one was quite good actualy, even quoted Edward R Murrow.
G'Day from WA by the way.