Lisbon II - The A&A Thread

Dades

Well, given that the second referendum is one month from today, this seems like a fitting time to open the floor to A&A to air their views on the matters at hand.

The old Lisbon Thread was a feisty affair, and I don't doubt this will be any different.

So who have changed their views since last time? Who's even more determined to thwart the politicos?

Speak your minds, but keep your heads!

CerebralCortex

No

I'm voting yes just to piss off coir!

Dinner

No

Still a yes from me.

Coir have made a strong start to the campaign, some rather fetching and eyecatching posters. All lies of course though.

starchild27

No

Didnt vote last time as it was a foregone conclusion. Feeling more hopeful this time. Its a yes vote from me

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

Still voting No and am saddened that there is another forum I can't escape Lisbon in now. :pac:

Rev Hellfire

Which way is Jesus voting, cos I'm I'm going to vote the opposite.

Err, whats the link between athiesm and lisbon. Other than the CC says vote yes ?

Galvasean

No

I voted No the first time round.
However, there were a few issues I was not aware of (I blame the Yes campaigners inability to campaign properly) that I was not aware of which may have persuaded me otherwise.

This time I'm thinking of switching to Yes, because all I am seeing at the moment is blatant lies coming from the No camp (Choir/Youth Defense I'm looking at you). €1.84 minimum wage if we vote Yes? I've never heard sucha crock of BS.

robindch

No

Well, I've read the Treaty (has anybody else?) and I'm happy that it's a respectable and decent document. The No-side, in contrast, has descended immediately into a campaign consisting entirely of false-muck-raking and creationist-level shite.

So I'm voting Yes.

Goduznt Xzst

won't be voting... apathy ftw

Dades

No

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Err, whats the link between athiesm and lisbon. Other than the CC says vote yes ?

Atheists are Europeans too!

ChocolateSauce

No

Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote yes because Coir is calling for no.

However, I do. The main reason is that I'm very much pro-EU and the treaty will make the EU more effective.

The influence of the secular and liberal EU is most welcome, from an A&A viewpoint.

More generally speaking, I think the vetoes have to go. It is insane that Malta could veto the wishes of the rest of the union. I can also envisage that a situation where, say, Ireland, Malta and Poland might veto something the rest agreed on because of Catholic influence.

Some people say the vetos are critical to our sovereignty, and they might be right, but I don't think that living in a totally sovereign nation-state is preferable to living in a democratic collective of mostly-sovereign nation-states. We tried that and it got us virtually nowhere.

Long story short, I'll accept good government wherever I can get it, and the EU has proven itself to me to be a better role model than the Irish state (As of today I'm a criminal for owning a small collection of replica Katanas- for example).

Dave!

No

I'll be voting Yes... Haven't read the treaty, but have read enough about it to have an idea of what it's about. Seems completely benign to me, simply structural changes in the EU. Nothing to be concerned about.

Was disgusted by the last campaign/debate, so will be doing my best to avoid it this time (no listening to radio debates, no watching Questions and Answers (hey that's gone actually!)), cast my vote, and hope for the best.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

(As of today I'm a criminal for owning a small collection of replica Katanas- for example).

*calls Gardaí*

CerebralCortex

No

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

....Some people say the vetos are critical to our sovereignty, and they might be right, but I don't think that living in a totally sovereign nation-state is preferable to living in a democratic collective of mostly-sovereign nation-states. We tried that and it got us virtually nowhere....

Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.

Sam Vimes

No

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.

Some people consider the move from unanimity to QMV in some areas to be loss of sovereignty. It doesn't bother me, I think QMV is more democratic and in the areas where QMV currently applies, unanimity is the norm anyway. Everyone's perspective is still considered and negotiated before any decision is made

Any chance of a poll?

Dades

No

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Any chance of a poll?

Good idea. Just added a simple (public) poll.

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote yes because Coir is calling for no.

According to a report in this week's issue of The Irish Catholic the Irish Bishops' Conference (IBC) will come out later this month in favour of the Lisbon Treaty.

This comes after the Brussels-based Commission of the Episcopal Conferences of the European Communities (COMECE), the Catholic Church's representative body in the EU, gave a cautious welcome to the Reform Treaty.

Dublin's Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is Vice-President of COMECE

Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote no because the Church is calling for yes.

ChocolateSauce

No

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.

Where's Scofflaw when you need him?

Anyway, I think the possibility of having our votes over-ridden at EU level counts as a loss of some sovereignty, but it isn't being stripped, it is being pooled, and it has been and will only be pooled if we vote to do so.

Under Lisbon, if we decide that we don't like the pooling that we voted for, we can always withdraw from the union.

I'm certain that we will decide it is a good thing, however. QMV works both ways.

ChocolateSauce

No

ShooterSF wrote: »

Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote no because the Church is calling for yes.

The Church is not Coir. Although the Church is the bigger evil, it is only so because it is bigger.

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

The Church is not Coir. Although the Church is the bigger evil, it is only so because it is bigger.

Not really the place for it but I disagree. Coir are idiotic lunatics. The Church (And by which I mean those in power) are a much more subtle sinister group and are as such infinitely more dangerous, which considering their evil actions in the past makes me fear them more than Coir.
Anywho.

Dades

No

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Where's Scofflaw when you need him?

Hopefully in The Duke this Friday!
Besides, I'd say he has his hands full in Politics without dealing with Lisbon splinter threads...

fitz0

No

I think I'll vote Yes this time around, after a rather ill-informed No last time around. But as much as I realise Lisbon is a step forward I'm still a bit annoyed at the second referendum. I'll just not tell my family, they seem to be set to vote No despite what anyone tells them.

Muppet Man

No

No last time, yes this time. I'd be inclined to believe Michael O'Leary before any of the no campaigners. If he says "Yes", then thats good enough for me.

Muppet Man.

Dades

No

fitz0 wrote: »

I think I'll vote Yes this time around, after a rather ill-informed No last time around...I'll just not tell my family, they seem to be set to vote No despite what anyone tells them.

Unlike the census, with a referendum, mammy can't fill in the answers for people!

Galvasean

No

Dades wrote: »

Unlike the census, with a referendum, mammy can't fill in the answers for people!

Democracy 1 - 0 Mammy

Handsome Bob

No

As Galva said, I'll put my hands up and admit that I voted No last time however as Galva also said, I put that down to the Yes campaign's inability to sell their argument. I have to say that again, I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!" On the other hand the No campaign have put up posters that could strike fear into a lot of people such as "Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%". Now that is most likely scaremongering and taken out of context, but all the same they are effective tactics. Spin and underhanded maybe, but effective all the same.

I plan on reading the actual treaty, but right now I am leaning towards voting yes.

lostexpectation

coir is not a valid reason to vote yes, instead of being distracted by coir, aided by the media and yes side scaremongering about them rather then having a true debate, lets see what our vips are talking about

before the first ref after talking with ahern barroso has promised that ireland won't be taken to court over trying to keep the option of choosing the ethos of teachers etc in schools.

will passing lisbon help us get a proper education system?

Halla Basin

No

What does Coir stand to gain from a No Vote?

Sam Vimes

No

I know it's early days yet but it's interesting to see the marked difference in the results of this poll compared to others. 87% yes, I knew you guys wouldn't let me down

Except you shooterSF. You go stand in the corner :pac:

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I know it's early days yet but it's interesting to see the marked difference in the results of this poll compared to others. 87% yes, I knew you guys wouldn't let me down

Except you shooterSF. You go stand in the corner :pac:

obviously that's because atheists don't have a moral compass (except me)


(My tongue is well planted in my cheek today)

sink

No

It's obviously another yes from me. I find it interesting that A&A leans so staggeringly towards Yes side camp. Maybe Atheist & Agnostics have a better bull**** filter then the general population.

Zillah

No

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

Sam Vimes

No

sink wrote: »

It's obviously another yes from me. I find it interesting that A&A leans so staggeringly towards Yes side camp. Maybe Atheist & Agnostics have a better bull**** filter then the general population.

Well that goes without saying doesn't it

That's why we're atheists and agnostics in the first place

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

Speak for yourself

By the way the Politics forum's poll is similar to AH's.

ANTIFA!

No

yeah from me

marco_polo

No

Yipee I can resume posting here. I have been busy elsewhere recently .

Galvasean

No

Halla Basin wrote: »

What does Coir stand to gain from a No Vote?

Well, they seem to be of the opinion that abortion will sneak into Ireland if we vote Yes (it actually has no effect on the matter).

ANTIFA!

No

I think I know why the yes side on this forum is winning by so much. EU is seen by people who think they are 'progressive' types as being a pre-cursor to being 'European' which denotes open-mindness, liberalism and all that kind of thing which is kinda in Ireland what you associate with being Atheist. Just how I see it.

ANTIFA!

No

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

I don't agree entirely. The yes side attempts to portray that if Ireland was to vote no to Lisbon we would be thrown out and that we are truly unique among Europe that we reject the treaty when in reality in many countries it would be defeated(sweden and uk for example)

marco_polo

No

Auto yes poll boost

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921734&postcount=1996

Handsome Bob

No

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

Too bad the Yes campaign are inept, otherwise we would have a lot more people in the Yes camp.

Coriolanus

No

I'll be voting yes, same as last time.

As for why, well, I'm an incorrigible federalist. For me at least, this Treaty doesn't go nearly enough.

Turtwig

No

Voting Yes as before

I've actually forgotten most of this treaty:o, but I was fairly convinced the first time and I managed to convince family too:cool:


Time to repeat!

Oh and btw, Clare was one of the counties that voted 'yes; the last time

Galvasean

No

Zillah, I noticed you voted Yes in this poll. Will you be able to vote in the actual referendum?

OK-Cancel-Apply

No

Voting Yes, like last time. Had plenty of time to think it over at this stage! As someone said earlier, we're seeing the same old 'Creationist' style card tricks as before from the 'No' side.

rainbow kirby

Undecided at the moment, but leaning towards a Yes.

No

I voted no last year, but after putting a lot more research into my decision, I've changed to a yes vote.

Turtwig

No

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Undecided at the moment, but leaning towards a Yes.

Lean further:)

Obni

Not going to vote

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if the 'Yes' vote had triumphed in a legitimate democratic ballot the last time, they'd now be asking us again, just in case we'd changed our minds to 'No'. Wouldn't they?

I think the best argument for voting 'Yes' this time is that they're only going to try again next year if we repeat the 'No' vote. If we just let them pass the bloody thing then we can use all of our dwindling public finances to pay for NAMA.

On the subject of which, wouldn't it be cheaper to run the inevitable NAMA tribunals concurrently with NAMA, rather than after it gets buggered up?

Zillah

No

Obni wrote: »

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

In a democracy people are allowed to change their minds. The only reason you would resist a second vote is that you are afraid that enough people have changed their minds, meaning it would pass this time.

Hence, your objection to re-submitting the treaty is massively undemocratic: You want to prevent a potential "Yes" majority from having their democratic will done.

robindch

No

ANTIFA! wrote: »

The yes side attempts to portray that if Ireland was to vote no to Lisbon we would be thrown out

If the Irish electorate, through the Treaty as negotiated by the Irish government, doesn't agree with the future direction that all the other member countries have agreed, then -- other than a third referendum or the government implementing the Treaty regardless of the result -- I don't see any realistic alternative to Ireland withdrawing from the EU and leaving the other countries get on with it without us.

ANTIFA! wrote: »

and that we are truly unique among Europe that we reject the treaty when in reality in many countries it would be defeated (sweden and uk for example)

...and the other countries would probably reject it for reasons which are as appallingly stupid as the reasons the Irish electorate voted down the Treaty last year.

When people refuse to inform themselves about the issue they've voting upon and either vote upon something issue unconnected with the merits of the case, or simply outsource their opinions to cranks, nutters and single-issue fanatics, that's when democracy stops working.

marco_polo

No

Obni wrote: »

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if the 'Yes' vote had triumphed in a legitimate democratic ballot the last time, they'd now be asking us again, just in case we'd changed our minds to 'No'. Wouldn't they?

I think the best argument for voting 'Yes' this time is that they're only going to try again next year if we repeat the 'No' vote. If we just let them pass the bloody thing then we can use all of our dwindling public finances to pay for NAMA.

On the subject of which, wouldn't it be cheaper to run the inevitable NAMA tribunals concurrently with NAMA, rather than after it gets buggered up?

You have much too high an opinion of us if you think that this will be coming around a third time.

But I expect we will have little trouble getting the better deal that Sinn Fein wants next time around.

26 Other Member states: Ok right, we have ripped up the Lisbon lets start again. Since it can't be abortion, tax or neutrality this time around. What are the major issues about the future direction of Europe that you would like us to address?

Ireland: Eh .... No to Nama?

26 other Member states: