LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

drunken_munky52

The results of Lisbon 1, showed that Clare voted in favour of the treaty. That is likely to happen again... or is it?

Just like NAMA, Lisbon may be designed purely to put even more power in the hands of a few rich elite, and the it appears the masses are been scare mongered into thinking that voting yes puts the people first.

buck65

I think Clare will vote yes again. Not sure about the country as a whole, many might again use this to give a slap our incompetent, corrupt government.

Hawk Wing

I would not expect much from a county who elects wasters like Timmy Dooley

buck65

What about his disgraceful appearance by Muhammad Ali's side the other day? Himself Tommy Brennan, Peter Considine hogging the camera. These guys are patethic. Dooley becomes a TD and the first thing that happens on his watch? Aer Lingus pulls out of Shannon.

Clareman

I could have quite the rant if we were to get talking about Mr. Dooley, so I'll avoid that topic I think

Anyway, back to the Ops question, Clare has always being the leader for change in Ireland (the whole banner county people ) so I wouldn't expect us to vote no for many things, if anything we seem to vote Yes for controversal topics a bit easier, bring back Banji

drunken_munky52

Clareman wrote: »

I could have quite the rant if we were to get talking about Mr. Dooley, so I'll avoid that topic I think

Anyway, back to the Ops question, Clare has always being the leader for change in Ireland (the whole banner county people ) so I wouldn't expect us to vote no for many things, if anything we seem to vote Yes for controversal topics a bit easier, bring back Banji

Thank you for staying on track with the topic!

What makes Clare more inclined to vote yes I wonder?

Is it becuase we have an international airport, thus making us feel connected to a bigger collective?

Maybe its the many multinational companies that make us more competitive and greedy, than other counties where jobs are less.

Do we think that letting the EU, (which is effectively a representation of corporate power and thirst for profit before people), tell us that is in the people's interest that voting yes is good for democracy?

Quite frankly, if we voted no, we should also signal this decision as a rejection of the political system, which are only goons for profit. Not only another rejection is needed, but a revolution in our social system is needed to have equality... not some politician's notion of how to world should work

BLITZ_Molloy

I'm going to vote No because the Irish people already voted No. They're already carrying out parts of the treaty, and asking us to vote a 2nd time as if they care what we think?

It's going to happen anyway with or without our consent. It's already is happening.

I'm not mad on them replacing our own constitution (a perfectly clear and reasonably document) with something that's so convoluted few people can read it.

Anybody been to the cinema lately? They've got he most hilariously patronising pro-EU adverts. Some blonde with a D4 accent going "OMG. I don't have to change my money when I travel abroad. It's so convenient!" etc.

Turtwig

There is no point in rejecting a politicial system, if you can't propose a BETTER new one.

Democracy isn't perfect; it's a work in progess.

On Topic,

Clare will probably vote 'yes' again.:)

drunken_munky52

Malty_T wrote: »

There is no point in rejecting a politicial system, if you can't propose a BETTER new one.

Democracy isn't perfect; it's a work in progess.

On Topic,

Clare will probably vote 'yes' again.:)

There is every reason to reject this treaty as it was done before. It stops those vested interest rats in the shadows in their greedy little tracks.

It is important that people begin to relize, that economic growth should be based on something other than stock markets and making a few fatcats at the top sickeningly constantly holding the world to ransom.

You say a BETTER one. How about a world without a polictical system?

golfball37

Clare voted yes because we have to be seen as a Fianna Fail county. Timmy Dooley will be re elected despite him doing nothing to close Ennis A&E and actually voting to let Aer Lingus leave Shannon.
I was embarrassed we voted Yes last year if I’m honest, we’ve been hit a lot harder than most counties yet we never ever stand up, we just accept our lot. In many ways we deserve what we get.
I voted No last time, I don’t think I’ll vote this time- whats the point?

Teadrinker

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

There is every reason to reject this treaty as it was done before. It stops those vested interest rats in the shadows in their greedy little tracks.

It is important that people begin to relize, that economic growth should be based on something other than stock markets and making a few fatcats at the top sickeningly constantly holding the world to ransom.

You say a BETTER one. How about a world without a polictical system?

What do you suggest in its place?

drunken_munky52

golfball37 wrote: »

Clare voted yes because we have to be seen as a Fianna Fail county. Timmy Dooley will be re elected despite him doing nothing to close Ennis A&E and actually voting to let Aer Lingus leave Shannon.
I was embarrassed we voted Yes last year if I’m honest, we’ve been hit a lot harder than most counties yet we never ever stand up, we just accept our lot. In many ways we deserve what we get.
I voted No last time, I don’t think I’ll vote this time- whats the point?

Timmy Dooley, like any other politician are put in place to serve the needs of the super rich, they are not there to serve society. All they are driven by is profit, profit, profit.

As a previous post said, him mingling with Muhammad Ali is a perfect example of how corrupt the system is. The only reason he wanted to be photographed with him, is so he can get a name for himself is the business world.

The world is a business... and Lisbon will make the European Corporation a bigger player... thats not good for Irish people or people in the 3rd world.

People think its bad now, if this goes ahead we are in even deeper water.

It is imporatant to vote no, becuase if you abstain it will get through.

Run_to_da_hills

There is a lot of water gone under the bridge since the last Lisbon Referendum, job losses, hospital cut backs, off licence restrictions, cut backs, NAMA, general anger against Fianna Fail. I suspect this will have a strong effect on polling day as many will vote NO as a kick in the ass for FF to get Cowen out. There is also quite a strong Sin Fein support in Clare.

BLITZ_Molloy

Here's that cinema advert I was complaining about. They've got another one about popcorn as well...

Turtwig

I don't get why people think this treaty has to do with local Government i.e Fianna Fail it hasn't! It is a European referendum that deals with Europe so if people are basing this on the performance of the Irish Gov...I really don't know what to say, surely Irish people (at least Clare people) are better than that.
Surely?

drunken_munky52

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't get why people think this treaty has to do with local Government i.e Fianna Fail it hasn't! It is a European referendum that deals with Europe so if people are basing this on the performance of the Irish Gov...I really don't know what to say, surely Irish people (at least Clare people) are better than that.
Surely?

Leaving our problems aside, our own politicians... its important for people to vote no... and even more important is the reason we are going to vote no... we are going to vote no, not because we want to kick our corrupt system for getting us into a mess... we are going to vote no because it says to the corporate criminal empire... who have commited economic GENOCIDE... that we are not going to play by your rules anymore... we want a new approach to growth... one that is based on equality, sustainability and abundance... not elitism, waste and scarcity.

Run_to_da_hills

Our forefathers would turn in their graves if this threaty was passed. Dose anyone know if the Celts has come up with a good Anti Treaty Ballad.?

BLITZ_Molloy

The EU is an effective system up to a point. But they're trying to grab waaaay too much control lately. They forced the Lisbon treaty through in most countries without giving the public an opportunity to vote on it because they knew that the public in many countries would probably have voted no as well. There are alot of people in Europe that are actually happy that we voted no. If the conservatives get into power in the UK there's a good chance they'll call a referendum on it.

The member states are too different from each other, with different age demographics and types of economies for there to be an effective 'one size fits all' policy. This is leading to all kinds of conflicts where nobody can agree on anything. So they're trying to install unelected officials who can make decisions on our behalf... yes it means you get clear decisions but if they're not beholden to the public they're going to cause all sorts of problems. It's not really democracy with unelected officials.

In the US federal law is subserviant to state law. That way every state gets autonomy. What they're doing with the EU is making state law subserviant to federal law, which is going to be a disaster.

drunken_munky52

See below

drunken_munky52

Did anyone see Primetime last night?

Joe Higgens, what a ledge... he said in 30 seconds what Lisbon is all about, exactly what I have been saying...

1. it takes care of big European business (who are driven by profit only, dont be fooled into thinking there is jobs there) 2. it limits the rights of workers and gives more favour to employers, 3. it expands military spending, thus giving the green light to waste billions of euro on even more arms (what do we need more arms for, havn't we learned anything from nearly anilalating each other with two world wars?!)

Pat Cox just said what the others said, good for jobs, good for business (big business).

It makes me sick to see the likes of FF, FG, Labour, etc all standing together on this... becuase they are blinded by the fact that somehow if this is good for big business, magical jobs are going to be created out of it...

Nothing will change if we vote no, but if we vote yes, we will be less respected by the ordinary people of Europe and fooled by the Euro fat cats... who will laugh in gleem at us

Teadrinker

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Our forefathers would turn in their graves if this threaty was passed. Dose anyone know if the Celts has come up with a good Anti Treaty Ballad.?

Don't you think our forefathers would have been nicer, wiser and a whole lot happier if they'd seen Paree in their day?

Vote Yes!

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

but if we vote yes, we will be less respected by the ordinary people of Europe and fooled by the Euro fat cats... who will laugh in gleem at us

Ordinary people of Europe, hmm, maybe I was misled by the Irish Media (which isn't all that surprising to imagine) but it seems the majority of Europeans were pretty upset and somewhat surprised that Ireland voted no.
Perhaps these weren't the 'ordinary europeans' though, so who exactly were they??

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

one that is based on equality, sustainability and abundance... not elitism, waste and scarcity.

So, yeah, back to the original question what do you suppose that system will be, how it will run and who (if anyone) will run it.

Ideas are great, good one are even better, but until the goods are delivered they're not worth anything to anyone.

buck65

Jesus this is an inspirational thread, I am seriously contemplating voting no now even though I voted yes the first time. I am sick and tired of these political parties and media goons trying to influence us as if we will miss the gravy train into Europe and sink in the mire. Look at the ****ing mess we are in today! Was it my fault? No, was it anyone on this forums fault - probably not either yet we are the ones being screwed in the budgets and propping up banks and being asked to bail out a limping government and get this previously rejected bill passed. Time to pull up the trousers I think.

Teadrinker

buck65 wrote: »

Jesus this is an inspirational thread, I am seriously contemplating voting no now even though I voted yes the first time. I am sick and tired of these political parties and media goons trying to influence us as if we will miss the gravy train into Europe and sink in the mire. Look at the ****ing mess we are in today! Was it my fault? No, was it anyone on this forums fault - probably not either yet we are the ones being screwed in the budgets and propping up banks and being asked to bail out a limping government and get this previously rejected bill passed. Time to pull up the trousers I think.

There's not much gravy on "the gravy train" to Europe at the moment but it is the only train there is. It is wholly understandable that we are angry and broken hearted about what has happened but Europe didn't do it to us, Posters wrote here about what our forefathers might think of us accepting this treaty but I'll tell you something, I would tend to have more sleepless nights about what our kids and possibly grandkids may have to weather if we vote No.

buck65

I know what you mean but when a government that has screwed the small man for the past 15 years (Mr Ahern take a bow) and allowed our financial institutions to self regulate - asks you for help - it's just hard to take. I realise that we shouldn't use this as a stick to beat the governement but really I don't see alot changing in my life if this does or doesn't go through. Of course I am ignorant about the issues involved - tried to read the treaty once and my head exploded!:eek:

Teadrinker

buck65 wrote: »

I know what you mean but when a government that has screwed the small man for the past 15 years (Mr Ahern take a bow) and allowed our financial institutions to self regulate - asks you for help - it's just hard to take. I realise that we shouldn't use this as a stick to beat the governement but really I don't see alot changing in my life if this does or doesn't go through. Of course I am ignorant about the issues involved - tried to read the treaty once and my head exploded!:eek:

The treaty text is incomprehensible but just a google search will give you plenty of worth on both sides of the debate to weigh up. And no Libertas this time around!

drunken_munky52

Teadrinker wrote: »

Don't you think our forefathers would have been nicer, wiser and a whole lot happier if they'd seen Paree in their day?

Vote Yes!

Our forefathers were ultra nationalist you could say... they got our freedom becuase they saw ireland needed to be free from the clutches of the british war machine, if we were to have any chance of prospering... now we are part of the european war/corporate machine and are been asked to bow before their might... if our forefathers were still alive, they would gawke and not only the EU, but the big business interests it represents... any smart men like them should be able to see that.

BTW, I am for Europe in a different sense, but not as it stands now... at present it puts profit before people... the system needs to be radically overhauled so the needs of human beings are put first and not how many digits are in their bank accounts!

Run_to_da_hills

Has anyone had a look at the IRC guide? (Free Government hand out on the lisbon treaty that supposingly gives you a good idea in half an hour)

Azza

I really hate it when people pull this "what would our forefathers think" argument in an attempt to shame people into voting no. I'd imagine our forefathers fought to give us the freedom to choose our own destiny wether its an Ireland that wants to go it alone or an Ireland thats wants to be part of something bigger.

buck65

Azza wrote: »

I really hate it when people pull this "what would our forefathers think" argument in an attempt to shame people into voting no. I'd imagine our forefathers fought to give us the freedom to choose our own destiny wether its an Ireland that wants to go it alone or an Ireland thats wants to be part of something bigger.

What would our forefathers made of the internet!