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LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?
Comments
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That means absolutely nothing, Its more like that top brass in that organization have been bullied into submission by scare mongering EU politicians. The average fisherman with his trawler lying up on dry dock pi**ed off because his livelihood has been robbed by the EU is hardly going to buy this one.Try this http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/yes-best-for-industry-in-long-term-says-fishermens-group-101833.html#ixzz0S6f3iD5v
Hmm I thought the EU had robbed us and all the fishing organizations were against it. Seems you and Rtdh were wrong (again)0 -
I think Clare will vote yes again. Not sure about the country as a whole, many might again use this to give a slap our incompetent, corrupt government.
That's why most people need to think again. The way to vote on Lisbon is to size it up as a treaty, reading as much factual impartial information on it as possible.
If people are unhappy with the government, they should think strongly about rejecting the NAMA propaganda. I was for NAMA but I'm not sure now. Honestly guys, Ireland is bankrupt. California is bankrupt,. Michigan is bankrupt. Many other states are bankrupt. Incidentally, what's happening in the states is a mirror of what's happening here. The federal governnent is bailing out (and hence taking control) of states like California. Whoever gets to bail out has the power as they control the interest rates. Ireland is under that same kind of influence of power now.
You see these 'idiots' on TV always knocking Iceland. 'Oh, they wish they were part of the EU now' and maybe there's some truth to that,
but NAMA may be a stone throw too far for me. I think I'd rather we took our chances with FG's good bank system. It's NOT perfect I know but with tweaking it could serve it's purpose:
1. Let Anglo Irish and other corrupt pawn companies dissolve.
(NAMA supports these
2. LET the economy contract a bit more. It's a fake bubble anyway. It's a hard hit, but unfortunately it's reality.
It's a fake economy. In fact it makes the good companies look bad. There are now 140 or so medical device companies in Ireland exporting 10% total exports and a big chunk of the balance of trade surplus. Ireland has had a balance of trade surplus for the last 20 years, but these days (in the last 10 years) how much of it is really Irish?
Foreign owned companies provide jobs yes, but those jobs can evaporate overnight as you saw. Also, a lot of these companies are mediocre construction companies implanted by the likes of Anglo-Irish to fuel a fake bubble to make Ireland dependant on foreign investment.
And that's really my point. Ireland is now dependent on this
foreign investment, IMO, by design.
I say cut the big impaired toxic loans completely loose, keep the economy on life support until the budget slashes and keep putting money into subsidies for privately owned start-ups based in Ireland.
Not public companies like AIB. These companies can be invested by anyone and are really just corporate monarchies. That's what they are. That's what publically owned companies - LLC's (PLC's) - effectivlely are. They're mini mobile monarchies. A ceo steps into his harness at the top, does whatever the greedy shareholders want him to do for profits and then, on instruction, does whatever someone else tells him to do, gives himself a bonis and then offers free-for-all loans that are unrealistically repayable. The ceo of of these types of companies have NO responsibility (pretty much) Limited Liability Company.
The first LLC was set up in Germany in 1892. How reassuring is that, and now we have them in Ireland. CRH are at least responsible but the banks ... do you really want to support the continuation of these now corrupt ridden institutions? Anyone can pump money into these.
That's how sensitive they are. One more big H1N1 outbreak, or any kind of global hit at all, and bang - these ''assets'' rapidly become a big noose around everyone's neck. We need to take our bitter medicine. The Irish Economy in spite of still having a balance of trade surplus, is too fragile as long as we carry these banks along. Theres too much speculation in the market place and these times are far far too uncertain to take the risk. I say let the economy contract more this year, cut them loose if necessary, and work with what we do have. We as usual export more than we import. We now have good infrastructure. Literacy and education are amongst the highest in the world. Ireland has the highest level of economic freedom in the world, and after a few city states in Asia, and Australia, it's the fourth most economically free in the world. It's a small open economy that inherantly attracts investment. I don't support ignoring this in favour of supporting NAMA - which means in all honesty it means supporting another bubble waiting to be burst. I see it like this:
1. FG Good Bank
2. Labour Nationalisation
3. FF NAMA - the only show in town!!! ...only it's not a show for the extraordinary working people of Ireland.
If you are angry with the government then please, please don't be coerced into using the Lisbon treaty as a valve to let off steam. Vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Do your research. Answer the question actually being asked.
IMO, we need to demand a general election. Many of you are probably suffering from red mist. You've poured all your betting chips into FF, and now you can't back down. you have to believe that NAMA is the only solution, but it's not. The same people that walk around saying the same thing over and over and over again - 'the other parties would be no better...' are the same people that just can't imagine something better. You want to live in your imaginary world with a false bubble NAMA that's just going to (in the best case scenario) fuel a new property bubble ripe for the re-bursting. Please don't reward the likes of Anglo-Irish for their treachery.0 -
theasylumkey wrote: »
So if I get this right your opinion is now proof?Run_to_da_hills wrote: »That means absolutely nothing, Its more like that top brass in that organization have been bullied into submission by scare mongering EU politicians. The average fisherman with his trawler lying up on dry dock pi**ed off because his livelihood has been robbed by the EU is hardly going to buy this one.
he he he ah come on. You been shown using carefully calculated figures and statements from the Fishing organisations themselves to be completely wrong. Yes it's all a conspiracy against you.
In all seriousness lads you both are entitled to any opinion you like, but why come in here and peddle your nonsense. Is wrecking the EU so important to you?0 -
That's why most people need to think again. The way to vote on Lisbon is to size it up as a treaty, reading as much factual impartial information on it as possible.
If people are unhappy with the government, they should think strongly about rejecting the NAMA propaganda. I was for NAMA but I'm not sure now. Honestly guys, Ireland is bankrupt. California is bankrupt,. Michigan is bankrupt. Many other states are bankrupt. Incidentally, what's happening in the states is a mirror of what's happening here. The federal governnent is bailing out (and hence taking control) of states like California. Whoever gets to bail out has the power as they control the interest rates. Ireland is under that same kind of influence of power now.
You see these 'idiots' on TV always knocking Iceland. 'Oh, they wish they were part of the EU now' and maybe there's some truth to that,
but NAMA may be a stone throw too far for me. I think I'd rather we took our chances with FG's good bank system. It's NOT perfect I know but with tweaking it could serve it's purpose:
1. Let Anglo Irish and other corrupt pawn companies dissolve.
(NAMA supports these
2. LET the economy contract a bit more. It's a fake bubble anyway. It's a hard hit, but unfortunately it's reality.
It's a fake economy. In fact it makes the good companies look bad. There are now 140 or so medical device companies in Ireland exporting 10% total exports and a big chunk of the balance of trade surplus. Ireland has had a balance of trade surplus for the last 20 years, but these days (in the last 10 years) how much of it is really Irish?
Foreign owned companies provide jobs yes, but those jobs can evaporate overnight as you saw. Also, a lot of these companies are mediocre construction companies implanted by the likes of Anglo-Irish to fuel a fake bubble to make Ireland dependant on foreign investment.
And that's really my point. Ireland is now dependent on this
foreign investment, IMO, by design.
I say cut the big impaired toxic loans completely loose, keep the economy on life support until the budget slashes and keep putting money into subsidies for privately owned start-ups based in Ireland.
Not public companies like AIB. These companies can be invested by anyone and are really just corporate monarchies. That's what they are. That's what publically owned companies - LLC's (PLC's) - effectivlely are. They're mini mobile monarchies. A ceo steps into his harness at the top, does whatever the greedy shareholders want him to do for profits and then, on instruction, does whatever someone else tells him to do, gives himself a bonis and then offers free-for-all loans that are unrealistically repayable. The ceo of of these types of companies have NO responsibility (pretty much) Limited Liability Company.
The first LLC was set up in Germany in 1892. How reassuring is that, and now we have them in Ireland. CRH are at least responsible but the banks ... do you really want to support the continuation of these now corrupt ridden institutions? Anyone can pump money into these.
That's how sensitive they are. One more big H1N1 outbreak, or any kind of global hit at all, and bang - these ''assets'' rapidly become a big noose around everyone's neck. We need to take our bitter medicine. The Irish Economy in spite of still having a balance of trade surplus, is too fragile as long as we carry these banks along. Theres too much speculation in the market place and these times are far far too uncertain to take the risk. I say let the economy contract more this year, cut them loose if necessary, and work with what we do have. We as usual export more than we import. We now have good infrastructure. Literacy and education are amongst the highest in the world. Ireland has the highest level of economic freedom in the world, and after a few city states in Asia, and Australia, it's the fourth most economically free in the world. It's a small open economy that inherantly attracts investment. I don't support ignoring this in favour of supporting NAMA - which means in all honesty it means supporting another bubble waiting to be burst. I see it like this:
1. FG Good Bank
2. Labour Nationalisation
3. FF NAMA - the only show in town!!! ...only it's not a show for the extraordinary working people of Ireland.
If you are angry with the government then please, please don't be coerced into using the Lisbon treaty as a valve to let off steam. Vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Do your research. Answer the question actually being asked.
IMO, we need to demand a general election. Many of you are probably suffering from red mist. You've poured all your betting chips into FF, and now you can't back down. you have to believe that NAMA is the only solution, but it's not. The same people that walk around saying the same thing over and over and over again - 'the other parties would be no better...' are the same people that just can't imagine something better. You want to live in your imaginary world with a false bubble NAMA that's just going to (in the best case scenario) fuel a new property bubble ripe for the re-bursting. Please don't reward the likes of Anglo-Irish for their treachery.
Do you mind me asking what all the rant about NAMA has to do with a thread about an EU treaty? Our own government put us in the position we are in, a government we voted for.
Although in fairness I do agree with you that we should vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits.0 -
Do you mind me asking what all the rant about NAMA has to do with a thread about an EU treaty? Our own government put us in the position we are in, a government we voted for.
Although in fairness I do agree with you that we should vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits.
It doesn't have anything to do with it. I demonstrated that no matter how much economics and NAMA tie in with the treaty, I will vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Nothing more, nothing less, and I hope others do the same0 -
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It doesn't have anything to do with it. I demonstrated that no matter how much economics and NAMA tie in with the treaty, I will vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Nothing more, nothing less, and I hope others do the same
Okay... but NAMA has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty. NAMA is going to go ahead whether we vote Yes or no to Lisbon.0 -
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We won't know that until post-lisbon. If Lisbon is rejected FF would probably be ousted following a general election (I would hope) and then ...no more NAMA!
As much as I like the idea unfortunately it's not based in any reality. No government has ever quit from a referendum loss. Only the Greens can get rid of Fianna Fail and they won't do anything until their own poll ratings improve. It looks like we'll be waiting for the next general election, which is obviously the sensible time to vote against the government.
If you don't like what the government is doing it really makes no sense to vote against the EU.0 -
I never said they would quit from any referendum loss. I think it's quite possible that a 'no' together with the budget cuts they have to implement could be enough for a vote of no confidence in the government and a resultant general election. Obviously there's a lot of ifs, least of which being that Irish people are prepared to remove the dildo that is the government, after they allowed and continued to promote the false economy that they're now trying to re-inflate for the second burst through NAMAAs much as I like the idea unfortunately it's not based in any reality. No government has ever quit from a referendum loss. Only the Greens can get rid of Fianna Fail and they won't do anything until their own poll ratings improve. It looks like we'll be waiting for the next general election, which is obviously the sensible time to vote against the government.
If you don't like what the government is doing it really makes no sense to vote against the EU.0 -
I never said they would quit from any referendum loss. I think it's quite possible that a 'no' together with the budget cuts they have to implement could be enough for a vote of no confidence in the government and a resultant general election. Obviously there's a lot of ifs, least of which being that Irish people are prepared to remove the dildo that is the government, after they allowed and continued to promote the false economy that they're now trying to re-inflate for the second burst through NAMA
The government have a majority, they would need the greens to vote against them. Given the poll rating for the greens they are not going to do that any time soon. And why would the government see an EU treaty as a vote against them? It's much more likely that the EU will see a No vote as a vote against them.0 -
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FG would even be better but no matter what I say, it won't really matter very much will it? You'll just respond with 'they have no alternative' when they clearly do, or 'their alternative is not as good' .. in your opinion.
FG would be better for the real economy IMO, FF would be better for the fake economy, but that's the world we live in.
When FF canned the Eircom stadium project, people said they wouldn't vote them back in after that wastefulness but..they did
After the Ahern scandal, people said they would not vote for them again but ..they probably will.
After commiting to not vote for FF if Lisbon II is rejected.. they probably will.
After the mismanagement of the banking sector, people said they would not vote for them again.. but they probably would.
FF have done some very good things for this country and in some ways I'm proud of them but they have not done well enough.
I'd prefer give FG a shout if it was possible.0 -
FG would even be better but no matter what I say, it won't really matter very much will it? You'll just respond with 'they have no alternative' when they clearly do, or 'their alternative is not as good' .. in your opinion.
FG would be better for the real economy IMO, FF would be better for the fake economy, but that's the world we live in.
When FF canned the Eircom stadium project, people said they wouldn't vote them back in after that wastefulness but..they did
After the Ahern scandal, people said they would not vote for them again but ..they probably will.
After commiting to not vote for FF if Lisbon II is rejected.. they probably will.
After the mismanagement of the banking sector, people said they would not vote for them again.. but they probably would.
FF have done some very good things for this country and in some ways I'm proud of them but they have not done well enough.
I'd prefer give FG a shout if it was possible.
You have gone off the rails completely on the topic... we aint discussing NAMA or our arsehole government... we are discussing the implications of voting yes or no for Lisbon.
If you want to discuss NAMA, then go to this thread that I also setup:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670371
Seems like "Fergusman" did a runner on this one... too by the book he is.0 -
As I said, if NAMA is rejected the implications are FF could be ousted. It is very real and possible that this could happendrunken_munky52 wrote: »You have gone off the rails completely on the topic... we aint discussing NAMA or our arsehole government... we are discussing the implications of voting yes or no for Lisbon.
If you want to discuss NAMA, then go to this thread that I also setup:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670371
Seems like "Fergusman" did a runner on this one... too by the book he is.0 -
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What's the point? He's clearly too sexy for u!drunken_munky52 wrote: »Thank you Sherlock, now do you have anything to say about Lisbon without including the topic of sexy Enda Kenny as an alternative leader?0 -
The eu has forced aer rianta to close it's duty free operations in Shannon where the concept was invented in the name of fair trade while allowing the French and German motor industries to be propped up by billions by their govts.vote no to the superpowers.0
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The eu has forced aer rianta to close it's duty free operations in Shannon where the concept was invented in the name of fair trade while allowing the French and German motor industries to be propped up by billions by their govts.vote no to the superpowers.
Yes, another example of how typically state run services are been siphoned off to private interests... whos main concerns and objectives is profit and more profit
Now the EU can bend the words are say they want to see us all live in a competitive economy, but this puts the persuit of profit before people always
Where does this stop? With the privitisation of our police force eventually... then the world will be run by private military companies (PMCs), when all the resources are used up... war will be the only means of business in the future
Stop this in its tracks and vote no0 -
drunken_munky52 wrote: »Yes, another example of how typically state run services are been siphoned off to private interests... whos main concerns and objectives is profit and more profit
Now the EU can bend the words are say they want to see us all live in a competitive economy, but this puts the persuit of profit before people always
Where does this stop? With the privitisation of our police force eventually... then the world will be run by private military companies (PMCs), when all the resources are used up... war will be the only means of business in the future
Stop this in its tracks and vote no
Actually, the other flip side of the coin
If we vote no, then it's highly plausible that not near enough action will ever be taken on Global Warming and we'll end up with a cataclysmic earth with frequent earthquakes,famine,storms,flooding etc etc so worrying about PMCs versus Fcked Earth ...i'd take the PMCs anyday..
Of course seen as your PMCs are actually wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more unlikely than my disaster scenario then on risk assessment what'd you do : Vote Yes!!!0 -
If we vote no, then it's highly plausible that not near enough action will ever be taken on Global Warming
Article 191 of the TFEU is amended to include for the first time in the Treaties a reference to the promotion of measures to combat climate change as part of the Union’s environmental competence. This reference was included at the request of the Irish Government. It will give the Union a specific basis for promoting international action against climate change.
Specifically the words promotion and promoting are used. This means sweet feck all... they are already "promoting" it, but the corrupt culture of big business still pollute the atmosphere and water... why... profit
Its like a child that does something bad... you tell that child that it is wrong... but he wont listen until you punish him... so promotion is worthless.
Were were the big balls to put hard hitting words instead of promotion into the treaty in regards this? Nowhere... becuase it would be a counter weight to their internal market and competition policies they have set out... they dont want to hurt big business's feelings by putting carbon reduction burdens on them
Face it... the EU aint worried about climate change... when the sea levels rise I am sure they have already figured out an oppurtunity for profit in that.0 -
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So if I get this right your opinion is now proof?
Not written on a page of paper proof that you cling to so dearly as being gospel from a bunch of elite corrupt politicians??
Sorry thats a No then.......i can use my own intelligence to think for my self & not just what i am being told is so & to fall into line.
I'd prefer give FG a shout if it was possible.
And as for this comment :rolleyes:
As much as this absolutley kills me to say this & i already feel sick before i say it.........if it was FF or FG i would reluctantley have to go with FF even though i despise the lot of them.
This is coming to a close very soon & this is what i will say to the ordinary man & woman reading this.
This was voted on last year & returned NO.
The government put together a committee to find out why the people voted NO & came back with a list of reasons to be addressed.
The treaty has remained the exact same as last year & nothing has been changed so you are not voting on anything other than what you voted last year.
Seeing as this is the same treaty that was democratically retuned with a NO why is it nessessary to vote on the EXACT same thing again.
If the treaty was being put to me with the chages that the Irish people were looking for actually addressed & CHANGED it may have some (although very tiny) justification to be run again but absolutley none now seeing as it hasnt changed at all.
The NO returned last should be automatically put in place by default without the referendum being run as it has already been answered.
Listen to your own country men & politicians from all across the spectrum who have jumped ship to advocate this in a complete turnaround here....
http://www.politics.ie/lisbon-treaty/81015-does-sound-like-something-would-good-ireland.html#post1816000
And this is a sample of whats in the link above....
In a speech in Poland to Polish Ambassadors, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said "Without the Lisbon Treaty... we cannot speak about the future of Europe, about European defence, about the enlargement of Europe, about perfecting Europe. With 27 countries, it's not possible." He continues: "With this we will be the most politically significant entity in the world with a responsibility for our destiny, which goes well beyond our borders." He says, "There are no more issues anymore which can be decided in one country, they must all be considered in the Europe of 27." He said, "We must bear in mind, the necessity of supporting our diplomatic efforts with a common defence, a European defence, as we showed in Georgia and Kosovo. Without this European defence, our diplomacy lacks strength. One way of strengthening this, making it less fragmented - and which will be one of the tasks of your Presidency - is to build a European diplomacy, through the European external action service, provided for in the Lisbon Treaty. The external action will be a European diplomacy which will not only be a diplomacy of bureaucrats. It is absolutely necessary that our diplomacies meet each other, unite and take their rightful place in this external action service, alongside the Commission." He concludes saying, "In Europe, I have learned something - I should say that with President Sarkozy it is quite easy to see - you have to be determined, solid, a little bit demanding, so as not to get lost in the complexities of sometimes interminable meetings." - French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner 20th of July 2009
https://pastel.diplomatie.gouv.fr/editorial/actual/ael2/bulletin.asp?liste=20090722.html&submit.x=9&submit.y=10
The YES men of today were telling & warning not to disrespect the Irish electorates desicion once the Vote has been cast.......how on earth can any of these people retain any credibility as politicians/business men that have our interests at heart when they are all proven now to be hypocrites.
Malcolm X;
"I have more respect for a man who says what he means & means what he says even if he is wrong, than one that tells me he is an angel but aint nothing but the devil"0 -
theasylumkey wrote: »Not written on a page of paper proof that you cling to so dearly as being gospel from a bunch of elite corrupt politicians??
Sorry thats a No then.......i can use my own intelligence to think for my self & not just what i am being told is so & to fall into line.
So if I can clarify you just think it's true and therefore it is?
You do see the difference between your opinion and provable fact right?0 -
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theasylumkey wrote: »Typical from you......dont address anything else commented on in the Post.......you are not a worthy adversary.
How can I address your points, you just gave your opinion with no backup. Explain your views, show the parts of the treaty they are in and then I'll be able to do what you ask.
And your sig is a link to out-of context or misrepresented quotes that have been long since been debunked. However I'm sure that won't stop you.0 -
Friend of mine from Dublin did an anti-Lisbon rap. It's a bit paranoid to say the least but quite entertaining.
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BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »Friend of mine from Dublin did an anti-Lisbon rap. It's a bit paranoid to say the least but quite entertaining.
It's quite catchy to be honest, I enjoyed it. The only thing is someone should explain to him that a song which slags off our government (rightly so IMO) has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty. The only point in the song that's actually about the Lisbon treaty is the chorus and all the says is Lisbon 2, **** you.0 -
How can I address your points, you just gave your opinion with no backup. Explain your views, show the parts of the treaty they are in and then I'll be able to do what you ask.
And your sig is a link to out-of context or misrepresented quotes that have been long since been debunked. However I'm sure that won't stop you.
Ah well i will refer you to this post i made over on another thread regarding continued participation on this forum from myself.......
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62322817&postcount=550 -
I expcet Clare to vote NO. Finanacial muscle unquestionably allows control of the flow of information and funds anonymous political lobbying, as we can fully appreciate in this country.
Corporate powers, rather than "ordinary" citizens, are therefore using their financial resources to back the "YES" campaign, because the more centralised the power becomes in Europe, the smaller the number of institutions it will be necesary to influence so as to shape the EU regulations and laws.
Voting "NO" will at least allow the other "ordinary" Europeans to have their say on the direction the EU is being pulled.0 -
The European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) is a pan-European think tank which conducts research and promotes informed debate across Europe on the development of coherent and effective European values-based foreign policy.
It was launched by fifty prominent Europeans in October 2007. ECFR's founding members include former European prime ministers, parliamentarians, business leaders, public intellectuals, and activists, all committed to increasing the EU's role on the world stage. The initiative is headed by Executive Director Mark Leonard, and has offices in five European capitals - Berlin, London, Madrid, Paris, and Sofia.
The organisation is supported by billionaire and philanthropist George Soros, along with Sigrid Rausing, the Spanish foundation FRIDE, the Italian UniCredit Group, and the Bulgarian Communitas Foundation. ECFR is not associated with or linked to the American Council on Foreign Relations.
ECFR was named the world's "Best New Think Tank in the last five years" by Foreign Policy magazine in its January/February 2009 edition.0 -
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drunken_munky52 wrote: »The European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) is a pan-European think tank which conducts research and promotes informed debate across Europe on the development of coherent and effective European values-based foreign policy.
It was launched by fifty prominent Europeans in October 2007. ECFR's founding members include former European prime ministers, parliamentarians, business leaders, public intellectuals, and activists, all committed to increasing the EU's role on the world stage. The initiative is headed by Executive Director Mark Leonard, and has offices in five European capitals - Berlin, London, Madrid, Paris, and Sofia.
The organisation is supported by billionaire and philanthropist George Soros, along with Sigrid Rausing, the Spanish foundation FRIDE, the Italian UniCredit Group, and the Bulgarian Communitas Foundation. ECFR is not associated with or linked to the American Council on Foreign Relations.
ECFR was named the world's "Best New Think Tank in the last five years" by Foreign Policy magazine in its January/February 2009 edition.
It is an official cover for the catering of politicians to meet with powerful business men - AKA Lobbying
The name "European Council on Foreign Relations" really means, a council which sway government policy.
This council is totally un-accountable, and the decisions that are made by political leaders in these meetings are spun for presenting to the public.0
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