LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I dont think yes voters are even reading the reasons to vote no... this just shows pure laziness, as there is more detail for voting no.

!

Amazingly, you're probably right on this one. Seriously, just give us one sensible argument....pleaseeeeeeeeeee

Also, um, just thought I'd like to point out that I love how people expect treaties to have no compromises

Fancy That

Warper wrote: »

Can someone give me one valid argument for voting No?

I will definitely be Voting "Yes". Great argument put forward by someone earlier "if you are unsure vote No". You'd swear we were going to be overtaken by Nazis or something. Wake up people, the EU has helped us enormously since we joined, just think of all the Grants, funding we have recieved.

The Lisbon Treaty is all about a stronger and more united European Union. These "No" posters that are about are laughable. They are primarily based on fear - eg a European Tax - this is not true. Ireland will always have control over their own policies which include tax, minimum wage, defense etc..


Voting No would be lovely alright. Ah Germany can we have some money please - No.

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU. A NO vote would leave us as the cousin nobody wants to share with..

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

onedoubleo

Fancy That wrote: »

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU. A NO vote would leave us as the cousin nobody wants to share with..

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

The only opposition I have heard from the YES side is the funding that we will lose. The President of the EU came out and said that if we vote No then we will become a second tier country.
The Irish politicians have been riding off the back of EU funding for the last 15 years, and now Europe's big powers are telling them pass this or we wont play nice anymore.
Ask the fishermen what happens when our politicians get bullied by Europe.

Our law makers and politicians have become so corrupt that they have not had the interests of the country first.

How easy is it going to be for if any four of Italy, Germany, U.K, France, Spain will immediately have the 65% Population requirement. Our own government and higher ups are been forced to back this imagine how easy its going to be for them to pass new laws.

Europe is already adding 3 new laws to every one we make here. Why would we want to fast track them telling us exactly what we should be doing. If we pass this treaty then we will be given a lot when times are good but we will be one of the first on the chopping block when times are bad.

And why not take away all the nice easy life our politicians have, they are overpriced hacks. Or minister for Health is a graduate in Modern Studies, now I may be crazy but I would much prefer a doctor to be the person in hcarge of our hospitals. Our minister for Science, Technology, Innovation and Natural Resources was a journalist and a business graduate. Im sure that will have really shown him the capabilities for Technology and Natural Resources.
This No vote probably wont be but might just shake up this government enough that some capable people will be taking charge or at least be a step towards it.

drunken_munky52

Fancy That wrote: »

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES

Spoken like a pure autocrat... they've brainwashed you into becoming one of them... its like Hitler speeches all over again... The European propaganda machine has filtered down to our nation's roundabouts... VOTE YES - ICH BIN EIN BERLINER!

Fancy That wrote: »

...and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU.

We will continue to do so under the current treaty... but the arguement that we should hand over all our power to the EU just becuase they gave us a few motorways (which ultimately will benefit the union), is not a valid one...

Fancy That wrote: »

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

The treaty does not set these rules in stone. Rememeber its going to make the EU self regulating, so it can do what it likes whenever it likes... it can pull a new law out of its arse whenver it feels like it cant get something it wants.

The question is:

Do you want to live in a democracy or do you want to live in a autocracy?

Please know you cant have both.

Vote no if you want to live in a democracy
Vote yes if you want to live in a autocracy

bowsie casey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is a lot of water gone under the bridge since the last Lisbon Referendum, job losses, hospital cut backs, off licence restrictions, cut backs, NAMA, general anger against Fianna Fail. I suspect this will have a strong effect on polling day as many will vote NO as a kick in the ass for FF to get Cowen out. There is also quite a strong Sin Fein support in Clare.

...not based on the 3.4% that Anna Prior got in the last election there's not!

One of the reasons I will vote Yes is because Sinn Fein are advocating a No vote.

drunken_munky52

bowsie casey wrote: »

One of the reasons I will vote Yes is because Sinn Fein are advocating a No vote.

I do not support Sinn Fein either... but I do agree with them

And I am agreeing with them, that they are right this time.

Just this week, I was walking through Ennis and met one on the street handing out leaflets. It was about the cutbacks the schools are facing... basically they were saying, whatever about anything else "hands off the schools" for god sake, they are bad enough as it is.

He said he would have a piece on NAMA soon aswell and also continue to fight a no vote for Lisbon... you cant fault them... they are an nationalist party, therefore they are only looking out for their own... not greasy bankers, developers and polichickens...

But dont take Sinn Feins word for it, check out this page:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0909/1224254135086.html

asmobhosca

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I do not support Sinn Fein either... but I do agree with them



you cant fault them... they are an nationalist party, therefore they are only looking out for their own... not greasy bankers, developers and polichickens...

But dont take Sinn Feins word for it, check out this page:

By looking out for their own I suppose you mean welcoming Garda murderers out of prison and being involved in drugs and criminality......
But of course thats all vicious "rumours" and "lies". :cool:

I consider myself a republican, but i'm really starting to hate the sight of the shinners especially ferris and macdonald down south.

drunken_munky52

asmobhosca wrote: »

By looking out for their own I suppose you mean welcoming Garda murderers out of prison and being involved in drugs and criminality......
But of course thats all vicious "rumours" and "lies". :cool:

I consider myself a republican, but i'm really starting to hate the sight of the shinners especially ferris and macdonald down south.

Well, to be quite honest I hate people who are using this referendum to vote either way to punish or not support a particular party, because they dont agree with what the did or stand for.

On one side, you have people who will vote no becuase they want to punish FF for the way they have brought the country to its knees.

On the other, you have Bowsie Casey saying he will vote yes, becuase he wants to punish SF, because I presume he has the same views as you... that they support Garda killers and the likes

What about the other small voices advocating a no vote? It seems like they would not be heard of at all, without a big party like SF backing them up. The juggernaut of FF, FG and Labour have it easy, becuase they have so much pull in the country.

PLEASE, DONT VOTE BECUASE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH A PARTY'S BEHAVIOUR OR MISTAKES.

asmobhosca

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

PLEASE, DONT VOTE BECUASE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH A PARTY'S BEHAVIOUR OR MISTAKES. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LISBON

I agree totally with you there, a person should only vote on the treaty that is placed in front of us.
To be honest I havent made my mind up yet on Lisbon.
Although given current circumstances I'm leaning closer to a Yes vote at the moment but that could change.

I think that some sections of the no campaign at times sensationalise the reasons to vote NO.
For example I saw a signs in Limerick which said "Vote No to stop Israeli genocide"
What the hell has that got to do with Lisbon?

The whole Libertas thing had a serious stink off it too... the Mcavaddys...omega air...U.S. military transport contracts...etc.
I think things like the above actually hinder the no campaign's credibility at times.....

The Yes campaign while having much cross party support is still failing to adequately explain the ramifications of the treaty to the Irish population.
Most people havent a clue what it actually means!! STILL!!!

BLITZ_Molloy

bowsie casey

Hahaha :pac:

Good ad in fairness to the xenophobes !

Run_to_da_hills

asmobhosca wrote: »

I agree totally with you there, a person should only vote on the treaty that is placed in front of us.
To be honest I haven't made my mind up yet on Lisbon.
Although given current circumstances I'm leaning closer to a Yes vote at the moment but that could change.

I think that some sections of the no campaign at times sensationalise the reasons to vote NO.
For example I saw a signs in Limerick which said "Vote No to stop Israeli genocide"
What the hell has that got to do with Lisbon?

The whole Libertas thing had a serious stink off it too... the Mcavaddys...omega air...U.S. military transport contracts...etc.
I think things like the above actually hinder the no campaign's credibility at times.....

The Yes campaign while having much cross party support is still failing to adequately explain the ramifications of the treaty to the Irish population.
Most people haven't a clue what it actually means!! STILL!!!

Read a copy of the Sovereign Independent if you get a chance, its mind blowing and full of facts. "A vote to end all Votes" is the title which says ever thing. it goes into the architecture of the EU system and tells us what privileges we loose and what powers they will gain. There is copies of this floating around town.

BLITZ_Molloy

drunken_munky52

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Read a copy of the Sovereign Independent if you get a chance, its mind blowing and full of facts. "A vote to end all Votes" is the title which says ever thing. it goes into the architecture of the EU system and tells us what privileges we loose and what powers they will gain. There is copies of this floating around town.

I have 200 copies of it... going to make sure I spread them in key locations around Ennis...

Dead on the mark... full of FACTS that would make die hard yes voters stomach's turn!

The best we got from the yes camp is the a few vague explanations in the referendum commision booklet and a FG poster with "sexy" ENDA KENNY appealing for a "young, energenic, sexy FG yes vote"

macshadow

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I have 200 copies of it... going to make sure I spread them in key locations around Ennis...

Dead on the mark... full of FACTS that would make die hard yes voters stomach's turn!

The best we got from the yes camp is the a few vague explanations in the referendum commision booklet and a FG poster with "sexy" ENDA KENNY appealing for a "young, energenic, sexy FG yes vote"

I have 200 copies too, i am going to try and get them into various workplace canteens, waiting rooms and the like. if you can think of any more ideas let me know.
anyone in limerick city needing a few copies let me know.

Run_to_da_hills

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I have 200 copies of it... going to make sure I spread them in key locations around Ennis...

Dead on the mark... full of FACTS that would make die hard yes voters stomach's turn!

The best we got from the yes camp is the a few vague explanations in the referendum commision booklet and a FG poster with "sexy" ENDA KENNY appealing for a "young, energenic, sexy FG yes vote"

PM me, I am in town for the weekend and have more copies if needed and other goodies.

drunken_munky52

Just a reminder... VOTE NO!

Lets keep this important topic rolling guys... our future doesnt depend on good food nor all ireland finals...

croker95

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Just a reminder... VOTE NO!

Lets keep this important topic rolling guys... our future doesnt depend on good food nor all ireland finals...

Back on Topic..... I would say it is very much odds on for Clare to vote Yes judging by the latest poll results.

I think Fear is the main factor in peoples minds. Fear, justly or not, of the economic consequences of a No Vote will swing the result.



But the Clare backs ability to curb Richie Hogan is causing me to lose sleep

drunken_munky52

What do you say people... is it time to close this original question? I think weve gone beyond weather Clare is going to vote for it or not... which it seems likely to vote yes....

In all fairness, if Clare votes yes again, it just proves that were thick rednecks... who will believe ANYTHING the PARTY says is good for them...

I would call on every Clare person to detach themselves from their so called "party duties" for once and realise that the politicians have it all wrong this time...

For once, can that people not go with the flow and show some independant thinking on the matter... deep down I know even the yes voters have their reservations... but push these aside becuase DOOLEY, KENNY and GILMORE are ramming this down yer throats that its good for you, when it just satisfys their political ambitions

The treaty is wrong.. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! GOT IT?

Run_to_da_hills

I was at a Bike rally last night in Inch and there was a very strong NO from people I questioned, the answer from most was the fact that we already voted NO and that our sovereignty is at stake. People also feard the prospect of a super police state governed from Brussels.

Teadrinker

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I was at a Bike rally last night in Inch and there was a very strong NO from people I questioned, the answer from most was the fact that we already voted NO and that our sovereignty is at stake. People also feard the prospect of a super police state governed from Brussels.

God, I'm surprised, you'd think they'd love it.....all that leather and noise!

drunken_munky52

VOTE NO!

golfball37

At the maid roundabout there's a sign saying "Dooley says yes"

Here was me thinking was this yes to allow Aer lingus do over Shannon or yes to closing A&E at Ennis?

Anyone would think the govt don't want to win this vote when they are sending out lightweights like Dooley to bat.

Then again maybe I've under estimated the stupidness of my fellow county men?:mad:

Run_to_da_hills

Teadrinker wrote: »

God, I'm surprised, you'd think they'd love it.....all that leather and noise!

Nope bikers are not at all like your average YES supporters.

Teadrinker

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nope bikers are not at all like your average YES supporters.

So, bikers are more like Sinn Fein, Coir, UKIP and Declan Ganley?

Run_to_da_hills

Teadrinker wrote: »

So, bikers are more like Sinn Fein, Coir, UKIP and Declan Ganley?

Nope, most respect true democracy and don't like stuff shoved down their troths.

drunken_munky52

Teadrinker wrote: »

So, bikers are more like Sinn Fein, Coir, UKIP and Declan Ganley?

So they have become the faces of the NO side? If thats the case, I fully trust them becuase I know, Run to da hills knows and every tuned into reality mind knows whats going on and not having to put up with the wool over their eyes.

So people in wonderland like yourself are more like FF, FG, Labour and CEOs of big corporations like Intel? No sorry... Im not in lalaland like them, I can see how the chess game is going to play out 10 moves in advance and not 1 move like they are.

Teadrinker

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

So they have become the faces of the NO side? If thats the case, I fully trust them becuase I know, Run to da hills knows and every tuned into reality mind knows whats going on and not having to put up with the wool over their eyes.

So people in wonderland like yourself are more like FF, FG, Labour and CEOs of big corporations like Intel? No sorry... Im not in lalaland like them, I can see how the chess game is going to play out 10 moves in advance and not 1 move like they are.

Who did you think were the faces of the No side?

You are the face of the No side on here and you are doing a great job - for the Yes side.

drunken_munky52

Teadrinker wrote: »

Who did you think were the faces of the No side?

You are the face of the No side on here and you are doing a great job - for the Yes side.

Do whatever your heart tells you my friend.

Vote yes to "recovery" and vote yes to "jobs". Vote yes becuase the "party" would never fib about such a thing...

Its simple... we "need" Europe. We are "stronger" with Europe... great agruments altogether... but I will have to stick with the conclusion I came to using my head and vote no

Run_to_da_hills

New Sinn Fein posters.

Hit back time

REPSOC1916

I've only seen those Sinn Fein posters up on Pearse Street in Dublin. It was the "military spending" one.

Run_to_da_hills

REPSOC1916 wrote: »

I've only seen those Sinn Fein posters up on Pearse Street in Dublin. It was the "military spending" one.

Saw same one oposite Tara St Station, The Farmers one will be popular down the country. These are well put together and reveal truth about this lisbon pact.

Run_to_da_hills

REPSOC1916 wrote: »

I've only seen those Sinn Fein posters up on Pearse Street in Dublin. It was the "military spending" one.

Saw same one oposite Tara St Station, The Farmers one will be very popular down the country.

These are well put together and reveal truth about this European pact.

homer1916

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

I'm going to vote No because the Irish people already voted No. They're already carrying out parts of the treaty, and asking us to vote a 2nd time as if they care what we think?

It's going to happen anyway with or without our consent. It's already is happening.

I'm not mad on them replacing our own constitution (a perfectly clear and reasonably document) with something that's so convoluted few people can read it.

Anybody been to the cinema lately? They've got he most hilariously patronising pro-EU adverts. Some blonde with a D4 accent going "OMG. I don't have to change my money when I travel abroad. It's so convenient!" etc.

What an attitute, im out of a job and voting no is going to ensure i stay out of one, thanks alot. Vote YES for Irelands sake

Teadrinker

REPSOC1916 wrote: »

I've only seen those Sinn Fein posters up on Pearse Street in Dublin. It was the "military spending" one.

Wonder if there's a military spending one on Kevin Street?

golfball37

homer1916 wrote: »

What an attitute, im out of a job and voting no is going to ensure i stay out of one, thanks alot. Vote YES for Irelands sake

I'm intrigued to know how exactly a NO vote ensures you stay out of a job whereas presumably a YES vote gets you back into work?

For Irelands sake vote yes? Why exactly? There's nothing in this European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty that provides for anything regarding business or investment or jobs. The inmplication that it does by the YES side is a complete falsehood much in the same way abortion will be brought in being a falsehood from the NO side.

drunken_munky52

homer1916 wrote: »

What an attitute, im out of a job and voting no is going to ensure i stay out of one, thanks alot. Vote YES for Irelands sake

He didnt have an attitude, he just was pointing out the reason why he will be voting no a second time and also pointed out the flaws in the yes camps messages.

Bad one that you are out of a job but please know that Lisbon does nothing to help you get another one... there is not one single aspect which says you or anybody else will get a job out of it... you are falling for the Yes poster lies... DONT.

In fact Lisbon will damaged regional spread of jobs... as the big countries like Germany will benefit most from it, tax harmonisation IS on the agenda, companies will calmour for the door out of Ireland when that happens and leave in bigger droves to central Europe (the centre of the European market) so that their goods and services can be distributed more easily.

marco_polo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

New Sinn Fein posters.

Hit back time

Not even original enough to come up with new lies.

They were right on the money about Nice too weren't they?

undermine our sovereignty :eek:
bring us closer into a European Army and NATO and :eek:
relegate us to the second division of a two-tier European Union. :eek:

http://www.sinnfein.org/releases/01/nicemanifesto.html

BLITZ_Molloy

homer1916 wrote: »

What an attitute, im out of a job and voting no is going to ensure i stay out of one, thanks alot. Vote YES for Irelands sake

I'm out of a job as well so get lost with your woe is me nonsense. It's me has the attitude?

I listen to a American political podcasts and at the moment whenever they want to pass a bill in the senate they're saying "Vote Yes, for jobs!" everytime. It's just feeding into the fear we have about the economy and how many people are jobless. I find the whole thing patronising. Why not give us some positive reasons to vote Yes instead of making vague threats?

I'm not sure which way to vote at this stage. I'm too conflicted. But anybody proudly voting yes because we're going to get better lending rates from the ECB, lots of jobs and Globex Corporation setting up in Ennis handing out free moccasins and productivity gaining hammocks are living in a dreamworld. The EU has enough problems of their own and they're not going to bail us out of anything. It'll be up to ourselves to fix the mess.

meglome

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Maybe its the many multinational companies that make us more competitive and greedy, than other counties where jobs are less.

Do we think that letting the EU, (which is effectively a representation of corporate power and thirst for profit before people), tell us that is in the people's interest that voting yes is good for democracy?

Quite frankly, if we voted no, we should also signal this decision as a rejection of the political system, which are only goons for profit. Not only another rejection is needed, but a revolution in our social system is needed to have equality... not some politician's notion of how to world should work

I'm not from Clare but if I was I'd be extremely insulted by this bull****.

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

I'm going to vote No because the Irish people already voted No. They're already carrying out parts of the treaty, and asking us to vote a 2nd time as if they care what we think?

It's going to happen anyway with or without our consent. It's already is happening.

I'm not mad on them replacing our own constitution (a perfectly clear and reasonably document) with something that's so convoluted few people can read it.

Anybody been to the cinema lately? They've got he most hilariously patronising pro-EU adverts. Some blonde with a D4 accent going "OMG. I don't have to change my money when I travel abroad. It's so convenient!" etc.

Again I'm not from Clare but this post is utter ****e. Feel free to pop over to the politics forum and have it explained to you in great detail why it's ****e.

What the hell is wrong with the No campaign in this country that they can't even state basic fact.

meglome

Sam Vimes wrote: »

... When making my own decision I had very little interest in what the yes side were saying because, as bladespin pointed out, the yes campaign was a shambles run by idiots. If I wanted to find out if there was anything wrong with the treaty I needed to look at what its opponents were saying and so I did and I found that everything they were saying was one of the following:

1. A lie
2. An exaggeration
3. Taken from something that was already in force and misinterpreted (because most of Lisbon is just Nice, Amsterdam and Rome put together)
4. A red herring

And then I learned the voting pattern of the main proponents of the no side (table shamelessly stolen from Scofflaw )

Group | Accession | SEA | Maastricht | Amsterdam | Nice | Lisbon
| | | | | |
Sinn Fein | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
P McKenna | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
Anthony Coughlan/National Platform | - | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
COIR/YD/SPUC | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
PANA | - | - | - | NO | NO | NO


And I realised the entire no campaign was a pack of naysayers trying to trick people into rejecting the treaty by telling lies about it because they know that the rest of the country doesn't hate Europe like they do

And Europe has every right to ask us to reconsider when our vote was manipulated by liars with ulterior motives

I think this says it all. (The Dub will run off and hide now)

And Run_to_da_hills I didn't know you were from Clare? Although I like your new tactic, you can't get away with posting all the lies in the politics forum so you're going into the regional forums and doing it instead.

BLITZ_Molloy

meglome wrote: »

Again I'm not from Clare but this post is utter ****e. Feel free to pop over to the politics forum and have it explained to you in great detail why it's ****e.

What the hell is wrong with the No campaign in this country that they can't even state basic fact.

Feel free to stay in the politics forum. If you're just going to pop in here and tell me what I'm saying is sh1te, offer no justification (and not read any of my other posts in the thread) and then fcuk off again then you can stay over there. I've no particular interest in talking to you. You're only interested in a slagging match.

I don't claim to know it all and I'm not sure wether to vote Yes or No. But the EU now has 751 MEPs up from 736 allowed to be elected under Nice rules. Doesn't that mean they're implementing parts of the Lisbon treaty already? Seems like that to me.

meglome

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Feel free to stay in the politics forum. If you're just going to pop in here and tell me what I'm saying is sh1te, offer no justification (and not read any of my other posts in the thread) and then fcuk off again then you can stay over there. I've no particular interest in talking to you. You're only interested in a slagging match.

I'm interested in balance and truth. But I'm also not from Clare so I didn't want to be starting a political discussion in a forum that isn't about politics or Dubs like me. Of course none of that stops me from being tired of listening to lies about the Lisbon treaty, which is the main reason I'm now actively seeking a Yes vote instead of just quietly supporting it.

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

I don't claim to know it all and I'm not sure wether to vote Yes or No. But the EU now has 751 MEPs up from 736 allowed to be elected under Nice rules. Doesn't that mean they're implementing parts of the Lisbon treaty already? Seems like that to me.

I don't know it all either which is why I started out with an open-mind on the whole thing. I didn't even vote the first time as I didn't know enough about it. You appear to me to be slating the Lisbon treaty, without knowing the facts.

Are those the pre-accession Nice rules or the post-accession Nice rules?

drunken_munky52

meglome wrote: »

I'm not from Clare but if I was I'd be extremely insulted by this bull****.



Again I'm not from Clare but this post is utter ****e. Feel free to pop over to the politics forum and have it explained to you in great detail why it's ****e.

What the hell is wrong with the No campaign in this country that they can't even state basic fact.

Yes, you are right about one thing... I dont know what planet your from but its definately not Clare.

Can you atleast backup your agruments with some "facts" of your own?... OH WAIT... thats right you dont have any facts coz your a yes sider... go back to your spaceship now...

marco_polo

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Feel free to stay in the politics forum. If you're just going to pop in here and tell me what I'm saying is sh1te, offer no justification (and not read any of my other posts in the thread) and then fcuk off again then you can stay over there. I've no particular interest in talking to you. You're only interested in a slagging match.

I don't claim to know it all and I'm not sure wether to vote Yes or No. But the EU now has 751 MEPs up from 736 allowed to be elected under Nice rules. Doesn't that mean they're implementing parts of the Lisbon treaty already? Seems like that to me.

There are only 736 MEP in the European Parliament currently.

golfball37

Meglome- Posting up the voting history of the NO campaigners does nothing for promoting the Lisbon treaty and in fact insults some of us who will vote NO but never vote for any of the crowd advocating a NO vote. This negative campaigning was a major factor in the YES side not getting out their message in June 08 imo. The implication being look whose saying vote NO that should be enough. I’m sure Declan Ganley and Sinn Fein have nothing in common except for their wish to see Ireland not pass the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, similarly I’m sure FF/Labour are the same on the other side.The question for me is how is it in Ireland’s interest to halve our voting rights in Europe? I will vote NO on this basis and this alone, I personally do not want to be part of a Federal Superstate, economic community yes, USE no. Lisbon is another step towards a USE and somewhere we need to say stop enough.

If we vote NO again Britain will vote NO too, the Czechs will probably not ratify either. I’m happy enough living under Nice & Maastricht and the 1937 Constitution and having the EURO as my currency, there’s come a point when you have to say stop though and Lisbon for me is this point.

meglome

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Yes, you are right about one thing... I dont know what planet your from but its definately not Clare.

Can you atleast backup your agruments with some "facts" of your own?... OH WAIT... thats right you dont have any facts coz your a yes sider... go back to your spaceship now...

As I keep saying I'm not from Clare and yet I'm not calling Clare people names and suggesting their idiots like you've been doing.

If there's anything you like to discuss about the Lisbon treaty then the European Union forum is the best place for it. I have a feeling though you won't do that as I suspect you know you're not telling the truth and they'd show you up in second.

Oh and one last thing it's very difficult for me to prove a negative, some would say impossible, so it's up to you to back up your claims with evidence. Lisbon is a detailed legal document so it should be easy for you to prove your claims, right?

meglome

golfball37 wrote: »

Meglome- Posting up the voting history of the NO campaigners does nothing for promoting the Lisbon treaty and in fact insults some of us who will vote NO but never vote for any of the crowd advocating a NO vote. This negative campaigning was a major factor in the YES side not getting out their message in June 08 imo. The implication being look whose saying vote NO that should be enough. I’m sure Declan Ganley and Sinn Fein have nothing in common except for their wish to see Ireland not pass the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, similarly I’m sure FF/Labour are the same on the other side.The question for me is how is it in Ireland’s interest to halve our voting rights in Europe? I will vote NO on this basis and this alone, I personally do not want to be part of a Federal Superstate, economic community yes, USE no. Lisbon is another step towards a USE and somewhere we need to say stop enough.

I have no problem with anyone voting No, that's their democratic right. However I do think it's very important to have balance. It's easy for some people to claim that Lisbon will cause your first born child to be sacrificed so it's important those people are challenged to show where in the Lisbon treaty that can happen. It's also important to show that the No campaign have called for a No to every single EU treaty that each of the groups has been around for, even the one when we joined the EU in 1973. The No campaign has used really similar reasons to call for this No vote to each one too, since 1973.

The No campaign are quick to say we shouldn't trust our politicians, I assume since most of the No campaign are not elected, but why should we trust people who say No at every step using the same reasons. Reasons, none of which have come to pass since 1973. Seriously Ian Paisley of old would be proud.

There's nothing about a federalist state in Lisbon and for example the German constitutional court found that nothing in the Lisbon treaty created one. Lisbon is mostly about making EU more efficient, it's not exciting but there you go.

drunken_munky52

meglome wrote: »

The No campaign are quick to say we shouldn't trust our politicians, I assume since most of the No campaign are not elected, but why should we trust people who say No at every step using the same reasons. Reasons, none of which have come to pass since 1973. Seriously Ian Paisley of old would be proud.

I you had bothered to read over this thread you would see that myself and many more have been pointing out the many reasons why we should vote no, which by far outweigh any lame reasons to vote yes.

Lisbon over rides our constitution -> End of -> We will never be asked to vote again. That aint democracy mate... thats autocracy, so get real.

All these agruements been put forward by the yes campaign, which include the retention of a commisionor is just a political smoke screen. When you peel away at the skin you get to the rotten core, something really stinks inside, and I dont want to be any part of that, nor does any right minded free thinking person

meglome

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I you had bothered to read over this thread you would see that myself and many more have been pointing out the many reasons why we should vote no, which by far outweigh any lame reasons to vote yes.

Apologies I admit I didn't read every post. Please would you mind posting your list of reasons over in the EU forum and I'll reply properly.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Lisbon over rides our constitution -> End of -> We will never be asked to vote again. That aint democracy mate... thats autocracy, so get real.

Anything we need a referendum on now we would still need a referendum on after Lisbon was approved. But since you're making the claim why don't you show us the part of Lisbon that does what you claim? It's all there in the treaty, right? No problem for you, right?

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

All these agruements been put forward by the yes campaign, which include the retention of a commisionor is just a political smoke screen. When you peel away at the skin you get to the rotten core, something really stinks inside, and I dont want to be any part of that, nor does any right minded free thinking person

Em the No campaign wanted our commissioner retained, most Yes campaigners don't care about that. Commissioners are there to represent the EU and not the member states. I have a feeling you mistaking free thinking with dreaming. But since you're going to show me the list of these things in the Lisbon treaty I'm sure you can prove me wrong, right?