LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

At least the population would not be mislead into false hope. Two years time the big national cry out will be "I voted Yes and where's my fu*cking job" meanwhile the state will be flooded with Turkish immigrants willing to work for less than e2.an hour :eek:

I think there are twelve criteria that any country must meet to join the EU and Turkey has managed to meet one of them in 15 years. And that's leaving aside all the country's that wouldn't want them in, it needs to be a unanimous decision. So in the real world Turkey hasn't a hope of being in the EU any time soon or possibly ever. And the minimum wage in this country is legally set at 8.65 (or whatever it is) and the only way to pay someone less is to break the law. You can't even state basic fact.

We need to look to our government to handle the economy as scary as that thought is. You told me before you don't vote so I'd suggest at the next general election you do and hopefully we'll have some change.

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

If this had happened to a bunch of Taxi drivers who decided to bring the national capital to a standstill for 2 days because they can't be arsed to go through the proper channels, I would have stood by and cheered the Police.

You know the worst thing about about blocking O'Connell street is it isn't open to normal traffic. By blocking it they were blocking all the joe public coming home on the major bus routes across the city. So they just screwed over the working man/woman. What genius thought that one up.

Fancy That

So drunken monkey and run 2 da hills......you both are so gutted and devastated with the result, have lost what little faith you guys had left in our country I imagine.

So tell us does this mean you both are getting a one way ticket out of here.......no.....I didn't think so!!!

The treaty has been passed and fair play to all of us who took the time and came out to vote yes.

I think its time to stop debating, and look towards a positive future

Run_to_da_hills

Fancy That wrote: »

So drunken monkey and run 2 da hills......you both are so gutted and devastated with the result, have lost what little faith you guys had left in our country I imagine.

So tell us does this mean you both are getting a one way ticket out of here.......no.....I didn't think so!!!

The treaty has been passed and fair play to all of us who took the time and came out to vote yes.

I think its time to stop debating, and look towards a positive future

Postive me ho*le, in 5 years time you will be looking back with regret. Why the fu*ck did we sign the soul of our country over to Satan.

It was inevitable that this thing would come to pass. We were just buying time. No point in traveling as it will eventually spread across the globe like a cancer with ammended treaty after treaty.

We are now about to face one of the most stringent communist regimes ever on the face of the planet where every movement you make, item you buy, email /text you send is logged on a database . :eek:

BLITZ_Molloy

Lisbon, best of three?

drunken_munky52

Europe can do what it likes when it likes now.

What happened to you Ireland? Your ass used to be beautiful.



Your ass belongs to Europe now.

Saorstát Éireann:
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Postive me ho*le, in 5 years time you will be looking back with regret. Why the fu*ck did we sign the soul of our country over to Satan.

It was inevitable that this thing would come to pass. We were just buying time. No point in traveling as it will eventually spread across the globe like a cancer with ammended treaty after treaty.

We are now about to face one of the most stringent communist regimes ever on the face of the planet where every movement you make, item you buy, email /text you send is logged on a database . :eek:

ha ha ha ha ha. Ah Rtdh that's the best laugh I've had all afternoon. You just go too far so pretty much no one is going to believe outside of the conspiracy theory's forum.

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Lisbon, best of three?

Given the big yes vote I don't think there would be much point. That said I have no problem with more democratic voting.

Dr Kamikazi

Well, best out of three would make sense, if there was a Yes vote, there would be no doubt over the decision.
It's been pretty clear that the first No vote had mainly 2 reasons:

1: F*ck you FF, this will make you look bad in Europe cause we're fed up with you.
2: Hello, Europe, we're doing fine, thank you very much, we don't need your help. Also, instead of telling us what to do, how about we tell you how to run things, cause we're so great and have the best economy and know everything better, etc...

Now it's the reverse:

1: Still f*ck you FF, but we're voting for this thing to take power away from you incompetent muppets.
2: Hello, Europe: HHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But agree, there was such a resounding Yes this time that either 20% of people changed their mind or the government used one of their famous computerised systems to count the votes. One that cost 320 million, doesn't work, doesn't link up with any other system on earth and is based on 1980's technology.
Which reminds me, I have a C64 I need to flog to the government. I think 20 million should be considered reasonable by FF...

Is mise le key

Now after it has been decided & it is a YES i congratulate the victors.

I campaigned genuinley in what i believe was the best for my country.

We will never know what would have been now had we voted NO but ireland being politically & economically marginalised was the biggest fear card available & was played repeatedly. I dont think any of the Pro lisbon can say with conviction that is truly what they beleived what would have happened & if it is what they beleived then the entire campaign was tantamount to black mail.

If the fine folks we have now put our country firmly in control of are really the sort of people that would have done that to us had we democratically voted NO it is an indication of who you really are dealing with.

I will never give up the fight & will always have the best interests of my country first over any treaty that accomodates EU institutions power being enhanced over our own affairs.


Is D'éirinn mé - I am of Ireland.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

ha ha ha ha ha. Ah Rtdh that's the best laugh I've had all afternoon. You just go too far so pretty much no one is going to believe outside of the conspiracy theory's forum.

No Longer a Conspiracy.

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/20/project-indect-an-ai-to-police-all-of-europe/

Jumpy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its to the point, when you get the biased Media, TV and countries wealthiest fatcats promoting a campaign the Sheeple will follow.

Wait and see the great disappointment in two years time. Absolutly nothing will have changed except for the worse, our exonomy will have slipped further down the toilet.

People will still be looking for all those "jobs" promised. When they go out to demonstrate in the streets about this and the build up of other failures and corruption the sh*it will be kicked out of them by EU Gendarmerie. :eek:



,

NOOOOO dont take my shopping!

BLITZ_Molloy

Here now. Nobody said voting Yes was going to lead to more jobs or an economic recovery.

I actually spoilt my ballot. Don't have any agenda. But the thing about voting yes or no having an effect on our economy was complete bollocks and I found it quite stupid. We're going to have to sort our own mess. It'd just be nice if the government would engage their electorate on a genuine level instead of resorting to fear mongering and blatent bull****.

Run_to_da_hills

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Here now. Nobody said voting Yes was going to lead to more jobs or an economic recovery.

In two years time there will be riots on the streets with all that foolishly voted YES because they thought there would be jobs out of it. The only problem is that they would now risk their lives protesting because Lisbon has brought in the death penalty in times of riots :eek:

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In two years time there will be riots on the streets with all that foolishly voted YES because they thought there would be jobs out of it. The only problem is that they would now risk their lives protesting because Lisbon has brought in the death penalty in times of riots :eek:

sigh... there is no death penalty in times of riots. Well the law is on the books in Latvia so we'd better make sure not to all go there to riot about our government.

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

I actually spoilt my ballot. Don't have any agenda. But the thing about voting yes or no having an effect on our economy was complete bollocks and I found it quite stupid. We're going to have to sort our own mess. It'd just be nice if the government would engage their electorate on a genuine level instead of resorting to fear mongering and blatent bull****.

LONDON, Oct 5 (Reuters) - The Irish 10-year government bond yield spread over euro zone benchmark German Bunds tightened by 6 basis points on Monday, while the cost of protecting Irish debt against default dropped.

Meanwhile, the 10-year Greek government bond yield spread over Bunds also narrowed by 6 basis points.

These moves followed Irish voters endorsement of the European Union's Lisbon Treaty and a widely-expected change of government following Greek elections at the weekend.

Five-year credit default swaps (CDS) on Irish government debt contracted to 130.5 basis points from 138.5 bps on Friday, according to credit monitor from CMA DataVision.

It means the cost falls to 130,500 euros to protect 10 million euros-worth of Irish government bonds.

The 10-year Irish/Bund spread was last seen at 159 bps, retaining their position as the euro zone's highest-yielding sovereign debt, according to Reuters data.

http://www.lse.co.uk/FinanceNews.asp?ArticleCode=9dewjbmb9cbuypp&ArticleHeadline=irish_debt_yield_spread_narrows_cds_falls

It's now cheaper for the government to borrow money to get us out of this mess (the one they put us in).

Yes vote prevented market slump, say brokers

A DRAMATIC fall on the Dublin stock market was avoided yesterday due to the resounding Yes vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum, according to stockbrokers. Traders had feared that a No vote would send the Iseq tumbling by as much as 20 per cent yesterday, but instead the index of Irish shares held its value.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1006/1224255984213.html

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

sigh... there is no death penalty in times of riots. Well the law is on the books in Latvia so we'd better make sure not to all go there to riot about our government.

sigh...

meglome wrote: »

A DRAMATIC fall on the Dublin stock market was avoided yesterday due to the resounding Yes vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum, according to stockbrokers. Traders had feared that a No vote would send the Iseq tumbling by as much as 20 per cent yesterday, but instead the index of Irish shares held its value.

You cant see the wood for the trees my friend......

In a nut shell if you read what it actually says that it was an assumption by stock market brokers that an index of stocks would go south but instead nothing happened, stocks are by nature volatile in how they react to anything that happens in the world, "they had FEARED they might fall & instead they simply held there value". The opinion of a group of stock brokers that are on the verge of a nervous breakdown because they are speculating on stocks is no way to guide your self to desicions of a political nature & no way to vindicate the YES vote to the lisbon treaty.

This only reafirms the forces at work behind all the agenda's that were being spun as pro lisbon.........its about Money, Stocks, Companys, Multinationals (The Rich) gaining more influence over the direction of the EU's domestic influence in each member state & in world affairs, Not for the greater good of mankind but for the greater good of the main players, movers & shakers balance sheets.......nothing else.

This is really what it has all been about as your quotes in your last post reflect.......as soon as the vote was verified YES everybody's watching how their balance sheets are going to be from it......MONEY!

meglome

theasylumkey wrote: »

sigh...

You cant see the wood for the trees my friend......

In a nut shell if you read what it actually says that it was an assumption by stock market brokers that an index of stocks would go south but instead nothing happened, stocks are by nature volatile in how they react to anything that happens in the world, "they had FEARED they might fall & instead they simply held there value". The opinion of a group of stock brokers that are on the verge of a nervous breakdown because they are speculating on stocks is no way to guide your self to desicions of a political nature & no way to vindicate the YES vote to the lisbon treaty.

This only reafirms the forces at work behind all the agenda's that were being spun as pro lisbon.........its about Money, Stocks, Companys, Multinationals (The Rich) gaining more influence over the direction of the EU's domestic influence in each member state & in world affairs, Not for the greater good of mankind but for the greater good of the main players, movers & shakers balance sheets.......nothing else.

This is really what it has all been about as your quotes in your last post reflect.......as soon as the vote was verified YES everybody's watching how their balance sheets are going to be from it......MONEY!

I voted Yes on the treaty based on it's contents, anyone who didn't was pretty foolish in my opinion. The point is there were economic consequences to voting No and so far there has been a positive reaction to our Yes vote, just like the posters implied.

If I can summarise, Rich=Bad, Poor=Good. You really need to look at how wealth and jobs are created.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

I voted Yes on the treaty based on it's contents, anyone who didn't was pretty foolish in my opinion.

In my opinion anyone that voted on a self ammending document is gullible. :rolleyes:

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

I voted Yes on the treaty based on it's contents, anyone who didn't was pretty foolish in my opinion. The point is there were economic consequences to voting No and so far there has been a positive reaction to our Yes vote, just like the posters implied.

If I can summarise, Rich=Bad, Poor=Good. You really need to look at how wealth and jobs are created.

Again the section highlighted & in red especially is where the difference of opinion is between us.........

they (stock brokers) had FEARED they might fall

This was a fear of stock brokers that it would fall........it was an assumption not a pre determined outcome & it was this perception that was cranked up to fever pitch in the public domain that we would be devestated economically if we voted NO......

Look around you.....we are economically devestated & the fact that the ISEQ held still means SFA seeing as it is affected by global market conditions. The ratification still has obsatcles to overcome & the treaty is still in limbo so to assume that the global market conditions are feeding directly & immediatley from the status of the Lisbon treaty is nonsense.

This country & the world fell into ruin not from the Lisbon treaty & nor will it regain that prosperity from it. It was a means to an ends for the institutions to play that into the equation to get it passed as people are fearful for their's & their familys future so the YES was obtained on false premise & an innacurate understanding from the general population of what they were voting on.

Therefore can we have a re run of the referendum as the same criteria now applies as to the reasons it was run a second time (the people didnt understand what they voted on)....or so the YES side said.

More like the people understood it the first time as they were not under the strain & pressure they are today financially & that card could not be played & the wool was pulled over their eyes a second time into passing this with the promise that with a YES comes prosperity for the future.

Manipulation plain & simple do you agree??

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In my opinion anyone that voted on a self ammending document is gullible. :rolleyes:

I agree and thankfully none of us voted for a self amending document. Back to your conspiracy's.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Again the section highlighted & in red especially is where the difference of opinion is between us.........

This was a fear of stock brokers that it would fall........it was an assumption not a pre determined outcome & it was this perception that was cranked up to fever pitch in the public domain that we would be devestated economically if we voted NO......

Look around you.....we are economically devestated & the fact that the ISEQ held still means SFA seeing as it is affected by global market conditions. The ratification still has obsatcles to overcome & the treaty is still in limbo so to assume that the global market conditions are feeding directly & immediatley from the status of the Lisbon treaty is nonsense.

This country & the world fell into ruin not from the Lisbon treaty & nor will it regain that prosperity from it. It was a means to an ends for the institutions to play that into the equation to get it passed as people are fearful for their's & their familys future so the YES was obtained on false premise & an innacurate understanding from the general population of what they were voting on.

Therefore can we have a re run of the referendum as the same criteria now applies as to the reasons it was run a second time (the people didnt understand what they voted on)....or so the YES side said.

More like the people understood it the first time as they were not under the strain & pressure they are today financially & that card could not be played & the wool was pulled over their eyes a second time into passing this with the promise that with a YES comes prosperity for the future.

Manipulation plain & simple do you agree??

I suspect you don't know how economy's work. It all about confidence, whether it's investor confidence or stock market confidence. The Yes vote has helped that confidence, it's not a fix all by any means but it does help.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

I suspect you don't know how economy's work. It all about confidence, whether it's investor confidence or stock market confidence. The Yes vote has helped that confidence, it's not a fix all by any means but it does help.

Now you really have made me laugh out loud.......

value of stocks are dictated by perceptions of how confident traders are trading internationally and various other factors that influence the movement & sustainability (or perceived sustainability) of said stocks.......

However economics are driven through research & the relevant political factors/measures needed to achieve the results desired that came from the research being drawn up & implemented which may be at the cost of the indiginous population's of any part of the globe that becomes the scope of such political/economic aims.

The latter statement is what relates directly to the Lisbon treaty where the former is related to the here & now trading & would only be very temporarily affected if at all by a YES or NO in a referendum.

So the fact that the ISEQ remained stagnant the day after the vote in a time of recession is not an indication that the YES vote was the correct economic thing to do for the counrty & is a pathetic grasp at vidicating a campaign that promised economic recovery if we voted YES.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

I agree and thankfully none of us voted for a self amending document. Back to your conspiracy's.

Back to your conspiracy'sthe facts.

Lisbon is a self-amending Treaty which would permit the EU Prime Ministers and Presidents to shift most remaining EU policy areas where unanimity is required and a national veto still exists - e.g. on tax harmonisation - to qualified majority voting on the Council of Ministers, without need of further EU Treaties or referendums (Art.48.7 TEU).

In addition, the so-called “Flexibility Clause”, which allows the EU to take action and adopt measures to attain one of the EU’s objectives even if “the Treaties have not provided the necessary powers,” would be extended by Lisbon to all areas of the Treaty and not just the internal market rules as before (Art.352 TFEU).

This would open the floodgates to more political integration, i.e. centralisation, by means of this article, which is already widely used.

http://www.nationalplatform.org/2009/07/09/explanatory-document-on-lisbon/

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This would open the floodgates to more political integration, i.e. centralisation, by means of this article, which is already widely used.

Now I am GLAD I voted 'Yes':D
*Moving One step closer to a United Europe...just imagine the first time in human history so many different cultures would be living in harmony and peace..*

Europa...WOOT!!

We need a european anthem:)

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

Now I am GLAD I voted 'Yes':)

*Moving One step closer to a United Europe...just imagine the first time in human history so many different cultures would be living in harmony and peace..*

Europa...WOOT!!

Yes im sure they are positivley ecstatic in Bahgdad, Gaza, & Kabul at the harmony & peace bestowed on their countrys by Tony Blair who is the new EU president waiting in the wings........"WOOT WOOT WOOT Tony blair is going to be the head of the EU" they chant in excitment.

I am happy for you living in your EU bubble........ignorance is bliss;)

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Yes im sure they are positivley ecstatic in Bahgdad, Gaza, & Kabul at the harmony & peace bestowed on their countrys by Tony Blair who is the new EU president waiting in the wings........"WOOT WOOT WOOT Tony blair is going to be the head of the EU" they chant in excitment.

I am happy for you living in your EU bubble........ignorance is bliss;)

The same Tony Blair that helped form the GFA :eek:.
I'm pretty sure President Bush blackmailed him and held him to ransom;)
Now we've got Obama, we'll be ok.. He's awesome, pro-science and all!!:D


Anyways a History of Europe:

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

The same Tony Blair that helped form the GFA :eek:.
I'm pretty sure President Bush blackmailed him and held him to ransom;)

The same tony blair that is on the verge of an imminent investigation from within his own country as to the legitimacy of sending british troops to their deaths for what ends.

And bush most likley couldnt spell blackmail never mind undertake it.

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

And bush most likley couldnt spell blackmail never mind undertake it.

He had Karl Rove;)
That guy's a friggin genius.

Run_to_da_hills

The same Ton Blair that has turned the UK into a police State since the 9/11 7/11 false flag hoaxes.

No doubt he will continue his agenda once he takes up office as EU President.

Roll on the high tech compulsory National ID card and secret service gestapo police. :eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-363946/Welcome-Blairs-police-state.html

A New Europe where Dreams come true.

Dr Kamikazi

High tech surveillance, passports that can't be forged, exchange of information between the police forces of all the countries of the EU, the ability to access data, etc...
THANK GOD for that, maybe now at last something can be done about drug trafficking, human trafficking, organized crime and, yes, terrorism.
This data will be used in case you are under suspicion for any of these activities.
I do feel safer with all this backup to protect decent citizens.
Also, if you really think that inspectors will be sitting there and having a w*nk over your private data...really.
There's hundreds of millions of people in Europe. In 99% of cases your data will never be viewed by anyone.

Run_to_da_hills

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

High tech surveillance, passports that can't be forged, exchange of information between the police forces of all the countries of the EU, the ability to access data, etc...
THANK GOD for that, maybe now at last something can be done about drug trafficking, human trafficking, organized crime and, yes, terrorism.
This data will be used in case you are under suspicion for any of these activities.
I do feel safer with all this backup to protect decent citizens.
Also, if you really think that inspectors will be sitting there and having a w*nk over your private data...really.
There's hundreds of millions of people in Europe. In 99% of cases your data will never be viewed by anyone.

RFID technology that used is wide open to hacking and abuse just like any previous method used.

Eventually for convenience the authorities will have all eggs in one basket, IE one smart card for all, PPS, driving license, medical records, possibly transit card and even replacing the old "book" type passport. National ID, Someone with a the scanner will have a field day, or worse still some pen drive or laptop gets stolen from a state office with much of this information, all too common theses days. Now having the "United states of Europe" the rishs of such happening is even greater. :eek:

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The same Ton Blair that has turned the UK into a police State since the 9/11 7/11 false flag hoaxes.

No doubt he will continue his agenda once he takes up office as EU President.

There is no such role as EU President, not now not after Lisbon. There is the role of President of the European Council, which Tony Blair has already held as has Bertie. They are changing it from being a six month rotation to two and a half to five years. The person who gets the role will have few powers and doesn't even have a vote on council matters. It's no more than the role of a committee chairman with a fancier title. So even if Tony Blair did get the job, which is unlikely given his baggage he can do feck all.

But why bother with the boring old truth eh.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

RFID technology that used is wide open to hacking and abuse just like any previous method used.

Eventually for convenience the authorities will have all eggs in one basket, IE one smart card for all, PPS, driving license, medical records, possibly transit card and even replacing the old "book" type passport. National ID, Someone with a the scanner will have a field day, or worse still some pen drive or laptop gets stolen from a state office with much of this information, all too common theses days. Now having the "United states of Europe" the rishs of such happening is even greater. :eek:

And the really weird thing is the German constitutional court found there was nothing in the Lisbon treaty that created a federal state, absolutely nothing. But what would highly qualified legal experts know eh. If some mystery person says the opposite on a conspiracy theory's site then it must be true.

Rtdh you need to get out more.

drunken_munky52

meglome wrote: »

And the really weird thing is the German constitutional court found there was nothing in the Lisbon treaty that created a federal state, absolutely nothing. But what would highly qualified legal experts know eh. If some mystery person says the opposite on a conspiracy theory's site then it must be true.

Rtdh you need to get out more.

The simple fact that the Lisbon Treaty is self amending. That means any agreements made in the future by the EU are ratified immediately.

Did you fail to read the ammendment now put into the Irish Constitution? That was what the referendum was about, not the treaty, it was about changing kernel of our legel system.

Our constitution now explicity states our un-questioned faith to the EU in decision making process. We the people can shout all we like and no body in Europe will give a damm, becuase our own set of rules state that we must trust and accept their decisions without protest in the future.

Democracy my arse.

Saorstát Éireann
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

The simple fact that the Lisbon Treaty is self amending. That means any agreements made in the future by the EU are ratified immediately.

Did you fail to read the ammendment now put into the Irish Constitution? That was what the referendum was about, not the treaty, it was about changing kernel of our legel system.

Our constitution now explicity states our un-questioned faith to the EU in decision making process. We the people can shout all we like and no body in Europe will give a damm, becuase our own set of rules state that we must trust and accept their decisions without protest in the future.

Democracy my arse.

Saorstát Éireann
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

.

Ok, let's assume for a second that the treaty is self amending.
Who makes the amendments? The politicians, elected by the people of Europe.
Please explain to be how that still isn't democracy.

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

.

Ok, let's assume for a second that the treaty is self amending.
Who makes the amendments? The politicians, elected by the people of Europe.
Please explain to be how that still isn't democracy.

Ah come on now......sure in that case why should we have had a referendum!

Based on your logic because Fianna Fail are elected we should just trust them to make all our desicions for us!!!

To advocate a move away from consulting the people on any given changes to our political institutions & to allow the politicians to basically decide what is the best way to change & run without any input from the people is like self regulation......

History has shown that politicians that do not have to answer or take stock of the populations opinion do not operate in the interests of the people what so ever.

You may not even realise your self but your views are extremley right wing!

Trust the politicians to regulate themselves!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a chance.

drunken_munky52

theasylumkey wrote: »

History has shown that politicians that do not have to answer or take stock of the populations opinion do not operate in the interests of the people what so ever.

Whats good for big business interests is good for ordinary people... right?

Yes, our elected politicians have our best interests at heart becuase we were nice enough to put them in power, they would never betray our trust on the grounds we elected them based on their false promises and lies.

We cast a vote every 5 years and this eludes us into thinking we are living in democracy. Its corpratocracy we live in and we keep giving power to corruption, out of greed and fear.

Saorstát Éireann
1922 -2009
R.I.P.

meglome

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

The simple fact that the Lisbon Treaty is self amending. That means any agreements made in the future by the EU are ratified immediately.

Did you fail to read the ammendment now put into the Irish Constitution? That was what the referendum was about, not the treaty, it was about changing kernel of our legel system.

Our constitution now explicity states our un-questioned faith to the EU in decision making process. We the people can shout all we like and no body in Europe will give a damm, becuase our own set of rules state that we must trust and accept their decisions without protest in the future.

Oh I certainly did read the amendment and the treaty, which I can only assume you failed to do. The simple fact is anything we needed a referendum on before the Lisbon treaty we'd need one after, there is no question about this. They have simplified the method for making small changes, as long as the changes are the ones specifically agreed and they don't give the EU any new powers. And even those changes need a unanimous agreement between the EU states, including Ireland.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Ah come on now......sure in that case why should we have had a referendum!

You could look up Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty that specifies that changes must be made through the constitutional requirements of the member state, i.e. through a referendum in Ireland.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Based on your logic because Fianna Fail are elected we should just trust them to make all our desicions for us!!!

You do know how representative democracy works right?

theasylumkey wrote: »

To advocate a move away from consulting the people on any given changes to our political institutions & to allow the politicians to basically decide what is the best way to change & run without any input from the people is like self regulation......

You do know how representative democracy works right?

theasylumkey wrote: »

History has shown that politicians that do not have to answer or take stock of the populations opinion do not operate in the interests of the people what so ever.

I suppose, and it's just a suggestion, you could vote in different politicians at the next election. Representative democracy an' all that.

theasylumkey wrote: »

You may not even realise your self but your views are extremley right wing!

I can't see from his posts what his views are exactly, although he does seem to understand representative democracy and reality.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Trust the politicians to regulate themselves!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a chance.

It's almost like we vote them in every five years or something to make certain decisions on our behalf.

Malty_T wrote: »

.

Ok, let's assume for a second that the treaty is self amending.
Who makes the amendments? The politicians, elected by the people of Europe.
Please explain to be how that still isn't democracy.

I don't think he understands how representative democracy works. Not that what he's saying is correct anyway.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

Oh I certainly did read the amendment and the treaty, which I can only assume you failed to do. The simple fact is anything we needed a referendum on before the Lisbon treaty we'd need one after, there is no question about this. They have simplified the method for making small changes, as long as the changes are the ones specifically agreed and they don't give the EU any new powers. And even those changes need a unanimous agreement between the EU states, including Ireland.



You could look up Article 48 of the Lisbon treaty that specifies that changes must be made through the constitutional requirements of the member state, i.e. through a referendum in Ireland.



You do know how representative democracy works right?



You do know how representative democracy works right?



I suppose, and it's just a suggestion, you could vote in different politicians at the next election. Representative democracy an' all that.



I can't see from his posts what his views are exactly, although he does seem to understand representative democracy and reality.



It's almost like we vote them in every five years or something to make certain decisions on our behalf.



I don't think he understands how representative democracy works. Not that what he's saying is correct anyway.

Your a gas man.......your contribution to this is comical at best.......

Again i must say Where are the Mods????

This kind of posting got me a Red card & accused of 'trolling' & if i wasnt going to discuss things properly to not post at all!

I know how rigged democracy works:D;):D

Teadrinker

theasylumkey wrote: »

....

And bush most likley couldnt spell blackmail never mind undertake it.

This is awfully tempting...

Is mise le key

Teadrinker wrote: »

This is awfully tempting...

Originally Posted by theasylumkey
....

And bush most likley couldnt spell blackmail never mind undertake it.

Ok my hands are up i must be as dumb as george bush....

Correction: Likely

Nice one Teadrinker;)

drunken_munky52

meglome wrote: »

Oh I certainly did read the amendment and the treaty, which I can only assume you failed to do. The simple fact is anything we needed a referendum on before the Lisbon treaty we'd need one after, there is no question about this. They have simplified the method for making small changes, as long as the changes are the ones specifically agreed and they don't give the EU any new powers. And even those changes need a unanimous agreement between the EU states, including Ireland.

OK meglome, you read the treaty, I get now... I think I got for every post going back a 100 of your posts, so please stop repeating yourself.

Simple question: Do you trust politicians?

Saorstát Éireann
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

fergusman

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Saorstát Éireann
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

Hey Drinken munky you do realise that your sig is totally inaccurate?

Saorstat Eireann (Irish Free State) ended in 1948 when we declared a Republic. Youre 60 years too late.

drunken_munky52

fergusman wrote: »

Hey Drinken munky you do realise that your sig is totally inaccurate?

Saorstat Eireann (Irish Free State) ended in 1948 when we declared a Republic. Youre 60 years too late.

I was fishing for you fergusman and you know what... you are an easy catch!

Putting little bait like that in, its easy to make you surface from time to time.

When it comes to the big issues, you simply ignore my quotes to your post for a few days until the posts and quotes are far back enough for people to forget about what was said.

I eagerly await your next post in a few days time when todays little episode is a distant memory... talk to you then!

Saor Éireann
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

Turtwig

fergusman wrote: »

Hey Drinken munky you do realise that your sig is totally inaccurate?

Saorstat Eireann (Irish Free State) ended in 1948 when we declared a Republic. Youre 60 years too late.

I was fishing for you fergusman and you know what... you are an easy catch!

Putting little bait like that in, its easy to make you surface from time to time.

When it comes to the big issues, you simply ignore my quotes to your post for a few days until the posts and quotes are far back enough for people to forget about what was said.

I eagerly await your next post in a few days time when todays little episode is a distant memory... talk to you then!

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*Speechless*

I'm sorry I can't really say anything to that but ....

drunken_munky52

Vote Yes to "Jobs" (losses)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1007/condron.html

Eire Saor
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Vote Yes to "Jobs" (losses)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1007/condron.html

Eire Saor
1922 - 2009
R.I.P.

Not worried one bit about this because when the EDA get's up an running there will be a job for everyone! YAYs!:rolleyes:

Gregor Samsa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Back to your conspiracy'sthe facts

You can't just quote a chunk from the National Platform website and claim it's a fact. :rolleyes:

Here's a counter argument:

Lisbon, in amending article 48 of the Treaty on European Union, does expand the number of ways in which the European treaties can be amended from one to four. But, contrary to the view widely asserted by No campaigners, each preserves the right of member states, and individual national parliaments, to veto change.

[...]

In Ireland’s case that may involve a referendum if the change is more than what the courts define as “necessitated by membership” or within the essential scope and objectives of the union. In the Crotty case the Supreme Court distinguished between changes adding new “competences” – new areas in which the EU can act – for which a referendum is required, and changes to procedures within competences, such as voting rules, where a Dáil vote is sufficient to ratify a change. That allows Ireland, for example, to ratify the accession of new member states without referendums.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0928/1224255367818.html

Is mise le key

770 jobs to go in aer lingus......

But hang on a minute we voted YES?

Ah everything will be grand so dont worry about it the EU will bail out aer lingus (not):D

drunken_munky52

theasylumkey wrote: »

770 jobs to go in aer lingus......

But hang on a minute we voted YES?

Ah everything will be grand so dont worry about it the EU will bail out aer lingus (not):D

O'Brian's sandwich bars gone into liquidation... 600 odd jobs to go...
GE Money in Shannon... 70 jobs to go
Techoman... jobs to go
Yes to job cuts, thats the name of the game!

Who paid off these crowds off to keep their mouths shut until after the referendum?

The funniest sign I saw over the campaign was the Labour yes sign with the graduation hat and the yellow builder's hat... just imagined a lovely stuffed breakfast roll next to it... EMM YUM THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

Yes to: BREAKFAST ROLLS

meglome

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

O'Brian's sandwich bars gone into liquidation... 600 odd jobs to go...
GE Money in Shannon... 70 jobs to go
Techoman... jobs to go
Yes to job cuts, thats the name of the game!

Who paid off these crowds off to keep their mouths shut until after the referendum?

The funniest sign I saw over the campaign was the Labour yes sign with the graduation hat and the yellow builder's hat... just imagined a lovely stuffed breakfast roll next to it... EMM YUM THE GOOD OLD DAYS.

Yes to: BREAKFAST ROLLS

Yup that damn recession and incompetent government that the Lisbon treaty brought in... oh wait...

As I keep saying to you the Yes vote will help, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't make the recession suddenly go away and it doesn't make our government take the correct hard decisions.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

Yup that damn recession and incompetent government that the Lisbon treaty brought in... oh wait...

As I keep saying to you the Yes vote will help, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't make the recession suddenly go away and it doesn't make our government take the correct hard decisions.

Tell me in what way it facilitates at all the eventual easing of the recession?

The entire capatalist system is cyclical & will resolve itself eventually which has been the case long before the Lisbon treaty. So to claim that the Lisbon treaty will facilitate the free market recovery is a convenience of fact of the former & timing of the two.

When economys recover from the inevitable downturn they have experienced it will be applauded by the Pro Lisbonites as having been a result partly of the Treaty coming into effect & that all the promises of recovery etc. are vidicated.

Yes or No the capatlist system will rise & fall again & the impact the Treaty will have on that will be miniscule if any.

This treaty will allow greater control over domestic affairs here that is indisputable. And even now before this treaty has passed into being the Irish governments brain wave of NAMA is subject to being allowed to pass into being by the EU. So you can see that already a decision on how to best to get our country out of the hole it is in, is not ultimatley going to be taken by our government that we (not me) voted to represent us.

Is this the representative democracy you refer to??

An irish decision is either given the thumbs up or thumbs down by the EU. If it is the latter then Cowen & Co. have to shut up & go back to the drawing board until they come up with an idea that suits the EU model of thinking.

In closing i dont think NAMA is a great idea just to let you know, i think it is the most arrogant display of cronyism yet but the point of this post is to highlight that we have already seen an erosion of power in this country. regardless of your opinion of who is in power or the desicions they make it is subject to the nod from Europe & this is the way it has always been edging closer & closer to a state that has more control in each of its member states that the member states do them selves.

Everything will eventually be subject to EU approval or to be conducted withing EU guidelines.......how can this not be an erosion of sovreignty.

Dr Kamikazi

Considering that the Irish government is run by a bunch of thick cnuts who do nothing but send fat jobs the way of their friends and cronies, but not before wasting millions on useless reports compiled by idiots that don't get read, much less acted on, I would consider it a blessing that any tiny bit of control is taken away from these wasters, idiots and criminals.
It never ceases to amaze me that the Irish, who are a very smart and able bunch otherwise, seem to prefer politicians that look like the came straight from milking the cows.
Or are nothing but double dealing, corrupt sleaze-bags who only have one thing at heart: themselves.
Why else the roads, hospitals, public transport, tunnels that are too low, sports stadiums for 80000 people with no parking, estates that where built with no provision for schools, hospitals, water, waste water facilities, sports grounds, roads, etc... I could rant for days here.
In short, thick cnuts, cronies, idiots, sleazebags, monkeysh*t for brains, criminals, money and vote grabbing piles of excrement!
Go Europe, get some expertise and people who actually can run a country!

Is mise le key

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

Considering that the Irish government is run by a bunch of thick cnuts who do nothing but send fat jobs the way of their friends and cronies, but not before wasting millions on useless reports compiled by idiots that don't get read, much less acted on, I would consider it a blessing that any tiny bit of control is taken away from these wasters, idiots and criminals.
It never ceases to amaze me that the Irish, who are a very smart and able bunch otherwise, seem to prefer politicians that look like the came straight from milking the cows.
Or are nothing but double dealing, corrupt sleaze-bags who only have one thing at heart: themselves.
Why else the roads, hospitals, public transport, tunnels that are too low, sports stadiums for 80000 people with no parking, estates that where built with no provision for schools, hospitals, water, waste water facilities, sports grounds, roads, etc... I could rant for days here.
In short, thick cnuts, cronies, idiots, sleazebags, monkeysh*t for brains, criminals, money and vote grabbing piles of excrement!
Go Europe, get some expertise and people who actually can run a country!

I hear your voice & genuinley sympathise with your anger & frustration & agree with you on every single thing you said exept two things,

1. I dont beleive they are Thick at all but rather very aware of what they do but dont give a sh.it about the people of this country. They are guilty of crimes against the irish people because of what you touched on their cronism looking after all their elitist friends in positions of wealth.

2. Your advocation to have our domestic affairs controlled by europe simply because our otherwise intelligent electorate return a rotten to the core body of criminals to power.

The answer to our problems is not to look for foreign political solution as you will find that the corruption that has damned our country is running rampant through all capatalist western democracys. The answer to our problems as has always been is from within our country.

YOU & ME are the ones that can change this rotten system here without allowing in even more corruption from abroad. You can see how we are being screwed which is evident from your post & i understand how you are in turn then looking for an alternative to status quo that has damned our country but the answer is Irish men & Irish women standing up for Ireland here at home & us controlling our destiny.