negative edge,

K.O.Kiki

Apart (possibly) from mash moves, I still fail to see how Turbo can give one player an execution advantage.

Kirby

Sshh. quiet you. Your logic has no place in this here thread.

Dreddybajs

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Apart (possibly) from mash moves, I still fail to see how Turbo can give one player an execution advantage.

One frame links though obviously I don't think Kirby is doing this

Azza

I just tested turbo in training and it makes chain combo's a lot easier. Yes chain combos are easy by nature but to get the maximum number of hits in a chain combo is quite tricky and requires timing, where as turning turbo on made it easy to get the maximum number of hits as each moves cancels into each other as soon as its possible to do so.

Probably helps with certain link combos too.

I can imagine some turbo settings are different speeds on different sticks made by different manufacturers. If you had a stick that enabling turbo allowed the player to hold a button and input a command during every possible frame that allowed you to input then link combos would be become stupidly easy.

Kirby wrote:

Sshh. quiet you. Your logic has no place in this here thread.

I'd imagine the organizers of all the major international tournament have gone over the topic in depth. They all have banned turbo from tournaments. I'm sure they have very logical reasons for banning it.

Drebbybajs wrote:

One frame links though obviously I don't think Kirby is doing this

I don't think the madcatz pads and sticks turbo is fast enough to help in tight links. It doesn't register an input every frame so it would still require precise timing. However there could be other sticks with faster turbo's that could be a massive advantage in this area.

Kirby

As I said, it never occurred to me that it would be bothering people.

There are variable settings on mine. If I slowed it down so that stuff like electricity and stuff didn't work, would that make a difference? Probably not but I can't piano tap on a pad and it would be a complete pain to have to buy a stick and relearn at this stage

K.O.Kiki

@Azza: by definition, CHAIN combos are really just "mash & it comes out", so you'd get similar results from just hitting the buttons. Plus they can NOT be Special/Super cancelled, so major damage is prevented.

LINK combos are SUPER-precise (SRK Wiki defines them as: "Link combos are possible when frame advantage from a leading move matches or exceeds that of the move to be linked."), and here is where Turbo won't help.

So I still stand by "Turbo is not inherently bad for normal execution".

Dreddybajs

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

LINK combos are SUPER-precise (SRK Wiki defines them as: "Link combos are possible when frame advantage from a leading move matches or exceeds that of the move to be linked."), and here is where Turbo won't help.

Then how come I can go into trials in SF4, turn on turbo, and do an awful lot of the link stuff just by holding the button down? :pac:

edit: And Kirby reversal timing is so lenient in SF4 that you don't really even need to piano anyway imo

Azza

Yes mash a button to get a chain works, but mashing isn't precise enough to get the maximum number of hits out of a chain. For example try this combo with Bison, j.mk, 3xc.lp, 2xs.lp. You will find it quite easy to get the 3 hits of the c.lp and the first s.lp but the last s.lp is quite tricky. But with turbo its extremely easy.

Moving on to links. If a turbo is fast enough to register an input every frame (i.e one input per frame), you could hold a button down. So say with Bison's c.lk link combos which is a 2 frame link, you would hold the button down and the very first frame you could register an input after the first c.lk is finished you will get the next c.lk starting up this making link combo super easy.

Kirby

I feel fairly comfortable against boxer when they dont have meter...and usually stuff them on the way in. But once they get a few bars, I tend to spend too much time waiting for the EX rush that I get hit by jump ins. You will probably find you are better than you give yourself credit for.

Azza wrote: »

So say with Bison's c.lk link combos which is a 2 frame link, you would hold the button down and the very first frame you could register an input after the first c.lk is finished you will get the next c.lk starting up this making link combo super easy.

Go into training and put input display on and try it. Im betting its not as easy as you think it is .

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

Go into training and put input display on and try it. Im betting its not as easy as you think it is .

He was saying hypothetically if it was fast enough, not that that particular turbo button is indeed fast enough, you only quoted the bit after that.

Kirby

I realise he was speaking hypothetically, but I was just making the point that TheoryFighter is not the same as doing it in a match and stuff.

Azza

Kirby read my other posts, I already said the Madcatz sticks and pads turbo setting isn't fast enough to do that and even with turbo on would still require precise timing. But if another manufacture has a pad or stick that can register an input every frame with its turbo option then it would work like I explained. The speed of the turbo feature is up to the manufacturer and has nothing to do with the game.

And I already proved my point about chains.

Kirby

fair enough. Anyway, we have gone a little offtopic. We should create a seperate Turbo bashing thread

Placebo

real tournaments in japan take place on cabinets,

no turbo, no button binding.
Both are illegals in major tournaments. Thats all i was aware of.


assigning PPP to one button, maybe be suitable when use a pad but theres no need for it and as AZZA mentioned, its definitely a bad habit, im keeping away from it.

Monkeyto

Same for myself. I've always used the three finger combo, but for me I always found it easier than trying to use a fourth button attached to a Px3. I hate sticks with a fourth button line-up which is why I'll be removing them from my TE stick soon enough.

animaX

Monkeyto wrote: »

I hate sticks with a fourth button line-up which is why I'll be removing them from my TE stick soon enough.

You and me both! Hori ex2 ftw :pac:

A-Trak

Took the lazy way after I bought a stick and mapped PPP to one of the 'spare' buttons on the SE stick.

Have been practicing with the 3 button approach. While different, it doesn't take a huge amount to readjust, initially thought I may remove the 'extra,' buttons'

If I did how would these be filled does anyone know?

bush

A-Trak wrote: »

If I did how would these be filled does anyone know?

You can buy plugs for them.

L31mr0d

A-Trak wrote: »

Have been practicing with the 3 button approach. While different, it doesn't take a huge amount to readjust, initially thought I may remove the 'extra,' buttons'

Agreed. I forced myself to get out of the habit and have found I'm better for it. from watching my inputs in training, I noticed sometimes when moving my hand to do a focus I'd rub off the KKK button and it would throw off the FADC.

After about 10 minutes of training hitting all 3 buttons I'd retrained my muscle memory. That being said, I do think people on controllers, especially with only 4 face buttons, should be given extra consideration. They don't have the luxury of being able to use all their fingers on their right hand for button presses.

A-Trak

Agreed,

Banning the mapping of PPP/KKK for pad users would cripple their game, in effect stopping them using ultras/supers/teleports, unless they had some sort of lobster claw like hand.

animaX

A-Trak wrote: »

If I did how would these be filled does anyone know?

As bush says you could get button plugs. You could ask kiki to get you two, he's making an order with akihabarashop

FutureGuy

I'm late to the party...leave pad players map KKK and PPP and nothing more. Ban all turbo/mapping for stick users. IMO.

animaX

FutureGuy wrote: »

Ban all turbo/mapping for stick users

I think the whole argument was about turbo for a pad user!!

Kirby

indeed. You can piano tap on a stick, because you can use all your fingers. With a pad, you cant because its just your thumb. Imo, turbo just levels the playing field as Azza would say.

Placebo

on a completley diffent topic, over thinking here,
if pad users find it so difficult to do PPP then mayeb the should move to stick?
Stick users use stick for easier execution right?

but thats just being pedantic, just a thought, for the FUTURE

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

indeed. You can piano tap on a stick, because you can use all your fingers. With a pad, you cant because its just your thumb. Imo, turbo just levels the playing field as Azza would say.

I have no idea what you mean about this man - I thought you were talking about getting an ultra out, in which case it's impossible to piano on any controller because it's all 3 buttons. Also there are plenty of pro tekken players who play claw-style on pad.

A-Trak

Kirby wrote: »

indeed. You can piano tap on a stick, because you can use all your fingers. With a pad, you cant because its just your thumb. Imo, turbo just levels the playing field as Azza would say.

That's nonsense TBH. You choose to use pad though. No one forces anyone to use a pad or stick.
Its all about personal choice. And if you use a pad, you shouldn't receive any concessions over stick players because you deem a pad to be at a disadvantage vs. a stick.

Dreddybajs

RopeDrink wrote: »

And how would all this fly when you talk Keyboard?
Just curious... I know it wouldn't exactly need to be brought up because anyone who has any remote intention of playing SF4 with a smidgen of seriousness would have a Stick/Pad, but let's just say I trot along and claim I can't play without a Keyboard... Would people shoot me for using PPP/KKK even though the only version I've ever played effectively allows us to bind those keys?

:cool:

Kirby's the only person suggesting PPP/KKK be banned (and is only doing so hypothetically -as far as I can tell, no offence Kirby if otherwise- as an argument against the banning of turbo). I don't think anyone here has a problem with people using PPP/KKK. Azza and A-trak have posted already that they used/use the PPP/KKK buttons, and I'm pretty sure others do/did too and nobody ever had a problem with it at any of the meetups.

edit: The only possible reason I'd have against it is if, with Boxer, you can hold down KKK and still have access to all six buttons - normally when charging a TAP you have significantly less access to the other buttons. Even then though I'd be happy to let it fly.

chopperbyrne

Fairly certain pressing a punch/kick button while holding PPP/KKK for TAP would count as releasing the button press.

Dreddybajs

Yeah, I'd hope so - just haven't tested it and figured I'd point out pretty much the only possibility I'd be against the bind.