Should Turbo be banned at our Ranbats?

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

no it's not, in the very post you quoted Azza pointed out that PPP and KKK bindings are available in the game itself, whereas turbo is not. .

They are on the sticks. Extra buttons defaulted to PPP and KKK. Not only in the game.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

In COD4, there's no upper limit to how fast you can fire the pistol, and you can get custom controllers which turbo fire it so you can unload the entire magazine at once. By your logic this should be allowed as well?

This is not a custom controller....its the official controller for the game, licensed by capcom. If the official 360 pad had turbo on it, you would be damn sure it would be allowed in games like Cod4....because thats what everyone would be playing on.

Doesn't matter anyway, Im going to take the 5 people who voted no and create "Turbo Ranbat Super Turbo Match Fight....with Turbo!" Pity ill be the only entrant.

As I said, It looks like im going to have to relearn my stuff. But I wanted to point out the hypocrisy of this. If you cant see it, you are in denial. PPP and KKK buttons are doing the same thing.

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

You posted yourself in the other thread that you "don't need to worry about timing" or something along those lines (not sure of the exact quote) due to the turbo function. How can you post this and then claim there's no execution advantage?

Like Sagat, you misread it. Or i misposted it. What i was talking about was no need for negative edging. If you mash out a command while standing facing your opponent....and mess up and whiff an ultra you will get punished. If you do it while doing a slow dash such as Sims....or jumping in the air and mess up, it wont matter as the wrong move wont come out and you will be safe. Its a "safe" way of performing ultra. Its not turbo related.

Dreddybajs

It doesn't matter that it's a custom controller or not, if it works on 360/PS3 then so far we would be allowing it in our tournaments with the current ruleset - this is my point.

Also yeah, they're on the sticks, and I don't know if you realise but some fighting games (SNK mainly) use as the arcade setup 4 horizontal buttons. The turbo on my stick I use for shoot em ups, the 4 buttons on my stick I use for playing KOF. The fact is as well as being on the stick, the button bindings are in the SF4 options menu. If you can't see that that's different I can't really post it any clearer.

edit: Apologies for misreading that post so Kirby

A-Trak

Kirby wrote: »

I'm not using honda slap or electricity, and sim doesn't have any 1 frame combo links.

I am using Honda though. And although as you say turbo has no real benefit to Sim, it has a very obvious benefit to me as a Honda player. And if you can use turbo in a tourney, so then can I. Can you not see why this makes sense and people are voting against Turbo in the majority?

This isn't personal against you Kirby.

Kirby wrote:

If binding was banned, and it was default settings only, half of you would be suffering in the training lab and causing bloody murder on here. bah.

Not true. If bindings were banned such as PPP, it takes very little time to adopt to using a 3 button press on a stick, I know this from experience. Pad players such as yourself would suffer far more.

Kirby wrote: »

Using PPP and KKK is no different in principal to turbo. Its taking one input, and adding another 2 inputs to it with one button press. Its just that more people use this, so its not "banned". This is hypocrisy man.

I've bolded the key word here. In practice, they're far different.
Again, are you arguing that if you ban one, both must be banned?

Kirby

yes. Its picking and choosing which game feature to disable and enable because it suits certain people. You are pressing one button and letting the computer press 3. Its essentially the exact same.....except that people like it more

No real point in discussing this further. You know my viewpoint, I know yours. We are just retreading old ground. The mob has spoken it would appear.

A-Trak

Fair enough.

Democracy rules I suppose;)

chopperbyrne

Turbo and Button Bindings are completely different.

Button bindings are in the menu in the game, turbo isn't. As has already been pointed out, you yourself (using Dhalsim) may not gain a huge advantage by using turbo, but several other characters would.

Also saying you can't piano on your pad is a bit strange. Pads like that were designed so you can tap the buttons just like you would on an arcade stick using three fingers in a row.

The Madctz products are not official Capcom products and really have no association other than some artwork Madcatz paid for so people would take notice of and then buy their products. They knew without the license most people would write them off as the makers of numerous crap tech over the years.

This seems to be turning into a Kirby bashing thread, which I personally don't want to see happening as he's a top bloke and doesn't deserve it.

Azza

Its not a game feature Kirby, there is no in game Turbo setting, its a hardware feature external to the game.

Turbo is not exactly the same feature as one button pressing three either. Turbo register multi-pal inputs of the same button by merely holding the button down. You only get one input per button press without turbo (not including the releasing of the button).

The majority has indeed spoken so far. Its the fairest system we have to offer.

You might not agree with with the rule if it comes into force but thats how the system work. Implying its wrong merely because other rules or laws have been wrong before (like womens voting rights) merely imply's thats all rules/laws are possibly wrong.

Azza

No ones bashing Kirby, hes a sound guy, he has done nothing wrong, turbo wasn't officially banned in previous tournaments so he was entitled to use it, its just the majority of players here don't agree with his viewpoint. People are just a bit frustrated that both sides can't seem to see their point of view.

Kirby

Azza wrote: »

Its not a game feature Kirby, there is no in game Turbo setting, its a hardware feature external to the game..

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features. Without the extra button, you wouldn't be able to use the binding because you only have six buttons on the old sticks.

And I put this to you. You say binding focus and throws to one button is fine because "its in the game". If turbo would be an option in the game, would you still have a problem using it? I'm betting you would. So your arguement that its not aloud because its not in the game, is flawed. Which brings us back to the "it gives an unfair advantage" arguement instead. Which I maintain that if you arent using blanka, Chun lu or honda, it doesn't.

And Atari Jaguar!

Retr0gamer

It also gives you a very unfair anti dizzy advantage. Any other unscruppolous players can also gain a massive advantage with throwing and teching if they bind it to a turbo-ed button. We can't really enforce a rule that says, only use turbo for the way kirby is using it.

Azza

Kirby wrote:

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features.

Yes thats true and everyone can take advantage of them because the default controller for each system the game was released on has enough button to use it. Turbo is not also a software feature.

You argument that if Turbo was in built feature of the game that I still would not be in favor of it is the argument thats flawed. No fighting game has a built in turbo feature by design, the designers would not put it in because it would create an automatic two tier system where users that use it would would be at an advantage so everyone would be forced to use it. Then whats the point of the non turbo option. Besides if the community felt it takes away from skill required to play the game they would still end up banning it.

Then you go on to admit that 3 characters in your opinion do get an advantage from turbo, which kind makes your whole argument mute. You yourself get a tiny advantage from using it with Dhalsim otherwise you would not be using it. But its more than 4 characters. I have already tested it on chain combos and it does make them easier than they already are. If you have a fast enough turbo feature then links become a matter of holding a button. 95% of the cast of characters would gain a significant benefit. Something tricky liking j.mk,c.mp,c.mp,c.mk xx ex.hurricane kick for Ryu would be so easy to preform as the 3 links in it would be automatically done for you with no need to worry about correctly timing.

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

And I put this to you. You say binding focus and throws to one button is fine because "its in the game". If turbo would be an option in the game, would you still have a problem using it?

I wouldn't play such a terribly designed fighting game

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

The PPP and KKK buttons are also hardware features. Without the extra button, you wouldn't be able to use the binding because you only have six buttons on the old sticks.

No you don't, there are 2 more buttons above the other 6, beside the start/back buttons. I know someone who actually uses them weirdly enough.

Shotopunx

People binding on a stick is mental as well.

Cunny-Funt

As far as I'm aware PPP and KKK are binded by default. All I know is, when I had that shot of a SE stick, pressing the black buttons worked as PPP and KKK and I didnt bind ****, its the default controls, just like L1 and L2 and ppp and kkk by default.

Kirby, I'm surprised at you reaction tbh. Turbo is widely considered 'cheating'....everywhere. This really can't be your 1st time hearing this?

Hell I remember playing championship edition on the mega drive back when I was about 9 or something, I had just gotten some 3rd party controllers which had turbo on them and all of a sudden I could get ryu to jab at 100 million miles a second by holding a single button down. This pretty much instantly translated to me as 'cheating' with out anyone telling me anything.

Using turbo with chun li blanka and E-honda is actually one of those classic retro cheats people would remember from child hood...its literally considered cheating & it is totally different to mapping buttons. Theres no hypocrisy or double standards here man.

Sorry m8

Placebo

can any one confirm if SF4 cabs have 6 buttons or 8 buttons?
this is just got habbit ofcourse, if you ever got so good and went to japan, youd FAIL

everyone can dream

bush

Placebo wrote: »

can any one confirm if SF4 cabs have 6 buttons or 8 buttons?
this is just got habbit ofcourse, if you ever got so good and went to japan, youd FAIL

everyone can dream

They have 6, you could have 20 buttons with macros set up and you would still fail in Japan :pac:

Kirby

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

As far as I'm aware PPP and KKK are binded by default. All I know is, when I had that shot of a SE stick, pressing the black buttons worked as PPP and KKK and I didnt bind ****, its the default controls, just like L1 and L2 and ppp and kkk by default.

Kirby, I'm surprised at you reaction tbh. Turbo is widely considered 'cheating'....everywhere. This really can't be your 1st time hearing this?

Hell I remember playing championship edition on the mega drive back when I was about 9 or something, I had just gotten some 3rd party controllers which had turbo on them and all of a sudden I could get ryu to jab at 100 million miles a second by holding a single button down. This pretty much instantly translated to me as 'cheating' with out anyone telling me anything.

Using turbo with chun li blanka and E-honda is actually one of those classic retro cheats people would remember from child hood...its literally considered cheating & it is totally different to mapping buttons. Theres no hypocrisy or double standards here man.

Sorry m8

Well it's been talked to death at this stage....and people said their piece and i'm fine with that. But just talking hypothetically for a moment, this is really worth looking at.

It's less about turbo for me at this stage, and more about peoples perception of game aiding features. I'm the only one who uses it, yet four other people voted with it. Clearly what I'm saying reasonated with a few people. Your aren't looking at it analytically. You are looking at it from a childhood memory point of view.

If you examine what PPP buttons and bindings do compared to turbo, both take one button press and convert it into many. Using PPP buttons and focus bindings makes execution easier due to only have to press one button, instead of many.

PPP buttions and bindings don't allow you to pull off any move with them you can't normally....many people don't even use them......but it makes execution easier. How is this any different? It isn't.

There is no move you can with turbo that you can't do without it. Peoples problem seems to be it makes execution easier.......but so does using a stick over a pad. So does using PPP and KKK buttons. So does using noise cancelling headphones. None of those things give your character magical powers......they just make execution easier.

Azza's example of Macro's is completely off the wall. Macro's DO let you do things that arent normally possible. None of the features I've listed above let you do that.

All I was doing was highlighting how its very easy to declare outrage at something..... but ignore similar features in your own game because it suits you. And I mean the general "you", not you inparticular Cunny

Jim

Personally I have no issue with people using a Turbo feature, but I can see why it would be banned in tournaments.

With reference to your statement Kirby about how Turbo doesn't allow you to do anything in the game that you couldn't do without it, the only thing I could think of is that it would allow you to break out of dizzy quicker than is physically possible otherwise. Similarly it would enable you to do the hand slap etc faster than is physically possible. I don't think these examples are classed under something which Turbo makes easier to execute, but enables execution faster than you would normally be able to (which is the problem), whereas the PPP KKK buttons just makes it easier....if that makes sense?

Also I would like to point out to the people who said that taking away binding PPP and KKK to single buttons would **** up pad users, when using my pad I never once used these buttons but always pressed the three together and found it much easier :pac:

bush

Ye but it makes some things that are really hard to do, piss easy. Like hondas jab into fierce hands and blankas jab into fierce electricity. They take a lot of practice and work to master and its hardly fair if anyone can just stick on turbo and get the same results without any effort.
Ive no problem with you using it the way you do but ya cant have one rule for you and one for everyone else.

Kirby

Jim wrote: »

Personally I have no issue with people using a Turbo feature, but I can see why it would be banned in tournaments.

With reference to your statement Kirby about how Turbo doesn't allow you to do anything in the game that you couldn't do without it, the only thing I could think of is that it would allow you to break out of dizzy quicker than is physically possible otherwise. Similarly it would enable you to do the hand slap etc faster than is physically possible. I don't think these examples are classed under something which Turbo makes easier to execute, but enables execution faster than you would normally be able to (which is the problem), whereas the PPP KKK buttons just makes it easier....if that makes sense?

Also I would like to point out to the people who said that taking away binding PPP and KKK to single buttons would **** up pad users, when using my pad I never once used these buttons but always pressed the three together and found it much easier :pac:

As far as I know, there is a window or upward limit to button press for things like breaking dizzy and hand slap/electricity. Once you reach a certain speed with your fingers, anything past that is superfluous.

For example, 15 button presses a second does hand slap at the same speed as 30. The same with dizzy.

I mean, I'm open to correction here and I'd be willing to test it but apart from sore fingers, I can't see how it would be a difference. Sure, it would make executing the dizzy break easier.....but not faster.

bush

Heres a good video of jab into hands. He even does it twice in 1 combo at one stage. Ya can see how effective it is, if someone could just stick on turbo at our tournaments and do that it would be taking the piss. Learning how to piano that is really hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcNaXP_wlFc

Kirby

bush wrote: »

Ive no problem with you using it the way you do but ya cant have one rule for you and one for everyone else.

But thats in essence what I'm talking about. One rule for one game aiding feature, and another rule for the more popular ones.

Imo, three button punches make ultraing alot easier. There is less of a chance to whiff the move because you are only depressing one button....instead of three. Its common sense really.

There is less chance of whiffing Shoryu -FADC - ultra with ryu with a binding for focus attack and PPP buttons. Obviously, you can do the move without them quite well, as many people do. But it makes execution easier because you are pressing a total of 3 less buttons in the space of a second. There is less to go wrong.

Sagat06

Yes but with button binding your timing still has to be perfect. With turbo you get a lot more grace!

Kirby

How? All it is doing is tapping the button fast. You can do that with your own finger. Its not inputting the motion for you.....and you still have to press it at the right time or it will whiff.

For a simple example, Ryu's fireball. QCF + punch. You cant just hold down turbo punch and do QCF over and over. He whiffs it....and punches come out.

mr_kyle

I am for banning of both button binding and use of turbos on any method of input, be it pad or stick. My rational is that it takes the skill out of performing moves that require such inputs. For PPP and KKK all you have to do is press 3 buttons at once. Admittedly it is easier depending on the control method you choose. But then again, your control method is your own choice. It only needs to be bound to one button if a player is missing fingers.

Similarly with the multi presses, it is extremely unskillful to allow a controller to do the work for you. Good dexterity, quick timing are some precision are required for both of these inputs. As a measure of one players skill vs another, binding and turbos should not be allowed. Disallowing them helps separate the wheat from the chaff. For arsing about it is completely fine. But to determine player skill, they should not be used.

Retr0gamer

If turbo doesn't give you an execution advantage then why do you use it?

Also it's going to be very hard to enforce a rule where turbo is allowed for easier execution of moves but not allowed for ant dizzy or rapid press moves. Even if it's banned for those reasons it should be banned for everyone since anyone can take the piss with turbo and have the excuse of 'so it's not alright for me to take the piss with tech throws, anti-dizzy and lightning kick but it's okay for kirby to use turbo?'

Kirby

mr_kyle wrote: »

I am for banning of both button binding and use of turbos on any method of input, be it pad or stick. My rational is that it takes the skill out of performing moves that require such inputs. For PPP and KKK all you have to do is press 3 buttons at once. Admittedly it is easier depending on the control method you choose. But then again, your control method is your own choice. It only needs to be bound to one button if a player is missing fingers.

You won't get much support for that idea though, as many people use either bindings or PPP/KKK buttons. So you may be right about it.....but I can imagine how a poll like that would go.

mr_kyle wrote: »

As a measure of one players skill vs another, binding and turbos should not be allowed. Disallowing them helps separate the wheat from the chaff. For arsing about it is completely fine. But to determine player skill, they should not be used.

See here is the thing. I am not opposed to features designed to making execution easier. Neither is Capcom. Examine the changes they have made.

Shorcuts, to make execution easier. D,DF will activate Dragon punch.
Extra buttons on their official controllers so that people can use PPP/KKK, to make execution easier.
Bindings in the options, to make execution easier.
Reversal window timing is alot bigger than old games, to make execution easier.


They did all this for a reason. You should be battling your opponents, not your own execution. They did all that so that when you want a dragon punch to come out, it does.

I'm fine with it. But its hypocritcal to ban a feature because it makes execution easier....when you are fine with the rest of them. They all do the same thing....make exectution easier. None of them let you do things that you couldn't potentially do anyway. Think about it.

Discussion is fun

Sagat06

But I believe Capcoms idea of adding these features is to make the game more accessible for people.

But at a competitive level there should be no gimmicks!!