Should Turbo be banned at our Ranbats?

Kirby

Yes, they made it more accessible by removing some the execution barrier. If you fluff the dragon punch motion, it still comes out.

There is no "off" switch for that at competetive play. We all benefit from that particular feature.

Retr0gamer

The shortcuts were only added to the console versions to make it easier on pad users and to piss people off getting an EX shoryuken instead of an ultra.

Kirby

Retro, the shorcut system exists in the arcade version the same as it does in the console version. It's not a console feature, its a game feature.

Retr0gamer

It does exist in the arcade and console version, however some have been made easier in the consol version. To my knowledge in the arcade df,d,df is the shortcut for srk while on the console they made it even easier with df, df.

mr_kyle

Kirby wrote: »

I'm fine with it. But its hypocritcal to ban a feature because it makes execution easier....when you are fine with the rest of them. They all do the same thing....make exectution easier. None of them let you do things that you couldn't potentially do anyway. Think about it.

Discussion is fun

I do not appreciate you calling me a hypocrite at all. To repeat myself; I ban these features as it separates the good from the bad. Your arguement has now changed from allowing turbos/button binding to include the changes in SFIV relative to other SF games just because it makes it easier. This is not the same arguement.

There is making things easier on newcomers, like the changes Capcom have made most of which (but not all) I agree with. Then there is being lazy, like your suggestions. I think button binding / turbos encourage lazy play, fine for casuals but not for competition. Sticks (official or not) and pads have had 8 or more buttons for ages, this does not mean buttons should be bound to them for competitive play despite being in the default set up.

Kirby

I wasn't singling you out. I was speaking in general terms, like the last page when I specified when i say "you", I mean the general consensus. Don't take it personally.

My arguement never changed. People claimed that using these features makes it easier to perform certain combo's. My arguement is, there are many features , which I listed, that make it easier to perform combo's and links. What makes this one different? My point was, if you ban one execution helping feature....why are the rest of them allowed?

Kinetic^

Turbo buttons have never really come on official console controller (Xbox 360/PS3 controller), what you're using is a 3rd party controller. (I know there are a small number of exceptions with the mega drive releasing an official one and possibly more). While a lot of the more serious fighters tend to go with the Arcade stick/SF4 pad, if it was someone with an official controller they were playing against then they've already got an advantage before the match starts.

Even when someone goes to LP/LK with turbo, they'd have an advantage by just holding the button down rather then someone who would have to tap the button and possibly miss time it. If you were to play as Chun Li, Blanka etc then you would have a distinct advantage with the button mashing element of their moves being easier to do. As someone said, you can't have a rule for 1 and not for the others. If it doesn't assist anyone in anyway people won't mind turning it off. As it's standard in all competitive play throughout the world I think it would be advisable for the Irish scene to follow suit rather then have outsiders mocking your scene over something that is negligible.

Sagat06 wrote: »

But I believe Capcoms idea of adding these features is to make the game more accessible for people.

But at a competitive level there should be no gimmicks!!

This.

Cunny-Funt

Kirby wrote: »

Your aren't looking at it analytically. You are looking at it from a childhood memory point of view.

Argh man I was basically saying that having ryu being able to jab at a million miles a second (:p) is so obviously cheating that even a 9 year old who has no concept of how deep SF really is knows its cheating. I'm saying that its common sense, everyone else seems to know it, you get the odd chancer who tried it on 2df and they got shunned off the forums. There's damn turbo detectors built into the online emulators so as to inform the other guy that the bloke he's playing is cheating by using turbo, like punkbuster looking for wall hacks in an FPS.

Its more then a mere child hood memory point of view. Kirby you must have been aware this was widely considered a no no despite it being on the controllers etc This can't be the 1st you've heard about it....right?

Kirby wrote: »

If you examine what PPP buttons and bindings do compared to turbo, both take one button press and convert it into many. Using PPP buttons and focus bindings makes execution easier due to only have to press one button, instead of many.

For pads, using ppp and kkk makes executions possible. These are for moves that are designed to be done using 3 fingers pressing 3 buttons at the same time. With a pad you'd have to try and press two with your thumb and the other with a finger, pressing triangle and square and R1 on a ps3 pad at the same time is not the same as pressing 3 buttons that are all beside eachother on an arcade stick, its just not.

This however is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to holding down a single button versus having to mash that single button really fast. Nothing stops you mashing a single button on a pad or a stick.

And theres a pretty big difference in effort when you compare mashing a button rapidly to simply holding down a button, I mean come on.

Where as there's very little difference in effort to press 3 buttons that are beside eachother with 3 fingers versus 1 trigger button with a single finger thats on the same hand that does the motion inputs.

(Sorry if I come off a little blunt, I mean no disrespect to yea man. Btw I don't think either of us will be able to play each other this saterday as I just realised, as I still am only used to ps3 pad, and your on 360 mad catz pad, only way we could ever play is either on the pc version, which still hasnt arrived , or if someone has a ps3 mad catz pad lol Damn I can't wait to get a stick )

mr_kyle wrote: »

I am for banning of both button binding and use of turbos on any method of input, be it pad or stick. etc

Ah man I see where your coming from and all but this is kinda whats considered "arcade stick elitism". 'Punishing those ignorant pad users for even daring to use something thats not an arcade stick for a fighting game.' Theres a reason ppp and kkk's etc have been on console versions of SF for years. In other words I disagree

Kirby

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Turbo buttons have never really come on official console controller (Xbox 360/PS3 controller), what you're using is a 3rd party controller.

The madcatz TE, SE and pad are the official controller for SF4, which is the game in question. They are licensed by Capcom and the developers of the game were responsible for telling mad catz what the sticks were to be made of.

And all I was doing was pointing out the slight double standard surrounded some of the features about the game. No need to go to war over it lads

Owwmykneecap

Turbo would also help you get reversals and throws out of blockstun.

blag

I'm totally against turbo for reasons already gone over.

For Bison,it's make cr lk x 4 xx Scissors incredibly easy and thus any combo you want to add that into like any cross up into that.I've spent time learning that timing as well as other stuff like st lk x 3 > st RH,why should anyone have to skip over the learning part and just be able to do it with turbo?

Binding exists purely for pad players,and that's reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

The fact that there are 8 buttons on the stick is a non issue.There's a valid reason for that and that's that some prefere the japanese layout with the curved button layout and some prefere straight button layout like the American machines.

Dreddybajs

This thread is just going around in circles now imo. Both sides have put all the relevant points out and the vote is pretty definitive.

chopperbyrne

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It does exist in the arcade and console version, however some have been made easier in the consol version. To my knowledge in the arcade df,d,df is the shortcut for srk while on the console they made it even easier with df, df.

Nope, the DF, DF + P for an SRK is a myth. The game requires three directional inputs for an SRK. Go into training and be very precise with DF, DF + P (Have inputs visible) and you will not get an SRK.

K.O.Kiki

blag wrote: »

I'm totally against turbo for reasons already gone over.

For Bison,it's make cr lk x 4 xx Scissors incredibly easy and thus any combo you want to add that into like any cross up into that.I've spent time learning that timing as well as other stuff like st lk x 3 > st RH,why should anyone have to skip over the learning part and just be able to do it with turbo?

I'm pretty certain this was addressed:
Turbo is good for CHAINS, which cannot combo into a special move.
Turbo is bad for LINKS, which are what you learned.

Yreval

chopperbyrne wrote: »

The game requires three directional inputs for an SRK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHd6G-YG090

0:28.

Red350

Turbo is good for linking something which doesn't naturally chain, like ryu's crouching jab to crouching medium punch. It won't actually hit 1 frame links consistently though, as it doesn't input 60 times a second, but 2 frame links seem to hit 100% (this is stuff I tested when i got my stick, havn't used it since :P)

Anyway Kirby, with enough practice you won't need turbo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ4lmAFB7d4

Kirby

Dude has mad skills. Wonder how much his hand costs on the black market

mr_kyle

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Ah man I see where your coming from and all but this is kinda whats considered "arcade stick elitism". 'Punishing those ignorant pad users for even daring to use something thats not an arcade stick for a fighting game.' Theres a reason ppp and kkk's etc have been on console versions of SF for years. In other words I disagree

Please note that the ban is enforced regardless of controller choice. It is hardly elitism when it is enforced on both pads and sticks. Pressing 3 buttons on a pad is not difficult. But is definitely easier / harder depending on pad choice. But please not the key word there is choice, what the player choses to use.

The only other options are:

1 - Allow button binding for just pads players. But that introduces double standards.

2 - Allow button binding in general. This is even worse as it encourages lazy play.

Our best player up here uses a pad and doesn't use button bindings. Good players don't need to bind buttons.

*edit*
Sorry you don't like it. But out of the three choices a complete ban is clearly the lesser evil.

Kirby wrote: »

My arguement never changed. People claimed that using these features makes it easier to perform certain combo's. My arguement is, there are many features , which I listed, that make it easier to perform combo's and links. What makes this one different? My point was, if you ban one execution helping feature....why are the rest of them allowed?

Both turbo and button bindings are banned up here. What do you mean by why are the rest of them allowed? If you are talking about the in game features that you listed; there is nothing that can be done about them and even asking why I allow them when I can't do anything about them is a completely daft.

Azza

I'd be reluctant to ban a in game feature like bindings in SF IV which covers taunts, focus attack and throws. The advantage is very slight and no where near what turbo could potentially give a player. While it does make it marginally more easy to perform ex moves its extremely slight it is a bit handier for triple button moves like ultra. But when its the default setting in game its clearly designed for the home users on a console and I would not like to ban such a feature for the sake of handicapping newcomers not familiar with the un-written rules of fighting of games. New players to the scene might not know its kinda of a no no in the fighting games and used the feature as it was there by default so would assume its the de facto standard.

I'd have no such issues for a game that do not include binding as an in game feature.

Dreddybajs

Really the only reason I could think of banning binding is for moves that require charging PPP or KKK - EG with your little finger on the KKK bound button on stick, it's a lot easier to still pull off Fuerte's punch moves than if you're doing it without binds. This is true as well for boxer's TAP - though, as chopper tested, you can't use the kick buttons while holding down KKK, you can still use the punch buttons and your hand is in a far better position than someone holding down KKK on a six button stick.

bush

Does anyone know if evo allows binding? I think they do but not 100% sure.

chopperbyrne

They do.

From the evo site:

Can we use d-pad controllers?
Yes.

Are wireless controllers/arcade sticks allowed?
No.

Is button mapping allowed?
Yes.

Is Rapid Fire/Turbo allowed?
No.

Are converters allowed?
Yes.

Is there a XBOX360 to PS3 converter?
There is one that I can think of but it’s nothing worth mentioning.

Are custom arcade stick allowed?
Yes

K.O.Kiki

I'd really like to see the hands of someone like John Choi when he's playing ST Balrog - all those TAPs on 6 buttons! :eek:

mr_kyle

At Q-Con the rule was relaxed a bit, as Q-Con is supposed to be for fun rather than serious business. PPP and KKK were allowed so that the more casual player or newcomer could play more easily. As stated previously it is in the default settings. But double button bindings were not. I think someone unable to press 3 buttons with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs at their disposal is ridiculous as it stands. So a double button bind was definitely out of the question altogether.

A-Trak

Have just been messing around with Turbo in training mode.

Hondas crouch jab into fierce hands is insanely easy with turbo - cr lp and then simply hit fierce turbo.

Without it you need to piano 5 inputs spread across lp,mp & hp.
Pianoing HHS is crazy hard to land consistently (video here to see whats needed to piano HHS.)


I change my vote - allow turbo;)

Kirby

I tested it out yesterday at our meetup and Its worth noting that the TE stick's turbo is atleast twice as fast as the turbo from the pad. :eek: I never had a stick so I assumed it was about the same speed as on my pad...which isnt that fast. I can see why some of you were reporting piss easy links on the stick with it on.

Probably due to the increased production value and work that went into the sticks. Quality peice of kit the TE.

Azza

Kirby wrote:

Probably due to the increased production value and work that went into the sticks. Quality peice of kit the TE.

One of the screws fell out of mine on day 1

Cunny-Funt

@Mr Kyle

Sorry m8 but my god, your posts there do come off as stereotypical arcade stick elitism imo.

mr_kyle wrote: »

It is hardly elitism when it is enforced on both pads and sticks.

Of course it is, pressing those 3 buttons on pad versus a stick is a totally different process. This isnt a question about skill, only reason you have to press 3 buttons is due to sticking to a 'traditional' 6 button layout with arcades. Thus they ran out of buttons, and since pressing 3 buttons on a flat panel layout where 3 fingers can easily press them down at the same time requires no effort or skill this is no problem for stick users and so it was no big deal to add this.

Its totally different with a pad, and like it or not people are gonna be coming to these games FROM THE CONSOLES , which means learning it and getting into it using a range of different pads depending on the console they learn on. Sigh, & no just cause they're on the pad doesn't mean they're a scrubby casual player by default either, once again that's elitism.

mr_kyle wrote: »

Pressing 3 buttons on a pad is not difficult.

Well of course not if say... you wanna press just shoulder buttons or something for example, but not all the buttons/configs on pads are layed out in a way your hand can put 3 fingers cleanly on 3 buttons like you can with a stick.

Capcoms used the same control system on playtations for years now.

Its goes like this for ps3:

LP = square, MP = triangle, HP = R1

LK = X, MK = circle, HK = R2

To do ryus ultra I'd have to press my thumb in between square and triangle and try and press in the two buttons by the edges. While pressing R1 with my finger. This is no where near the same as pressing down 3 buttons that are side by side on a flat panel with 3 fingers.

With the joystick anyone can do it np, you'd have to be disabled not to be able to that consistently. Totally different with the pad. Possible of course but its not the same, its messy. Its not supposed to be messy, its supposed to be a clean and easy command that requires no effort to get off.

Thus capcom have given the option of ppp and kkk to pad users for years.

mr_kyle wrote: »

the key word there is choice, what the player choses to use.

Oh so because pad players choose to use the pads that came with their consoles, instead of forking out extra cash for a stick in the anticipation that they might one day get into fighting games they must by punished by the stick gods for daring to make such a choice.
Cause like you know... they could always switch to a stick if they wanted.. sure they're cheap as chips, are great for every other game, just as portable as a pad and best of all, you'll instantly be has good with it as you are with your pad....:pac:

These games are not designed JUST for arcade stick users any more. They are now and have been for a few years now.. designed for BOTH stick users and pad users, with different options for both so both can play the game how its meant to be played for their choice of controller.

mr_kyle wrote: »

1 - Allow button binding for just pads players. But that introduces double standards.

No it doesn't, its not a double standard. The game is just as much designed to be played with a pad + binded ppp and kkk as it is with a stick without that option. Its not a double standard.

mr_kyle wrote: »

2 - Allow button binding in general. This is even worse as it encourages lazy play.

Oh noooooooes. So a stick player gets used to using the two extra buttons on his TE for kkk and ppp. All he's doing his hurting his game or rather how his game will be if one day he goes to play it on a stick with only 6 buttons.

He's ****ing himself up there, that's his choice. But if he beats you in a match with his stick, its not cause he has those buttons binded. Thats for damn sure. So this argument doesn't even make sense to me. You wanna ban it for stick users for their own good eh?

mr_kyle wrote: »

Good players don't need to bind buttons.

Elitism at its finest. Your not good if you bind buttons, "you only beat me with that pad because of the haxors for having ppp and kkk binded, your a scrub" etc etc.

mr_kyle wrote: »

I think someone unable to press 3 buttons with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs at their disposal is ridiculous as it stands.

I think your constant refusal to acknowledge the fact that pad players generally use 4 fingers and 2 thumbs due to the fact that I dunno... they have to HOLD the damn thing, is pretty off the wall. I presume you picture us with it on our laps like stick users or something? Now that is ridiculous...

Anyway look I don't suspect I'm gonna enlighten you or change your opinion or whatever, so I'll leave it at that, I'm sorry if I came forward as being way too blunt. For the record, personally I'm going to be be getting a stick soon and look forward to learning on it, and will most likely learn to press down all 3 buttons for my ultras from the get go. But its arcade stick snobbery that's one of the reasons I've been put off for awhile and it grinds my gears as they say.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

NeoKubrick

Azza wrote: »

One of the screws fell out of mine on day 1

We're on the subject of the tournament stick, now, Azza. Keep up.


It's a ridiculous debate, but it's always nice to see people debating the merits of rules. Keeps a community healthy.

Kudos to whomever changed the name from the dire 'Irish Ranking Battles' to Inferno Ranbat, by the way.

Kirby

We should avoid getting into arguements if at all possible... so lets try and keep it low key.

If you examine any game, or sport of any kind you will see tools and technology used to make execution easier. Fighting games are no different. New sticks are produced with new features to make executing what you want easier. There really is no difference between in-game shortcuts for moves.....and two extra external buttons on your controller that you use as three punches.. Both are designed to do the same thing.

Tennis rackets used to be made of wood. Golf clubs were also made of wood. Football pitches are much better quality than in the old days.
The footballs used nowadays are much lighter so that shooting was easier. Because the more players on a pitch that can score, the better the game is. Bumpy pitches and 2 ton balls meant that sometimes when a player would try and shoot, he would mess it up. On a pristine pitch he can still cock up his shot......but one of the barriers is taken away by having a nice even surface.

Stuff like three punch buttons and bindings in games are no different. I'm sure the old guard or "elitists" bitched and moaned about improved metal golf clubs when they arrived too......and I'm sure they were "banned" for a time. But common sense prevailed and they became part of the rules. The better clubs won't make everyone Tiger Woods, It will simply help more people perform a good shot. He is still the best.....not because of his equipment, but because he's the best player.
None of these features play the game for you. Some peoples aversion to them is kind of silly.

Console characters are "banned" in most japanese tourneys. Why? Its nothing to do with fairness. Most of them play on arcade cabinets and don't have matchup experience aginst console characters. So they cater the rules to suit themselves. And thats their right. Its their tournament. But the simple reason is that they don't know how to use them.....therefore don't want anyone else to use them either. You can't dress that up as noble or fair. For example, say.... I dont use focus attacks....and everyone else does....they have an advantage over me. So I decide that In my tourney, Im banning them. I can do this because its my tourney...but im fooling nobody. This applies to many areas of this discussion. and it's worth thinking about.