UK Independence Party to become involved in the No campaign

AuRevoir

K-9 wrote: »

Not that line again.

Yep..it's that line again. You have your opinions & I have mine.;)

thebman

I think its great, best thing that could happen for the yes side.

SF will probably start calling for a yes vote now :P

Anyway yeah hypocrites like is clear to most other people on the thread. It will be interesting to play spot the UKIP logo on their leaflet. I imagine it won't be very big.

thebman

AuRevoir wrote: »

The consequences for Ireland is that we remain under the Nice Treaty, as will the rest of Europe. Anything else you say is blatant scaremongering.;)

Ah the close your eyes, cover your ears and scream la la la la la nothing bad will happen defense?

lol.

conchubhar1

can anyone give me any reason why sinn féin would be against ukip adding their funding and support?

no, thought not. They are not the DUP or jim allister.



right so you would not advocate keeping the status qou? the eu as it is now, is that bad? why are we still members then?

LOL - good argumentative tool there

dlofnep

Can't say I welcome the UKIP's addition to the no campaign. I think this should be decided by the people of Ireland alone. And while I advocate a no vote, I don't think that the UKIP's reasons for voting no are the same as mine. They are anti-immigration, and wish to break away from Europe. I am pro-European and in favour of fair immigration laws.

I think the EU is a good thing - but it should be more of a convenience between fellow nations, more than 2 or 3 nations dictating the rest of Europe.

utick

thebman wrote: »

Ah the close your eyes, cover your ears and scream la la la la la nothing bad will happen defense?

lol.

no,no, no thats the ploy from the yes side, vote yes and all our problems will go away, nothing but more blatent lies from the yes side, most on the no side seem to accept the economy will remain bad regardless of weather this is passed or not

meglome

AuRevoir wrote: »

Ireland voted No already and their No vote wasn't accepted by the EU. Nothing democratic in that then from a so called democratic organisation.

The problem with this is it's not only just your opinion but not even true. The EU has respected our vote otherwise the Lisbon treaty would have been ratified by now.

Our government on the other hand has asked people why they voted No and got guarantees. The very same law that allows us to have referenda is the same law that allows us to have more than one. Unfortunately you can't only like the law when it suits you.

dlofnep

meglome wrote: »

The EU has respected our vote otherwise the Lisbon treaty would have been ratified by now.

Then why did Sarkozy come to Ireland to put pressure on the Irish government to re-run a referendum? Is forcing a re-run of the referendum respecting our vote?

ixtlan

dlofnep wrote: »

Can't say I welcome the UKIP's addition to the no campaign. I think this should be decided by the people of Ireland alone. And while I advocate a no vote, I don't think that the UKIP's reasons for voting no are the same as mine. They are anti-immigration, and wish to break away from Europe. I am pro-European and in favour of fair immigration laws.

I think the EU is a good thing - but it should be more of a convenience between fellow nations, more than 2 or 3 nations dictating the rest of Europe.

There in a nutshell is the problem with a no vote. You have your reasons, others have their reasons. If there is a no how do you know that the result will not be some kind of splintering of the EU into those who want closer integration and those that do not? How do you know that Ireland will not want to block immigration to appease many no voters (though not you).

We really have no idea where the EU will go in the event of Lisbon failing.

Ix.

K-9

dlofnep wrote: »

Then why did Sarkozy come to Ireland to put pressure on the Irish government to re-run a referendum? Is forcing a re-run of the referendum respecting our vote?

And the Czech president came here too. You don't hear protest about that though and it continuously being brought up!

Martin 2

conchubhar1 wrote: »

can anyone give me any reason why sinn féin would be against ukip adding their funding and support?

no, thought not. They are not the DUP or jim allister.

Are you serious? Well here it is from Mary Lou Mc Donald on the Sinn Fein website

UKIP not welcome in Irish politics – McDonald

Speaking in response to the news that the British UKIP party intend to send leaflets calling for Irish voters to reject the Lisbon Treaty, Sinn Fein Vice President Mary Lou McDonald said UKIP has no mandate, no support and no place in Irish politics. Ms. McDonald said Nigel Farage’s party should play no active part in the Irish Lisbon referendum campaign.

McDonald said:

“The Lisbon Treaty is about the future of Europe. Sinn Féin welcomes and encourages debate from all countries on each member states view of the Treaty.

“Sinn Féin does not object to people from across the EU coming to Ireland and expressing their views on the Lisbon Treaty, whether they are for or against. But it is another matter entirely for individuals or organisations from other member states to seek to influence the electorate and become active participants in the campaign.

“UKIP has no mandate, no support and no place in Irish politics. Nigel Farage’s party should play no active part in the Irish Lisbon referendum campaign. We don’t want their kind of right wing politics in Ireland and they should stop interfering in what is a matter for Irish citizens in this state.” ENDS

To encourage the peace process I have voted for them (SF) occasionally, however if they bring down the treaty and cause Ireland to be isolated in Europe then they will never get a vote from me again…

dlofnep

ixtlan wrote: »

We really have no idea where the EU will go in the event of Lisbon failing.

The same could be said about the Lisbon passing - We don't know where the EU will be in 10-20 years, and won't see the implications of it passing until then probably.

dlofnep

Martin 2 wrote: »

To encourage the peace process I have voted for them (SF) occasionally, however if they bring down the treaty and cause Ireland to be isolated in Europe then they will never get a vote from me again…

With all due respect - the Lisbon treaty was rejected by the people of Ireland, and not only SF as a party. Voters across Europe have rejected a similar proposal. SF takes a stance on as part of a no campaign, illustrate their views and it is up to the public to make a concious decision.

If Lisbon fails again and you disagree with it - you should take that up with the voting demographic of Ireland, and not single out a single party.

Ireland will no be isolated. France wasn't, neither was Holland. I don't buy this isolation nonsense. We won't be kicked out of the EU. So how exactly will we be isolated? There won't be any economic sanctions?

We should vote yes or no on the treaty based on the merits or lack of merits on it, and not succumb to bully-boy tactics - where as the only choice is to vote yes, otherwise Europe will shun us.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

With all due respect - the Lisbon treaty was rejected by the people of Ireland, and not only SF as a party. Voters across Europe have rejected a similar proposal. SF takes a stance on as part of a no campaign, illustrate their views and it is up to the public to make a concious decision.

If Lisbon fails again and you disagree with it - you should take that up with the voting demographic of Ireland, and not single out a single party.

Ireland will no be isolated. France wasn't, neither was Holland. I don't buy this isolation nonsense. We won't be kicked out of the EU. So how exactly will we be isolated? There won't be any economic sanctions?

We should vote yes or no on the treaty based on the merits or lack of merits on it, and not succumb to bully-boy tactics - where as the only choice is to vote yes, otherwise Europe will shun us.

neither France nor Netherlands voted on the Lisbon treaty ...

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

neither France nor Netherlands voted on the Lisbon treaty ...

I never stated that they did. How about reading what I write next time, before you reply?

conchubhar1

hhmm interesting speech by mary lou there


i must admit i know little of ukip except from europe - i dont know their policies at home.

anyway they are irrelevant - they can send leaflets people can choose to read, believe or whatever they want with them

more views the better for discussiom imo.

Martin 2

dlofnep wrote: »

With all due respect - the Lisbon treaty was rejected by the people of Ireland, and not only SF as a party. Voters across Europe have rejected a similar proposal. SF takes a stance on as part of a no campaign, illustrate their views and it is up to the public to make a concious decision.

If Lisbon fails again and you disagree with it - you should take that up with the voting demographic of Ireland, and not single out a single party.

Ireland will no be isolated. France wasn't, neither was Holland. I don't buy this isolation nonsense. We won't be kicked out of the EU. So how exactly will we be isolated? There won't be any economic sanctions?

We should vote yes or no on the treaty based on the merits or lack of merits on it, and not succumb to bully-boy tactics - where as the only choice is to vote yes, otherwise Europe will shun us.

Of course we won’t be kicked out the EU and there won’t be any economic sanctions. I’m talking about self-imposed isolation, not so much Europe abandoning us as us abandoning Europe, I’m talking about Ireland taking itself out of the mainstream European political, social and economic movement.

As for the treaty, I think it will be very beneficial for Ireland and Europe; as an engineer I especially like the fact that Energy and Environment become greater EU competencies and that the treaty will commit the EU to a greater role in fighting climate change. I think this will help Europe grow the green energy technology market and that will create a lot of jobs in design, development and manufacture, already a lot of the IT’s and Universities are offering courses and options in green technology, if the EU policies are successful then the graduates of these courses will have more chances of finding employment.

.

meglome

conchubhar1 wrote: »

hhmm interesting speech by mary lou there


i must admit i know little of ukip except from europe - i dont know their policies at home.

anyway they are irrelevant - they can send leaflets people can choose to read, believe or whatever they want with them

more views the better for discussiom imo.

You would agree there was been a huge amount of screaming from the No side about Sarkozy opening his big mouth? But these same people seem strangely quiet now that we are to expect a right wing British party to directly interfere in our election. I personally would have preferred that Sarkozy stayed out of it and even though UKIP will probably get more people to vote Yes I'd still like them to stay out of it.

free to prosper

It is the Europe of Freedom and Democracy group in the European Parliament group who are doing the Lisbon information leaflet.

UKIP alone are not involved in distributing any leaflets

The Irish Times knew this of course - but we expect distortion from a Yes campaign sheet.

SF - who prop up the British government in the Six Counties should read and think before they talk the next time.

They need to base their assessments on facts, not on Yes side spin.

And principles apart from anti-English racism.

Mrmoe

I wish that all external influences would keep their nose out of this referendum, they are not helping either cause.

free to prosper

How do we know SF stance is based on opportunism and anti-English racism?

Look at today's Irish Times:

Saturday, September 5, 2009

No vote urged by German, Greek, French, US activists


SHANNON PROTEST: LEFT-WING ACTIVISTS and anti-Lisbon Treaty campaigners from several EU member states will gather at Shannon airport today to put forward their arguments against the treaty and voice their opposition to closer co-operation between the EU and Nato.

Among the speakers at today’s gathering are: Socialist Party MEP Joe Higgins; former Sinn Féin MEP Mary Lou McDonald; Cllr Richard Boyd Barrett, chair of the Irish Anti-War Movement; and former MEP Patricia McKenna of the People’s Movement.

At a press conference yesterday, former German MEP Tobias Pfluger described the Lisbon Treaty as promoting a “militaristic, neo-liberal” agenda that would “change the EU absolutely”.

Reiner Braun, a German lawyer and activist, agreed. “Ireland is our hope that militarism will not be the future for Europe,” he said. “This is a battle for Europe, not against Europe.” Similar views were aired by French, Greek and American activists present.

Ms McDonald predicted Irish neutrality would again play a major role in the referendum.

SF just playing to the gallery on the Freedom and Democracy leaflet

dlofnep

free to prosper wrote: »

How do we know SF stance is based on opportunism and anti-English racism?

Nonsense, there is not one IOTA of anti-english racism within SF. Many activists are English. They aren't even anti-Unionist - The 2008 Ard Fheis had an orange-man on stage, in his sash and received a hugh applause.

What has someone from Germany got to do with anti-English racism?

FruitLover

free to prosper wrote: »

Grovelling Yesmen love to work for an empire - any empire will do.

You're a beret-wearing arts student, aren't you...

meglome

dlofnep wrote: »

Nonsense, there is not one IOTA of anti-english racism within SF. Many activists are English. They aren't even anti-Unionist - The 2008 Ard Fheis had an orange-man on stage, in his sash and received a hugh applause.

Ah come on now. I've nothing specifically against SF but that statement is funny.

meglome

free to prosper wrote: »

Yesmen are quite happy for all and sundry from self aggrandising EU institutions to come and get involved in an Irish referendum.

Ukip as a party is not get directly involved in anything in Ireland. As is normal, an EU parliamentary group - Freedom and Independence group will fund any activity in Ireland.
THis is normal practice - many EU parliament groups are funding Lisbon referendum activities in Ireland.
Given that the Yes side is outspending the No side at least 10 to 1, I'm personally quite happy to see some No side funding come in.

The Yes side know that Lisbon has no benefits for Ireland so they can only move forward by slandering everybody on the no side and dishonestly spouting about membership of the EU - when it is not in doubt in any way.

Its also interesting that the parts of the Republic which voted UNionist in the 1918? election also has the highest Yes to Lisbon in the last referendum.
A comparative map of vote in both elections would be enlightening.

Places like Dun Laoghaire which were UK Unionist are now Euro Unionist.

Grovelling Yesmen love to work for an empire - any empire will do.

You insult my sense of Republicanism and Nationalism. You insult me personally in a number of other ways and then you whinge that the Yes voters are slandering No voters, seriously. I have many good reason to vote Yes but it makes me very happy to be on the opposite side to you. I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of your points directly as they're such crap.

K-9

OK, this Yes side are funded 10 times more than the No side point.

Anybody know COIR'S funding?

Any figures available for the last referendum?

conchubhar1

I do not know how much cóir spent.


But they were succesful and put whatever money they did spend to ''good'' use.



Maybe the yes side can learn from that instead of bitching....and empty vague slogans about europe, this is not a referendum to leave europe.

meglome

conchubhar1 wrote: »

Maybe the yes side can learn from that instead of bitching....and empty vague slogans about europe, this is not a referendum to leave europe.

I agree with you the Yes campaign is shaping up to be pathetic again. Unfortunately for them a lot of the Lisbon treaty is very dull and unless they resort to the tactics of Cóir i.e making stuff up, it's going to be difficult to match the No side. Still they could have done a better job.

K-9

conchubhar1 wrote: »

I do not know how much cóir spent.


But they were succesful and put whatever money they did spend to ''good'' use.



Maybe the yes side can learn from that instead of bitching....and empty vague slogans about europe, this is not a referendum to leave europe.

I agree, but why use this 10 to 1 point if we don't know how much COIR spent.

The YES side can argue the No side spent more last time. Pointless!

For once, I think the expenditure point can't be used this time.

Thank You Declan!

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

I do not know how much cóir spent.

But they were succesful and put whatever money they did spend to ''good'' use.

Maybe the yes side can learn from that instead of bitching....and empty vague slogans about europe, this is not a referendum to leave europe.

Are you suggesting that the yes side should simply tell whatever lies they think might persuade voters?