Attitude of the yes campaign

skelliser

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes it is amusing having only far right and far left parties come together, just shows that when you go out far enough on the fringe you come around full circle

Hang on now, and what do the yes parties represent! fg/ff/lab

ei.sdraob wrote: »

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

Stark

skelliser wrote: »

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

Well it's not the same thing as saying the majority of the electorate voted for something. Unfortunately as a rule of thumb, 20% of the electorate will always vote against something in order to vote against the established order (Hence the pundits saying we needed at least 40% turnout in order for the Yes vote to pass). You're then facing a war against apathy in order to get the remaining 80% out to vote. A lot of people weren't bothered voting Yes because no-one could give them a reason that was sexy enough for them to take to the polls. Not to mention the students who didn't bother changing their registered voting address so they could vote while they were in college. Hopefully having the vote on a Friday this time round will mean greater turnout from the colleges.

ei.sdraob

skelliser wrote: »

Hang on now, and what do the yes parties represent! fg/ff/lab

center right for the first 2 (in fact theres feck all difference between ff and fg)
and center left for lab

my political views fall right between lab and fg

skelliser wrote: »

this old adage, turnout is neither here nor there, if people cant be bothered to vote will then thats tough, the people spoke, get over it, i accepted it and i voted yes

he said 50% of the electorate

which is a clear lie

unless the rules of basic mathematics are different in your universe

skelliser

My point is the turnout doesnt matter, this is the system we have and by and large it works. The people spoke, maybe not all off them but they had there chance and decided not to take it.
Thats neither the fault of the yes or no campaigns.


This is completly irrelevent.

patrickthomas

ei.sdraob wrote: »

im sick of the NO side telling lies, not backing it up with references and ignoring basic facts

Be sick, be very very sick, there is people on the no side telling lies, it's ireland get over it, it is how this country has been run for decades, on lies, and be wrong again, this yes argument is not working and falling apart as I watch.

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

Stark

patrickthomas wrote: »

Be sick, be very very sick, there is people on the no side telling lies, it's ireland get over it, it is how this country has been run for decades, on lies, and be wrong again, this yes argument is not working and falling apart as I watch.

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

Well you weren't sure whether the abortion and prostitution myth was bs or truth. Now while you might have taken the time to ask questions, what about your friend who was spreading the bs? There will be many people this time round as there were last time round who will vote based on a piece of fiction.

Zuiderzee

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes it is amusing having only far right and far left parties come together, just shows that when you go out far enough on the fringe you come around full circle

Very true, and I'm rapidly being bunged in with them. And as one goes to the centre the differences dissappear.
Labour I can get, but the difference between FF and FG, dont get it.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Then what are they doing sending leaflets to Irish households?
dont you find it a tiny bit ironic a party that insists it doesnt like interference in internal affairs from EU turns around and interferes in affairs of another country?

Absolutley, they should not involve themselves in our politics, and neither should German ambassadors or French Presidents, current or former.
The last English people we ever listened to were St. Patrick and Jack Charlton.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

~25% actually the turnout was about ~50% of electorate, please get the figures straight

Point taken. More than half the people who bothered their ass' and got out and voted, rejected the Lisbon Treaty.
But apathy is to the Governments advantage, thats why we never see them doing anything to improve participation.

The government have lost, and unlike Ganley, they refuse to take No for an answer

ei.sdraob

patrickthomas wrote: »

Do you seriously think that at this stage we can not tell the bs from the truth, we have had enough of it for long enough.

judging by the amounts of people who voted for Declan Ganley (and lets not forget Dana)

or for that matter judging by the fact that FF got reelected

just highlights the sad state of political awareness in the electorate and people not being able to tell bs from truth

My point is the turnout doesnt matter, this is the system we have and by and large it works. The people spoke, maybe not all off them but they had there chance and decided not to take it.
Thats neither the fault of the yes or no campaigns.


This is completly irrelevent.

please not that ZZ said "50 % of electorate" and i nailed him for that

yes the system has worked perfectly

* the people have spoken
* the matter went back to EU
* issues relevant to the people like commissioner were addressed
* we are being asked again to vote on treaty + changes

now please explain to us how the above event are any way undemocratic?

Zuiderzee

ei.sdraob wrote: »

he said 50% of the electorate

Just saw this posting after typing in the last one.
I did not lie, so dont accuse me of that, what I wanted to say was that more than half of those who bothered to vote (i.e. the electorate) said No.

But as usual, we have gone off on a tangent, showing as always there are Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

I dont think you need to be so pedantic all the time, we already have one poster who is an expert at that - so please chill

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

The government have lost, and unlike Ganley, they refuse to take No for an answer

the Government was elected by the people (in national elections)

Declan Ganley was not elected by the people (in eu elections)

see the difference? apples and oranges

the people "have spoken" and he lost, sweet irony

ChocolateSauce

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

patrickthomas

Stark wrote: »

Well you weren't sure whether the abortion and prostitution myth was bs or truth. Now while you might have taken the time to ask questions, what about your friend who was spreading the bs? There will be many people this time round as there were last time round who will vote based on a piece of fiction.

Stark, Even more so than last time people from both sides will vote yes and no for the wrong reasons.

This has now for a whole lot of people becoming a vote on the government and they know it, they have disgraced us behaving like Zimbabwean despots driving around in stretch limos in europe, an embarrassment! an infrastructure lagging behind, an ex-taiosach corrupt again, jesus the list just goes on and on and on......

I think the people of the eu if they really give a damm about us will forgive us for trying to remove a corrupt and incompentant government. if the eu is all about us helping each other than they will understand that an idiot swanning around europe on taxpayers money is not a reflection of what i am or stand for.

skelliser

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now please explain to us how the above event are any way undemocratic?

i dont need to explain anything! nobody said it was undemocratic!
who said it was undemocratic?!

ei.sdraob

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Just saw this posting after typing in the last one.
I did not lie, so dont accuse me of that, what I wanted to say was that more than half of those who bothered to vote (i.e. the electorate) said No.

let me post again exactly what you said

Zuiderzee wrote: »

over 50% of the Irish electorate said no last time

note the word electorate

you did not say "voters"
you did not say "those who bothered to vote"

theres quite a difference when it comes to politics


you got caught with your pants down admit it, and whats funny is how some posters jumped on it after it, defending an obvious(deliberate?) **** up

Zuiderzee wrote: »

But as usual, we have gone off on a tangent, showing as always there are Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

I dont think you need to be so pedantic all the time, we already have one poster who is an expert at that - so please chill

no one went on a tangent, the record has to be set straight, its little lies like that which i will not allow to pass as they add up to paint a picture which is different from reality

skelliser

ei.sdraob i think you need to get back on topic, if you want to discuss turnout and the electorate i think you should start your own thread.

patrickthomas

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

Can you provide a link for this please?

eightyfish

skelliser wrote: »

Yes campaigners have been painting an image that all no voters are crazy, stupid and ignorant.

And? SF, Libertas, COIR, etc. All crazy, stupid and ignorant IMO. Who else has posters up?

All the no side can say is "it's the same treaty" and "don't trust politicians". Of course it's the same treaty! The reason they didn't have to change the treaty to accommodate the fears of the no voters last time (abortion, conscription, taxes) is because they weren't even in the thing.

And now we have the benefit of a permanent commissioner on top of that.

Stark

patrickthomas wrote: »

I think the people of the eu if they really give a damm about us will forgive us for trying to remove a corrupt and incompentant government. if the eu is all about us helping each other than they will understand that an idiot swanning around europe on taxpayers money is not a reflection of what i am or stand for.

Actually they won't. Ireland has spent years building up goodwill that has served us well at the EU negotiating table. I don't think the EU are being bullies; they have tried to respect our genuine concerns and work amendments based on our fears into the guarantees on Lisbon. However, if we turn around and vote no and tell them the reason is we're playing parochial politics and want to spite our home government, then we lose a portion of that goodwill that we've worked hard to achieve. Is there anything in the Treaty that makes you feel that's a worthwhile trade-off?

W1ct0ry

Bob_Harris wrote: »

No it won't. In fact, if we vote No, nothing happens, as we still live under the previous treaties.

This treaty is going through, with or without Ireland. Its not like we contribute anything to the EU. All we do is take its money.

We have an external debt of $1,841,000,000,000,000 The highest amount per person of any country in the world(bar monaco for some reason). I dont think the EU will cry when they kick us out.

We are complaining that this treaty will reduce our vote in Europe, it should, we are a tiny country with no economic or military power.

ei.sdraob

skelliser wrote: »

i dont need to explain anything! nobody said it was undemocratic!
who said it was undemocratic?!

why the NO side of course... over and over we get posts like that


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637882&highlight=undemocratic


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61053565&postcount=12

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61265286&postcount=3

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61266009&postcount=14

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61902582&postcount=1913


theres so many other examples that im not gonna waste anymore time

Stark

W1ct0ry wrote: »

We are complaining that this treaty will reduce our vote in Europe, it should, we are a tiny country with no economic or military power.

From what I've read of the treaty though, representation is weighted in favour of small countries. It's not like we're voting against ourselves.

marco_polo

patrickthomas wrote: »

Stark, Even more so than last time people from both sides will vote yes and no for the wrong reasons.

This has now for a whole lot of people becoming a vote on the government and they know it, they have disgraced us behaving like Zimbabwean despots driving around in stretch limos in europe, an embarrassment! an infrastructure lagging behind, an ex-taiosach corrupt again, jesus the list just goes on and on and on......

I think the people of the eu if they really give a damm about us will forgive us for trying to remove a corrupt and incompentant government. if the eu is all about us helping each other than they will understand that an idiot swanning around europe on taxpayers money is not a reflection of what i am or stand for.

You think that that Europe will be understanding that we are rejecting a treaty that was the results of over seven years of negotiations on the basis of attempting to remove the Government?

Looking at the latest poll numbers for the Greens and FF, who are staring at decimation if a GE was held now, the odds of a GE in the near future are nearly nil.

Alot of people keep and claiming that nobody voted no for ridiculous reasons such as abortion, tax, neutrality etc. And yet here we have a number of people freely admiting that the will vote no for equally ridiculous reasons on this thread.

skelliser

@ei.sdraob sorry but no one on this thread said it was undemocratic, you have gone off on a tangent on your own

now can we get back on topic please

patrickthomas

Stark wrote: »

Actually they won't. Ireland has spent years building up goodwill that has served us well at the EU negotiating table. I don't think the EU are being bullies; they have tried to respect our genuine concerns and work amendments based on our fears into the guarantees on Lisbon. However, if we turn around and vote no and tell them the reason is we're playing parochial politics and want to spite our home government, then we lose a portion of that goodwill that we've worked hard to achieve. Is there anything in the Treaty that makes you feel that's a worthwhile trade-off?

We have been very good at going with our hand out like beggars, not a whole lot of pride there, and very good at pocketing the proceeds, not a lot of pride there either, this is no longer about the eu and the eu knows that, this about a majority of voters who are completely fed up of being run by corruption. the eu looks at ireland and sees a shower of morons driving around in limousenes like a third world country that has got a few bullies complete with bling and swaggering attitude.

As another poster has sugested the lower educated voted no, i have to see a link to that to believe it, but that is the attitude, that the lower educated do not understand, not much sign of intilligence in making a statement like that is there?

Sam Vimes

patrickthomas wrote: »

As another poster has sugested the lower educated voted no, i have to see a link to that to believe it, but that is the attitude, that the lower educated do not understand, not much sign of intilligence in making a statement like that is there?

I don't know if this is a link to intelligence exactly but take a look at this poll from the atheist & agnostic forum. As sink points out in the thread, "Maybe Atheist & Agnostics have a better bull**** filter then the general population."
Yes|48|80.00%
No|7|11.67%
Not going to vote|5|8.33%


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670032

I think it's interesting anyway

edit: and looking at the people who voted no on the poll, I don't think I've ever seen any of them post on the forum except for shooterSF

meglome

patrickthomas wrote: »

This really gets me hot under the collar, Who do you think you are talking to when you make a statement like this? Do you think we do not understand percentage points. I am shocked when i see this attitude from the yes side, how dare you?

Hold on there now. I have seen in here on numerous occasions the No side saying the 'majority' of the electorate voted No. Since it has been pointed out on an equally numerous number of times that only 25%(ish) of the electorate voted No I'll have to assume the No side are very forgetful or they know full well they are lying.

marco_polo

patrickthomas wrote: »

We have been very good at going with our hand out like beggars, not a whole lot of pride there, and very good at pocketing the proceeds, not a lot of pride there either, this is no longer about the eu and the eu knows that, this about a majority of voters who are completely fed up of being run by corruption. the eu looks at ireland and sees a shower of morons driving around in limousenes like a third world country that has got a few bullies complete with bling and swaggering attitude.

As another poster has sugested the lower educated voted no, i have to see a link to that to believe it, but that is the attitude, that the lower educated do not understand, not much sign of intilligence in making a statement like that is there?

Comprehensive Analysis is here:

http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Publications/Post%20Lisbon%20Treaty%20Referendum%20Research%20Findings/final%20-%20post%20lisbon%20treaty%20referendum%20research%20findings.pdf

skelliser

look, on the day of the vote a certain amount of the electorate turned out.
The majority of those people voted no.

End of story.

ei.sdraob

skelliser wrote: »

@ei.sdraob sorry but no one on this thread said it was undemocratic, you have gone off on a tangent on your own

now can we get back on topic please

good so the next a NO sider who posts another rant along them lines like

the people have spoken, bleh bleh, dey took our democracy, bleh bleh, why are we being asked to vote

can I reffer them to you for re-programming?

meglome

patrickthomas wrote: »

We have been very good at going with our hand out like beggars, not a whole lot of pride there, and very good at pocketing the proceeds, not a lot of pride there either, this is no longer about the eu and the eu knows that, this about a majority of voters who are completely fed up of being run by corruption. the eu looks at ireland and sees a shower of morons driving around in limousenes like a third world country that has got a few bullies complete with bling and swaggering attitude.

Any of that the EU's fault or the Lisbon treaty's fault?

patrickthomas wrote: »

As another poster has sugested the lower educated voted no, i have to see a link to that to believe it, but that is the attitude, that the lower educated do not understand, not much sign of intilligence in making a statement like that is there?

Well maybe the poorer educated people are more easily lied to. Which was a question that was raised about the positioning of the Cóir posters, in more working lass areas.