Attitude of the yes campaign

Sam Vimes

Stark wrote: »

Do you think they would have responded kindly the government of France and the Netherlands if their response to the constitution was "sorry, we have no intention of doing you the courtesy of reading this. Please go back and do us up a document from scratch".

....which we will then not read and ask you to make us up another one. Isn't this fun :rolleyes:

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

And yet here - on these very forums - we have people saying "I'm voting No to get FF out", "I'm voting No because of NAMA", "I'm voting No because Brian Cowen's dog bit me", "I'm voting No because Yes people annoy me", "I'm voting No because I believe that other people would have voted No", "I'm voting No because the EU stole our fish". And that's without going for a dip in politics.ie, where people are voting No because of the light-bulb ban, or the Habitats Directive, or because aliens told them to.

I think you have to face the facts that people are voting No for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the Treaty. If you're not, I congratulate you, but you're not everyone who votes No - you're just you.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You final paragraph is what vexes me. From my ppoint of view there is the treaty and the process the treaty is a part of.

The treaty itself does not give Ireland a better say in Europe. It gives us a say proportionate to our population. You know the size of that. If I am pro European and democratic I do not see this as a bad thing and can accept that we will loose some control but generally for the common good. Now 'rumour' would be such a lovely guy to do that, unfortunately I am some what more pragmatic. How much are we ceeding, for the answer to that I look at the direction of Europe from 1950's to now. Who has led this process and where is it going?
Nothing here is particulary of concern except for its protection against future mailgn interests. I have 'preached' somewhat on this before:rolleyes:

However this all has to be put against a scenario that we now owe Europe so much money, will I and my children now have to pay taxes to pay the debt for our elevated public sector salaries. The ECB are paying these salaries today and a yes vote will mean this will continue. This is not right. Rewarding these imbeciles is not right. They have brought nothing but shame on our country. One reason to vote yes is that with further integration (this is not current thinking and may be contrary to your predictions) our government will have standards imposed on it, as frankly it appears they are unable to govern themselves.

The solution I have currently is to vote yes, emigrate (before the professional exodus) and watch the IMF decimate the country.:(

Keewee6

i am voting no "specifically" on the treaty - i have no time for FF but i dont buy the "vote no and the gov will fall " maybe it will maybe it wont - but im voting no as its the same treaty

PopeBuckfastXVI

rumour wrote: »

However this all has to be put against a scenario that we now owe Europe so much money, will I and my children now have to pay taxes to pay the debt for our elevated public sector salaries. The ECB are paying these salaries today and a yes vote will mean this will continue.

Hang on, so if something is happening without Lisbon being in force, are you claiming that continuing to not ratify Lisbon will change stop that thing happening?

You'll have to step me through the logic of that one please, I'm lost?

PopeBuckfastXVI

Keewee6 wrote: »

i am voting no "specifically" on the treaty - i have no time for FF but i dont buy the "vote no and the gov will fall " maybe it will maybe it wont - but im voting no as its the same treaty

Why did you vote 'no' the first time?

marco_polo

rumour wrote: »

You final paragraph is what vexes me. From my ppoint of view there is the treaty and the process the treaty is a part of.

The treaty itself does not give Ireland a better say in Europe. It gives us a say proportionate to our population. You know the size of that. If I am pro European and democratic I do not see this as a bad thing and can accept that we will loose some control but generally for the common good. Now 'rumour' would be such a lovely guy to do that, unfortunately I am some what more pragmatic. How much are we ceeding, for the answer to that I look at the direction of Europe from 1950's to now. Who has led this process and where is it going?
Nothing here is particulary of concern except for its protection against future mailgn interests. I have 'preached' somewhat on this before:rolleyes:

However this all has to be put against a scenario that we now owe Europe so much money, will I and my children now have to pay taxes to pay the debt for our elevated public sector salaries. The ECB are paying these salaries today and a yes vote will mean this will continue. This is not right. Rewarding these imbeciles is not right. They have brought nothing but shame on our country. One reason to vote yes is that with further integration (this is not current thinking and may be contrary to your predictions) our government will have standards imposed on it, as frankly it appears they are unable to govern themselves.

The solution I have currently is to vote yes, emigrate (before the professional exodus) and watch the IMF decimate the country.:(

What does Lisbon or indeed EU membership have to do with our rates of public sector pay and the amount of National Debt we run up? The only effect that EU membership has on any of this is the address of the bank.

The member states have always led the process and always will. It is they and they alone who will decide where on any future direction of the EU .

force eleven

W1ct0ry wrote: »

Voting No because of Fianna Fail is what happened last time. And hopefully people will not do it again. This is an EU referendum what Finna Fail have to say about it means nothing.

If Ireland get kicked out of Europe it is the end of this country. And since all anyone does is complain about the stupid things the Irish government do, I dont see how giving some power to the EU is a bad thing.

Voting yes to this will have no noticeable effect on the running of our country. Voting No will have a devastating effect.

Stop voting for petty reasons. And vote on the treaty.

Since when are Ireland going to kicked out of Europe for voting No??? It is this ignorance which will drive many more to vote No.Ireland will not be kicked out, nor will there be a 'devatating effect' - surely we are already suffering devastating effects of poor financial judgement by successive governments and greed by bankers which will tie our hands behind our backs financially for a generation to come.Nothing to do with a so called Treaty whatsoever.

The Lisbon Treaty will do nothing for the 400,000 plus unemployed - that I guarantee. It will take a complete change of government and thinking to get us moving again. Hopefully this Treaty nonsense will be defeated, the government will fall, and we can at last have our proper say.

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

....which we will then not read and ask you to make us up another one. Isn't this fun :rolleyes:

And here it is with a new cover, some extra guarantees we can't include in the treaty:p

STFU and vote yes so I can keep the money rolling from the ECB. Now get out of the way it's friday and free bar time in leinster house.:cool:

LOL

marco_polo

Keewee6 wrote: »

i am voting no "specifically" on the treaty - i have no time for FF but i dont buy the "vote no and the gov will fall " maybe it will maybe it wont - but im voting no as its the same treaty

Have you read the whole treaty in the past twenty minutes or something, because the reason was no means no then.

Stark

rumour wrote: »

You final paragraph is what vexes me. From my ppoint of view there is the treaty and the process the treaty is a part of.

The treaty itself does not give Ireland a better say in Europe. It gives us a say proportionate to our population. You know the size of that. If I am pro European and democratic I do not see this as a bad thing and can accept that we will loose some control but generally for the common good. Now 'rumour' would be such a lovely guy to do that, unfortunately I am some what more pragmatic. How much are we ceeding, for the answer to that I look at the direction of Europe from 1950's to now. Who has led this process and where is it going?
Nothing here is particulary of concern except for its protection against future mailgn interests. I have 'preached' somewhat on this before:rolleyes:

An Irish person's vote is still worth far more than a German person's vote.

rumour wrote:

However this all has to be put against a scenario that we now owe Europe so much money, will I and my children now have to pay taxes to pay the debt for our elevated public sector salaries. The ECB are paying these salaries today and a yes vote will mean this will continue. This is not right. Rewarding these imbeciles is not right. They have brought nothing but shame on our country. One reason to vote yes is that with further integration (this is not current thinking and may be contrary to your predictions) our government will have standards imposed on it, as frankly it appears they are unable to govern themselves.

The solution I have currently is to vote yes, emigrate (before the professional exodus) and watch the IMF decimate the country.:(

Irish public salaries are much higher than the EU average. This is Ireland's **** up, not Europe's. Alas, it's looking we'll have a Labour government after the next election, which means the unions gain even more of a stranglehold on the country

marco_polo

force eleven wrote: »

Since when are Ireland going to kicked out of Europe for voting No??? It is this ignorance which will drive many more to vote No.Ireland will not be kicked out, nor will there be a 'devatating effect' - surely we are already suffering devastating effects of poor financial judgement by successive governments and greed by bankers which will tie our hands behind our backs financially for a generation to come.Nothing to do with a so called Treaty whatsoever.

The Lisbon Treaty will do nothing for the 400,000 plus unemployed - that I guarantee. It will take a complete change of government and thinking to get us moving again. Hopefully this Treaty nonsense will be defeated, the government will fall, and we can at last have our proper say.

On what?

rumour

marco_polo wrote: »

What does Lisbon or indeed EU membership have to do with our rates of public sector pay and the amount of National Debt we run up? The only effect that EU membership has on any of this is the address of the bank.
.

Your joking right

Stark

force_eleven wrote:

The Lisbon Treaty will do nothing for the 400,000 plus unemployed - that I guarantee. It will take a complete change of government and thinking to get us moving again. Hopefully this Treaty nonsense will be defeated, the government will fall, and we can at last have our proper say.

Lisbon is nothing to do with Fianna Fáil. Fine Gael and Labour are also pro-Lisbon.

rumour

Stark wrote: »

An Irish person's vote is still worth far more than a German person's vote.



Irish public salaries are much higher than the EU average. This is Ireland's **** up, not Europe's. Alas, it's looking we'll have a Labour government after the next election, which means the unions gain even more of a stranglehold on the country

I am curious about the voting weight, surely that point needs to be advocated. Do you have figures?

Regarding public sector pay I agree but it is the ECB that is financing it currently not out of love for Ireland but in the interests of ensuring that a EURO zone country does not go under.
There is a summit today about how to roll back the financial stimuli, we don't get a look in, but I'm sure the embarassing state of our affairs will bediscussed in the context of ensuring there are no threats to the EURO. The money available to us will be rolled back.

W1ct0ry

Stark wrote: »

looking we'll have a Labour government after the next election, which means the unions gain even more of a stranglehold on the country

And higher tax rates

marco_polo

rumour wrote: »

Your joking right

Deadly serious in fact. Unless you can point me towards the EU directive on Irish Public Sector pay rates that I am unaware of.

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

I am curious about the voting weight, surely that point needs to be advocated. Do you have figures?

Depends where you're talking about. On the European Council, we have one vote out of 27, which is 3.7% compared to Germany's 3.7%. In the European Parliament, we have 1 MEP per 350,000 residents, as opposed to Germany's 1 MEP per 830,000 (or 860,000 under Lisbon). On the Council of Ministers, the qualified majority system uses two criteria combined - vote based on population and one vote per state. On the former we have a weight of 0.8%, on the latter a weight of 3.7%.

rumour wrote: »

Regarding public sector pay I agree but it is the ECB that is financing it currently not out of love for Ireland but in the interests of ensuring that a EURO zone country does not go under.
There is a summit today about how to roll back the financial stimuli, we don't get a look in, but I'm sure the embarassing state of our affairs will be discussed in the context of ensuring there are no threats to the EURO. The money available to us will be rolled back.

The ECB short-term loans that are currently bankrolling us aren't a fiscal stimulus, though. The summit you're referring to - is that the pre-G20 meeting on September 17th (which will discuss curbing banker's bonuses and financing the fight against climate change), or a different one?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Stark

rumour wrote: »

I am curious about the voting weight, surely that point needs to be advocated. Do you have figures?

For a motion to pass in the Council of the European Union, you need a double majority. This means that the majority of the EU's population must agree but also that a majority of the countries must agree. In effect this means that in order to approve something, 1 Irish vote = 1 German vote but in terms of the power to block something, 1 Irish vote = 20 German votes (Irish population is approx 1/20th that of Germany).

In terms of the Commission, we had equal representation to the large countries under Lisbon I (2 out of every 3 years for each country, regardless of population) and will continue to have equal representation under Lisbon II.

In terms of the Parliament, Germany loses out under Lisbon as its number of MEPs is reduced from 99 to 96. Ireland retains 12 MEPs. So Germany has about 20 times the population of Ireland but 8 times the number of MEPs. The European Parliament also gains more power under Lisbon.

meglome

Keewee6 wrote: »

i think votin no because FF are **** or NAMA is wrong should be about the treaty

And I think I should be two inches taller and better looking but there you go. Unfortunately we're all stuck with reality, maybe you should try it.

Sam Vimes

Keewee6 wrote: »

i am voting no "specifically" on the treaty - i have no time for FF but i dont buy the "vote no and the gov will fall " maybe it will maybe it wont - but im voting no as its the same treaty

Since the Irish people are incapable of giving a valid reason why they rejected it the first time, why should the fact that it's the same treaty matter? We threw the thing in the bin without reading it the last time so why should they change any of it and more importantly, which parts should they have changed?

Keewee6

meglome wrote: »

And I think I should be two inches taller and better looking but there you go. Unfortunately we're all stuck with reality, maybe you should try it.

ok so ill just vote no then:D

patrickthomas

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

I am still waiting for a link to this.

Keewee6

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Since the Irish people are incapable of giving a valid reason why they rejected it the first time, why should the fact that it's the same treaty matter? We threw the thing in the bin without reading it the last time so why should they change any of it and more importantly, which parts should they have changed?

you dont think the same treaty is valid - fair enough - wont read the treaty - will just vote no

patrickthomas

Keewee6 wrote: »

you dont think the same treaty is valid - fair enough - wont read the treaty - will just vote no

Well I have been given the best reason in the world to vote No, seemingly I am an un-educated person that does not have the necessary skills to read and understand the treaty. :mad:

No...until the people who govern the eu, ireland provide me and the majority like me with the skills we need in order to be able join the socio-economic demographic and do as we are told :pac:

patrickthomas

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Among the DE socio-economic group, 65% voted no. This is the least educated level of society. Among the AB group, 64% voted yes. This is the most highly educated grouping.

The main reason cited for voting No was ‘lack of knowledge/information/ understanding’.

‘No’ voters were far more likely to believe that erosion of Irish neutrality, end of control over abortion and conscription to a European army were part of the Lisbon Treaty; they weren't.

Loss of Commissioner was also a common concern on the No side. Focus groups revealed that many people believed that the loss of a Commissioner would mean Ireland would have no voice in Europe at all. They didn't even understand what the Commissioner does or how the EU works.

In short, the empirical evidence strongly suggests that people who are less well educated generally and specifically ignorant of the treaty are far more likely to vote no than people who are well educated and understand what the treaty will do.

Don't worry abut it, I was able to find it myself despite being from the E Socio-economic group, he he never knew I was in a group before :pac:

You fairly cherry picked your quote from it, why am I not surprised?
I have been convinced not once but twice by the yes side to vote NO, because of their lack of sincerity and brow beating, now I know why, thank you very much. It is enlightening to know that all that is to it is split the country into 6 socio-economic groups, ask them some questions and re-hash the reasons according to the results.

Ye really do not have a clue.

Sam Vimes

Keewee6 wrote: »

you dont think the same treaty is valid - fair enough - wont read the treaty - will just vote no

Are you trolling or do you actually think that's acceptable way for someone over the age of 6 to behave?

meglome

Keewee6 wrote: »

you dont think the same treaty is valid - fair enough - wont read the treaty - will just vote no

You're voting No no matter what so this whole pointless back and forth is well... pointless.

BTW It's obviously your right to vote as you please but it would be so nice if you had some real reason for doing so.

Keewee6

meglome wrote: »

You're voting No no matter what so this whole pointless back and forth is well... pointless.

BTW It's obviously your right to vote as you please but it would be so nice if you had some real reason for doing so.

you need a reason -which is why you wont get one - i have my reasons - but i promise with all my heart - not to tell you

Keewee6

patrickthomas wrote: »

Well I have been given the best reason in the world to vote No, seemingly I am an un-educated person that does not have the necessary skills to read and understand the treaty. :mad:

No...until the people who govern the eu, ireland provide me and the majority like me with the skills we need in order to be able join the socio-economic demographic and do as we are told :pac:

fair enough:rolleyes:

aftermn

Planning application failed? Don't worry just try again
Referendum idea failed? Don't worry just try again
Company court protection failed? Don't worry just try again.

Bob Geldoff was right, banana republic.

This country has no rules, no regulations, no justice, no democracy. Money is the only measure.

Reject Lisbon, hopefully it will precipitate a political crises, we need one. We need more than that, we need total repudiation of the status quo. It is the only way to save our democracy.