Attitude of the yes campaign

K-9 · 05-09-2009 1:12am

Keewee6 wrote: »

fair enough:rolleyes:

Why do many No voters actively seek to be offended?

Yes voters could be offended by many things but most of us don't bother.

Look, groups do research on socio economic backgrounds. Newspapers do it. The Sun would tend to appeal to a lower socio economic group than the Times, who cares? Read or don't read what you want.

Think there was a survey done by Trinity boffins pointing out the better educated voted Yes. To me it was funny, it didn't decide my vote. I don't care what some boffin considers highly educated, as if a Masters means I know better!

Why make some stupid survey a reason to vote No?

bustertherat · 05-09-2009 1:53am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

lets quote what he said word for word

lets lookup the definition of electorate

how many people in Ireland who have the right to vote voted in the last referendum?

53.13%

how many of these people voted NO?

53.20%

now please so the maths and please do tell us what % of the electorate voted NO

:rolleyes:

im sick of the NO side telling lies, not backing it up with references and ignoring basic facts

congratulations ei.sdraob, aren't you the big man sitting at your computer,working out calculations and then posting smarmy, arrogant comments. i must get you a big gold medal casted so that you can wear it all day long and make yourself feel big and proud.

a bit of advice, get up off your laptop and go away and get a life for yourself.:D

K-9 · 05-09-2009 2:11am

bustertherat wrote: »

congratulations ei.sdraob, aren't you the big man sitting at your computer,working out calculations and then posting smarmy, arrogant comments. i must get you a big gold medal casted so that you can wear it all day long and make yourself feel big and proud. a bit of advice, get up off your laptop and go away and get a life for yourself.:D

That's me won over by intellectual debate and sound reasoning.

meglome · 05-09-2009 2:13am

Keewee6 wrote: »

you need a reason -which is why you wont get one - i have my reasons - but i promise with all my heart - not to tell you

I don't need to hear your reasons. We tend to treat people based on their actions and as the petulant twelve year old you're acting I'm safely assuming your reasons are not going to be of great value. And yet I'm here replying to you... silly me.

ChocolateSauce · 05-09-2009 2:13am

patrickthomas wrote: »

Can you provide a link for this please?

Forgive the delay: http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Publications/Post%20Lisbon%20Treaty%20Referendum%20Research%20Findings/post%20lisbon%20treaty%20referendum%20research%20findings_sept08.pdf

meglome · 05-09-2009 2:17am

aftermn wrote: »

Reject Lisbon, hopefully it will precipitate a political crises, we need one. We need more than that, we need total repudiation of the status quo. It is the only way to save our democracy.

You want a political crises as well as a financial one? How about you go to another country, one that I'm not in.

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 2:25am

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Forgive the delay: http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Publications/Post%20Lisbon%20Treaty%20Referendum%20Research%20Findings/post%20lisbon%20treaty%20referendum%20research%20findings_sept08.pdf

I had found it already, can't find a breakdown of socio-economic demographics for Ireland though, found every other country in the Eu but Ireland. :rolleyes:

ChocolateSauce · 05-09-2009 2:32am

patrickthomas wrote: »

I had found it already, can't find a breakdown of socio-economic demographics for Ireland though, found every other country in the Eu but Ireland. :rolleyes:

http://www.medialive.ie/General/econ.html

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 2:33am

K-9 wrote: »

Why do many No voters actively seek to be offended?

Yes voters could be offended by many things but most of us don't bother.

Look, groups do research on socio economic backgrounds. Newspapers do it. The Sun would tend to appeal to a lower socio economic group than the Times, who cares? Read or don't read what you want.

Think there was a survey done by Trinity boffins pointing out the better educated voted Yes. To me it was funny, it didn't decide my vote. I don't care what some boffin considers highly educated, as if a Masters means I know better!

Why make some stupid survey a reason to vote No?

I guess it is just the different socio-economic groups we belong to, I am used to being offended, and the yes side are used to being offensive.

Only diferrence is........Oh never mind, stay asleep

K-9 · 05-09-2009 2:55am

But why care about what some boffin thinks?

Surely you are actually playing to the stereotype?

Ach, I give up to!

I hate stereotypes, but I hate people playing up to stereotypes more!

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 2:57am

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

http://www.medialive.ie/General/econ.html

Thanks, that is from 2002, the demography has changed a whole lot since then. Is that the most recent?

Mother says · 05-09-2009 3:23am

Just pulled this off the front page of the Generation Yes website. For me it really sums up the whole direction of the EU project and why we should vote No.

'Sinn Féin’s Aonghus Ó Snodaigh said on Friday that Generation YES were “naive” for believing that Lisbon was “crucial in the fight against poverty“. We think Aonghus Ó Snodaigh is arrogant for thinking he knows more about development policy than the Chief Executive of Concern and the Director of Trócaire. We know it’s crucial because that’s what the experts told us.'

'We know because experts told us.' We know Lisbon is good because experts told us.
Mindlessly deferring to the opinions of people who call themselves experts is a good way to invalidate democracy. Might as well ask your priest while you are at it.

'A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both.'

'A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person.'

James Madison 4th US president. -Expert in democracy.

This is the advice of a man who helped build a democracy from scratch not some mandarin who deceptively cultivated a massive and nebulous political apparatus.

If you are dependent on the 'expertise' of others then it's probably safest to vote NO. You can believe me, I'm an expert.

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 3:26am

Mother says wrote: »

Just pulled this off the front page of the Generation Yes website. For me it really sums up the whole direction of the EU project and why we should vote No.

'Sinn Féin’s Aonghus Ó Snodaigh said on Friday that Generation YES were “naive” for believing that Lisbon was “crucial in the fight against poverty“. We think Aonghus Ó Snodaigh is arrogant for thinking he knows more about development policy than the Chief Executive of Concern and the Director of Trócaire. We know it’s crucial because that’s what the experts told us.'

'We know because experts told us.' We know Lisbon is good because experts told us.
Mindlessly deferring to the opinions of people who call themselves experts is a good way to invalidate democracy. Might as well ask your priest while you are at it.

'A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both.'

'A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person.'

James Madison 4th US president. -Expert in democracy.

This is the advice of a man who helped build a democracy from scratch not some mandarin who deceptively cultivated a massive and nebulous political apparatus.

If you are dependent on the 'expertise' of others then it's probably safest to vote NO. You can believe me, I'm an expert.

It is the same old story, an "expert" told me, hey a "limo expert" got the cars for JOD.

We do not have anyone with any brains in power, and it does not take an expert to see that. :pac:

meglome · 05-09-2009 3:41am

Mother says wrote: »

'A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person.'

James Madison 4th US president. -Expert in democracy.

Why didn't he introduce this into the US?

the_syco · 05-09-2009 3:55am

Mother says wrote: »

'We know because experts told us.' We know Lisbon is good because experts told us.
Mindlessly deferring to the opinions of people who call themselves experts is a good way to invalidate democracy. Might as well ask your priest while you are at it.

That's funny. The NO people are saying to listen to them for the same reasons...

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 4:01am

the_syco wrote: »

That's funny. The NO people are saying to listen to them for the same reasons...

You just make it up as you go along, don't you?

Stark · 05-09-2009 10:23am

Pot kettle, oh never mind.

If we all just did our own reading up on the fecking thing, we wouldn't need to have these fights over which side has the most credibility.

Keewee6 · 05-09-2009 11:22am

meglome wrote: »

I don't need to hear your reasons. We tend to treat people based on their actions and as the petulant twelve year old you're acting I'm safely assuming your reasons are not going to be of great value. And yet I'm here replying to you... silly me.

ok sorry for being rude - simple reason - it was rejected already - that is the one and only reason

K-9 · 05-09-2009 11:54am

Keewee6 wrote: »

ok sorry for being rude - simple reason - it was rejected already - that is the one and only reason

OK, Fair enough. You do realise some voted No to get guarantees on tax and workers rights and some did what Libertas said, "Vote No to keep 'our' Commissioner?"

ChocolateSauce · 05-09-2009 12:53pm

patrickthomas wrote: »

Thanks, that is from 2002, the demography has changed a whole lot since then. Is that the most recent?

I didn't realise that. Never the less, the information I used to compose my post all came from the first link. I looked at the second link, but it didn't really give me anything the first didn't.

ixtlan · 05-09-2009 1:01pm

Keewee6 wrote: »

ok sorry for being rude - simple reason - it was rejected already - that is the one and only reason

With due respect I note that your responses are always minimal and loop around. Other people are making much more of an effort to engage in discussion.

Keewee6 wrote: »

you need a reason -which is why you wont get one - i have my reasons - but i promise with all my heart - not to tell you

you dont think the same treaty is valid - fair enough - wont read the treaty - will just vote no

ok so ill just vote no then:D

i am voting no "specifically" on the treaty - i have no time for FF but i dont buy the "vote no and the gov will fall " maybe it will maybe it wont - but im voting no as its the same treaty

no because lisbon was already rejected so i will vote no on that basis i would want to see a new negotiated lisbon to compare the old lisbon

if it takes fifteen yrs so be it - better to get it right - as long as the current treaty stands i will not read it & vote no

lisbon is about making eu more efficient yea - i say leave it the way it is - ill vote no

ok thanks for all your help ill just for no

Keewee6 · 05-09-2009 1:29pm

ixtlan wrote: »

With due respect I note that your responses are always minimal and loop around. Other people are making much more of an effort to engage in discussion.

fair enoungh:D

Keewee6 · 05-09-2009 1:30pm

K-9 wrote: »

OK, Fair enough. You do realise some voted No to get guarantees on tax and workers rights and some did what Libertas said, "Vote No to keep 'our' Commissioner?"

yes - as its a european it should e re ratifed in all countries for the people for agree to ireland guarentees - its not goin to be so ill vote no

patrickthomas · 05-09-2009 1:58pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I didn't realise that. Never the less, the information I used to compose my post all came from the first link. I looked at the second link, but it didn't really give me anything the first didn't.

Fair enough, I would be sure that the figures in this would have changed as we became the richest country in the EU after these figures.:rolleyes: (Did not last long naturally)I am wondering what criteria is used to measure these figures? probably very basic.

30% DE, 20-25% would likely have moved into the C2, and have been moving back rapidly and will continue to do so. I would guess that the increases in basic wages and social welfare would have changed these figures completely, whether it had really changed anything is easy guess.

I have never looked at the country in terms of figures like this before, It does make me wonder just how easy it is to paint a picture of a people as being well off when in fact they are morally and culturaly bankrupt.

I can see that tools like these can be very powerful if used correctly, and also very powerful to convince the better off that they are being really good to the less better off based on a figure on a piece of paper.

I can easily see how figures like these are used to identify and create a candidate/product which translate into a vote. It is like a football match and it is all about winning. For me it will never be about winning or losing but about the "game" itself, the game is life and the people telling us how to vote have won that game already, and there is no way now I can be convinced that they are interested in my life, or the life of the other 75% of the pop who vote against them or do not care to vote at all.

ixtlan · 05-09-2009 4:40pm

Mother says wrote: »

Just pulled this off the front page of the Generation Yes website. For me it really sums up the whole direction of the EU project and why we should vote No.

'Sinn Féin’s Aonghus Ó Snodaigh said on Friday that Generation YES were “naive” for believing that Lisbon was “crucial in the fight against poverty“. We think Aonghus Ó Snodaigh is arrogant for thinking he knows more about development policy than the Chief Executive of Concern and the Director of Trócaire. We know it’s crucial because that’s what the experts told us.'

'We know because experts told us.' We know Lisbon is good because experts told us.
Mindlessly deferring to the opinions of people who call themselves experts is a good way to invalidate democracy. Might as well ask your priest while you are at it.

I have to respond to this. Just so I understand... you believe that Sinn Fein know more about global development policy than the heads of Concern and Trocaire?

Or perhaps you believe that we should all become experts in global poverty issues and not listen to the charities that are working on that problem? Of course there is a catch-22 problem there in trying to become an expert while ignoring the opinions of all experts in an area.

How can anyone speak knowledgably about an area without listening to those involved in that area (who we might call experts)!?

You want us to randomly decide on issues without asking for opinions of those working on the ground?!

Democracy requires us to make an informed decision. Getting informed means asking people who know more than you for an opinion.

Do you believe that you know more about global poverty issues than the heads of Concern and Trocaire? I don't believe that I do.

Ix.

Spiderspeed · 05-09-2009 9:21pm

Talk about the argumant that Lisbon will make EU more democratic???? I along with my fellow irish votes not alone get to vote once on Lisbon but twice whereas my 400 million fellow europeans never get a vote. The EU elite want to ram this treaty down our throats. Heart of Europe....do u really think EU gives a crap about Ireland....only when they want smething out of us.....I'm voting No and a word of advice put Lisbon 3 to all citzens of Europe like a real demoracy.

Stark · 05-09-2009 9:31pm

Perhaps while we're at it, Dáil Éireann can hold a referendum on every single law it passes, like a "real democracy".

Spiderspeed · 05-09-2009 9:42pm

Stark wrote: »

Perhaps while we're at it, Dáil Éireann can hold a referendum on every single law it passes, like a "real democracy".

We delegate responsibility to our democratic elected TDs to vote on legislation on our behalf (in effect we do vote on every single law indirectly). The constitution is one safe guard that ensures that the Dail must put certain law to te people to vote drectly. NAMA and the next Budget are so serious for the citizens of this country they should be put to the people.

Stark · 05-09-2009 9:52pm

And likewise, the people of Europe delegate responsibility to their democratically elected members of parliament who voted on the Lisbon treaty. Ireland holding a referendum is an oddity due to a clause that's unique to our constitution. There's nothing fundamentally different about Lisbon vs most of the other laws that Dáil Éireann or other member states pass without referendum.

Mother says · 06-09-2009 1:04am

ixtlan wrote: »

I have to respond to this. Just so I understand... you believe that Sinn Fein know more about global development policy than the heads of Concern and Trocaire?

Yeah, i love the part of my post where I said exactly that.

ixtlan wrote: »

Of course there is a catch-22 problem there in trying to become an expert while ignoring the opinions of all experts in an area.

Yeah, you can usually find two experts that will happily contradict one another.

ixtlan wrote: »

You want us to randomly decide on issues without asking for opinions of those working on the ground?!

Again, thanks for telling me what I think, it saves me a lot of hassle.

ixtlan wrote: »

Democracy requires us to make an informed decision. Getting informed means asking people who know more than you for an opinion.

Do you believe that you know more about global poverty issues than the heads of Concern and Trocaire? I don't believe that I do.

Exactly, you and I believe things that experts tell us they know. The lucky kids of Generation Yes know the things that experts tell them, presumably by some sort of psychic interface.
Feel free to read posts before you comment on them, or not. It's up to you!

Love, Mother.

Attitude of the yes campaign

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