The Angelus

eoin5

It might be dangerous to take it away considering how many people are probably physicially addicted to it.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

What do I win?

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it. The rest of us can largely ignore it and get on with our lives. I would understand people's issues with it, if it took the form of a hymn or a minute of somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat, but it's just a bell ringing.

I usually just switch over or zone out when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints.

toiletduck

You seem to be awful uppity about it. Perhaps I should share the prize with Wick.


If you really don't think that a call to prayer isn't religious... well then good luck with that.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

If you really don't think that a call to prayer isn't religious... well then good luck with that.

I don't know about you, but it doesn't call me to prayer. It calls me to switch over and get the headlines on BBC 1.

toiletduck

RayM wrote: »

I don't know about you, but it doesn't call me to prayer.

Did I say otherwise?

You've gotten the point though. It's a call to prayer for one particular group, mainly for Irish Catholics (I've never heard of it in other countries?). That's why people object

Kinda like the feeling you get when the BBC weather shows nothing past the Derry or Newry. It doesn't make any sense, is a minor niggle, meh. I wouldn't consider anyone giving their opinion on it a fanatic though.

kiffer

It doesn't bother me in the slightest...
Sure it would be a bit hard to hear the headlines if they tried to talk while that bell was still ringing away, it's only sensible to wait a little while...

Coriolanus

I really think that cancelling the Sunday televised mass and replacing it with reruns of Airwolf and possibly Thundercats is a more pressing issue.
Sadly, my monthly letters to the Director of Programming at RTE have been to no avail.

number10a

I have a friend who uses the Angelus to remind her to take her pill. Not everyday obviously, but if she happens to be watching RTÉ at six it helps her keep herself all lovely and infertile. :rolleyes: I'm sure the Church would love it if they knew.

RayM

toiletduck wrote: »

You've gotten the point though. It's a call to prayer for one particular group, mainly for Irish Catholics (I've never heard of it in other countries?). That's why people object

And for the rest of us... it's one minute of a bell ringing. Nothing preachy, no sign of God or Jesus anywhere. Just an inconsequential bell. Rational people don't object to that. Those who do object to it, do so for entirely petty reasons, and are no better than the miserable killjoys who protested against 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' and 'The Life of Brian', etc...

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

It is not a "big deal" to keep it but neither is it a big deal to get rid of it, so why don't we just get rid of it.

In any competition to see who is making the least effort, the surest way to demonstrate that it's you is to leave the status quo as is.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it.

So you don't think it's an important issue, fine, stop posting and "get on with your life" as you say. I personally am a big fan of Church-State separation and I am also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting. Seeing a religious tradition constantly supported by publicly funded television and radio irks me, I would like it to stop. I would like Public Service Broadcasting to act the way it was conceived.

Do you not see a hypocritical irony in getting worked up over the fact that atheists are getting work up over something you don't think is important? We're not even making you change the channel, and yet we're the ones earning your scorn.

toiletduck

RayM wrote: »

And for the rest of us... it's one minute of a bell ringing. Nothing preachy, no sign of God or Jesus anywhere. Just an inconsequential bell. Rational people don't object to that. Those who do object to it, do so for entirely petty reasons, and are no better than the miserable killjoys who protested against 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' and 'The Life of Brian', etc...

In fairness, you're the only one who's admitted that any change regarding it would piss you off. Everyone else has been pretty cool.

I'll refer to the initial posts which outlined how these debates go. It's rather hilarious alright.

Zillah

toiletduck wrote: »

What do I win?

A vague sense of frustration and irritation. Congratulations. Prizes are not refundable but they have a lifetime guarantee. If at any point in your life you lose your prize simply turn to the nearest religious person for a new one.

toiletduck

Zillah wrote: »

A vague sense of frustration and irritation. Congratulations.

Ara, the BBC weather X 2! Arghh!

Still at least I'm not denying that that has nothing to do with meteorology.... yet. Probably get labelled a Kelvin-botherer, weather fanatic or somesuch if I raise it :pac:

RayM

Zillah wrote:

So you don't think it's an important issue, fine, stop posting and "get on with your life" as you say. I personally am a big fan of Church-State separation and I am also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting. Seeing a religious tradition constantly supported by publicly funded television and radio irks me, I would like it to stop. I would like Public Service Broadcasting to act the way it was conceived.

I'm also a big fan of Public Service Broadcasting, and - for that very reason - have no objections to the existence of the Angelus bells being played for one minute on TV or radio, for the benefit of those (minority or not) who like that kind of thing. Lots of things on television 'irk' me, but I don't think the fact that I would like to see The Afternoon Show (for instance) stopped, means that it automatically should be, particularly when there are (presumably) others out there who... I don't know... gain something from it.

Zillah wrote:

Do you not see a hypocritical irony in getting worked up over the fact that atheists are getting work up over something you don't think is important? We're not even making you change the channel, and yet we're the ones earning your scorn.

I know it's almost compulsory, when attempting to 'win' discussions on the Internet, to accuse people of hypocrisy or not recognising irony, but no - I haven't 'got worked up' or said anything remotely hypocritical. All I have said is that - despite not being a fan of the Angelus myself - I disagree with those who believe that it should be dropped.

toiletduck wrote:

In fairness, you're the only one who's admitted that any change regarding it would piss you off. Everyone else has been pretty cool.

I was under the impression (having read the posts in this thread) that its very existence pissed some people off. Seeing anything removed (or banned, censored, etc) at the behest of cranks, be they religious or atheist, certainly would piss me off, yes.

toiletduck wrote:

Still at least I'm not denying that that has nothing to do with meteorology.... yet. Probably get labelled a Kelvin-botherer, weather fanatic or somesuch if I raise it

That's kind of a pointless remark, because I didn't actually say that the Angelus has nothing to do with religion. I said that its content isn't all that religious. Which it isn't. It's just bells and people staring into space.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

I know it's almost compulsory, when attempting to 'win' discussions on the Internet, to accuse people of hypocrisy or not recognising irony, but no - I haven't 'got worked up' or said anything remotely hypocritical. All I have said is that - despite not being a fan of the Angelus myself - I disagree with those who believe that it should be dropped.

Nor have I, now you know how it feels to simply express an opinion on something and be accused of getting worked up. I'm glad we could share this moment.

And yes, sometimes people call others hypocritical just to try and score points. Sometimes, however, I call people hypocritical when they're being hypocritical. Like you. You are being hypocritical, that is why I said you were being hypocritical.

RayM

Zillah wrote:

Nor have I, now you know how it feels to simply express an opinion on something and be accused of getting worked up. I'm glad we could share this moment.

You've been accused of getting worked up? That's just terrible. When and by whom?

Zillah wrote:

Sometimes, however, I call people hypocritical when they're being hypocritical. Like you. You are being hypocritical, that is why I said you were being hypocritical.

Alas, repeating something ad-nauseam does not make it true. However, if you would prefer to indulge in tedious and diversionary point-scoring, rather than discussing whether the Angelus plays any role in Public Service Broadcasting or is so offensive and wrong that it should be ditched/censored/banned, then please just say so.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

You've been accused of getting worked up? That's just terrible. When and by whom?

Perhaps not those exact words, but you've accused us of "whinging", said that we have earned "scorn and derision", implied that we can't "get on with our lives" etc for simply expressing the opinion that it is not appropriate for the Angelus to be played on publicly funded broadcasts.

Alas, repeating something ad-nauseam does not make it true. However, if you would prefer to indulge in tedious and diversionary point-scoring, rather than discussing whether the Angelus plays any role in Public Service Broadcasting or is so offensive and wrong that it should be ditched/censored/banned, then please just say so.

I've already expressed my opinion on that. Playing the Angelus on publicly funded broadcasts violates separation of church and state. You are here to whinge at people on the internet about an irrelevant issue, people whom you accuse of whinging on the internet about an issue you consider irrelevant. That's pretty damn amusing.

And don't try and accuse me of point scoring, you're the one who got petty and worked up over people who dislike the Angelus.

RayM

Zillah wrote:

Perhaps not those exact words

Perhaps not indeed. The only people who I have accused of whinging are those who - in their own words - acknowledge that they are irked and embarrassed by the the Angelus being broadcast.

Zillah wrote:

I've already expressed my opinion on that. Playing the Angelus on publicly funded broadcasts violates separation of church and state.

As it is a Public Service Broadcaster, and some of the people who fund it are practising Catholics, I see no problem with devoting a paltry seven minutes per week to them (out of the 10,000 minutes of television broadcast by RTE1 every week). That is why I believe that those who, on principle, wish to deny them that are being mean-spirited and petty. And unnecessary - Walk past any Catholic church tomorrow at the beginning or end of mass, and you'll see an awful lot of grey hair and walking sticks. Do the math(s) etc... I'd rather see the Angelus eventually being abandoned because there's no longer an 'audience' for it, than immediately abandoned because a very small number of people can't - on principle - tolerate something which (in practical terms) has no bearing on their life whatsoever.

Zillah wrote:

And don't try and accuse me of point scoring, you're the one who got petty and worked up over people who dislike the Angelus.

I'm afraid you're being totally wrong ad-nauseam again. I haven't got worked up (or even irked or embarrassed) about anything. I have, however, expressed the view that, in an entirely hypothetical situation where the "down with this sort of thing" brigade won and the Angelus was scrapped, I would indeed be somewhat irked. So, you'll just have to wait until then before I 'get worked up'.

Antbert

Does it help if I say I am worked up about it? What's so wrong with getting worked up?! I get worked up about things all the time.

RayM wrote: »

As it is a Public Service Broadcaster, and some of the people who fund it are practising Catholics, I see no problem with devoting a paltry seven minutes per week to them (out of the 10,000 minutes of television broadcast by RTE1 every week). That is why I believe that those who, on principle, wish to deny them that are being mean-spirited and petty. And unnecessary - Walk past any Catholic church tomorrow at the beginning or end of mass, and you'll see an awful lot of grey hair and walking sticks. Do the math(s) etc... I'd rather see the Angelus eventually being abandoned because there's no longer an 'audience' for it, than immediately abandoned because a very small number of people can't - on principle - tolerate something which (in practical terms) has no bearing on their life whatsoever.

I do certainly see the point of 'well, what harm is it really doing. It's only helping the more weak-minded older generation'. But I do think that having some as blatant as a public service broadcast devoting time every day to a religious tradition as a demonstration of the complete lack of seperation between church and state.

Maybe the angelus in itself isn't harmful. In fact, I don't think it really is. It's more what it symbolises. I told my English cousins about this and they were absolutely shocked. It just would not fly over there.

Perhaps a more practical solution would be to wait until the older generation (say, 75+) are all dead. Then get rid of it. Even though I'm not a fan of that and think it should be immediately axed. Why can't they say a few prayers on their own?

Either that or have AC/DC's Hell's Bells playing instead.

two wheels good

Oh yes please! Please scrap The Angelus.


Not only is that tuneless gong irritating, it is completely at odds with a modern progressive society. Public service broadcasting should be impartial. Church and state should be separated even to the level of these "trivial" points. Aren't I stating the obvious?



For the moment I'd settle for a tuneful hymn, Gregorian chant, Bach, Mozart's requiem. Anything but that repetitious noise! (Not 'faith of our fathers' obviously)



When I find the email address of the appropriate contact at RTE I will post it here and encourage like-minded members to email him\her to urge the abandonment of the angelus.



Here is a subset of the "public interest tests" that RTÉ has set for itself which I think are failed by the inclusion of the angelus in the schedule:

• Fairness
• Accuracy
• Impartiality
• Objectivity
• Independence from vested interests and freedom from political control or influence
• Schedules that respect the views of the audience and enhance their cultural expectations
• Programming that recognises regional interests and cultural diversity
• Programming that is imaginative and original.

ShooterSF

RayM wrote: »

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it. The rest of us can largely ignore it and get on with our lives. I would understand people's issues with it, if it took the form of a hymn or a minute of somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat, but it's just a bell ringing.

I usually just switch over or zone out when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints.

I don't understand how can something that you "zone out" and "ignore" being cancelled, regardless of the reason, piss you off? I have never gotten angry over something I didn't care about being cancelled.

dvpower

RayM wrote: »

That's kind of a pointless remark, because I didn't actually say that the Angelus has nothing to do with religion. I said that its content isn't all that religious. Which it isn't. It's just bells and people staring into space.

Aren't the angelus bells a kind of call to prayer (to pray the Hail Mary)? I think that makes its content religious.

Anyway, I find it quite handy actually. I can catch the headlines on the other side and then switch back to RTE and get the start of the 6.01 news.

robindch

Hi Ray - Welcome to the A+A forum. This is one of your friendly forum moderators tuning in for a minute...

RayM wrote: »

The only people who I have accused of whinging [...] its very existence pissed some people off. Seeing anything removed [...] at the behest of cranks [...] certainly would piss me off, yes. [...] somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat [...] when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints. [...] Dawkins-botherers do themselves a massive disservice when they object to something so innocuous as the Angelus. [...] I'm afraid you're being totally wrong ad-nauseam again. I haven't got worked up (or even irked or embarrassed) about anything.

I'm detecting more workedupedness from your excellent self than everybody else combined.

It's Saturday -- grab a beer and shoot the breeze.

RayM

Antbert wrote: »

Does it help if I say I am worked up about it? What's so wrong with getting worked up?! I get worked up about things all the time.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with it at all. If someone forced me to sit through TV programmes that I dislike or object to, I'd probably be pretty worked-up at the time too.

Antbert wrote:

But I do think that having some as blatant as a public service broadcast devoting time every day to a religious tradition as a demonstration of the complete lack of seperation between church and state.

You see, I think that would be something to worry about... if there was any chance of it turning into a 'slippery slope' towards wall-to-wall 'Jesus TV'. But thankfully, things are going very much in the opposite direction (I mean, you don't even see Fr Brian D'arcy on the Late Late Show nowadays, unless he has a book to plug). The broadcasting of the Angelus is just a tiny little anachronism, which will die out of its own accord anyway.

robindch wrote:

I'm detecting more workedupedness from your excellent self than everybody else combined.

You could just as easily selectively cut and paste from other people's posts, out of context, to make it look as though they're 'worked up' too. Not that I'm suggesting or implying, of course, that I've been singled out because my viewpoint differs a little from the majority here. No siree. The point I was trying to ram home (perhaps a little too facetiously), is that atheists do their cause no favours by focusing on fairly innocuous things like the Angelus. Sometimes, appearing reasonable is more important than being right.

TrustNoOne

If any 'good Christian' needs reminding to stop and spare a thought for whatever reason once a day, then I would have to ask what kind of a Christian are they, or person for that matter? The whole purpose of the angelus I believe is merely to remind pople to be more considerate of others and think of ways of bettering themselves, etc etc. Who actually does this?

To me it's just a nuisance. I worked unsociable hours on a number of occasions throughout my life and that irritating sound always woke me up.

If you really need reminding to be a better person then I suggest you set an alarm. You can do it on most mobile phones these days, you can even give the alarm a name...How about: "Be Nice" or "Don't Kill People"

Get rid of it

Mal-Adjusted

lol, wow, you people all take this a bit serious dont you?

stop getting so worked up over something so trivial, all y'er doing is ranting anyway...

TrustNoOne

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

lol, wow, you people all take this a bit serious dont you?

stop getting so worked up over something so trivial, all y'er doing is ranting anyway...

Nah bud, just expressing an opinion like yourself

lemonjelly

I like the bit where they just stop doing whatever they are working at and just gaze distantly into the sky like they're having a collective absence seisure at an imaginary bell in the sky.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

is that atheists do their cause no favours

Heh. You think I have a cause. Some men just want to watch the world burn.