The Angelus

two wheels good

Oh yes please! Please scrap The Angelus.


Not only is that tuneless gong irritating, it is completely at odds with a modern progressive society. Public service broadcasting should be impartial. Church and state should be separated even to the level of these "trivial" points. Aren't I stating the obvious?



For the moment I'd settle for a tuneful hymn, Gregorian chant, Bach, Mozart's requiem. Anything but that repetitious noise! (Not 'faith of our fathers' obviously)



When I find the email address of the appropriate contact at RTE I will post it here and encourage like-minded members to email him\her to urge the abandonment of the angelus.



Here is a subset of the "public interest tests" that RTÉ has set for itself which I think are failed by the inclusion of the angelus in the schedule:

• Fairness
• Accuracy
• Impartiality
• Objectivity
• Independence from vested interests and freedom from political control or influence
• Schedules that respect the views of the audience and enhance their cultural expectations
• Programming that recognises regional interests and cultural diversity
• Programming that is imaginative and original.

ShooterSF

RayM wrote: »

You win nothing, only scorn and derision. The only people for whom the Angelus is religious, are the grannies who pause and say a load of Hail Marys for it, and the Atheists who whinge on the Internet about it. The rest of us can largely ignore it and get on with our lives. I would understand people's issues with it, if it took the form of a hymn or a minute of somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat, but it's just a bell ringing.

I usually just switch over or zone out when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints.

I don't understand how can something that you "zone out" and "ignore" being cancelled, regardless of the reason, piss you off? I have never gotten angry over something I didn't care about being cancelled.

dvpower

RayM wrote: »

That's kind of a pointless remark, because I didn't actually say that the Angelus has nothing to do with religion. I said that its content isn't all that religious. Which it isn't. It's just bells and people staring into space.

Aren't the angelus bells a kind of call to prayer (to pray the Hail Mary)? I think that makes its content religious.

Anyway, I find it quite handy actually. I can catch the headlines on the other side and then switch back to RTE and get the start of the 6.01 news.

robindch

Hi Ray - Welcome to the A+A forum. This is one of your friendly forum moderators tuning in for a minute...

RayM wrote: »

The only people who I have accused of whinging [...] its very existence pissed some people off. Seeing anything removed [...] at the behest of cranks [...] certainly would piss me off, yes. [...] somebody else's beliefs being vociferously rammed down your throat [...] when it comes on, but I have to admit that I'd be pretty pissed off if they ever decided to get rid of it purely on the basis of such spurious and petty-minded complaints. [...] Dawkins-botherers do themselves a massive disservice when they object to something so innocuous as the Angelus. [...] I'm afraid you're being totally wrong ad-nauseam again. I haven't got worked up (or even irked or embarrassed) about anything.

I'm detecting more workedupedness from your excellent self than everybody else combined.

It's Saturday -- grab a beer and shoot the breeze.

RayM

Antbert wrote: »

Does it help if I say I am worked up about it? What's so wrong with getting worked up?! I get worked up about things all the time.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with it at all. If someone forced me to sit through TV programmes that I dislike or object to, I'd probably be pretty worked-up at the time too.

Antbert wrote:

But I do think that having some as blatant as a public service broadcast devoting time every day to a religious tradition as a demonstration of the complete lack of seperation between church and state.

You see, I think that would be something to worry about... if there was any chance of it turning into a 'slippery slope' towards wall-to-wall 'Jesus TV'. But thankfully, things are going very much in the opposite direction (I mean, you don't even see Fr Brian D'arcy on the Late Late Show nowadays, unless he has a book to plug). The broadcasting of the Angelus is just a tiny little anachronism, which will die out of its own accord anyway.

robindch wrote:

I'm detecting more workedupedness from your excellent self than everybody else combined.

You could just as easily selectively cut and paste from other people's posts, out of context, to make it look as though they're 'worked up' too. Not that I'm suggesting or implying, of course, that I've been singled out because my viewpoint differs a little from the majority here. No siree. The point I was trying to ram home (perhaps a little too facetiously), is that atheists do their cause no favours by focusing on fairly innocuous things like the Angelus. Sometimes, appearing reasonable is more important than being right.

TrustNoOne

If any 'good Christian' needs reminding to stop and spare a thought for whatever reason once a day, then I would have to ask what kind of a Christian are they, or person for that matter? The whole purpose of the angelus I believe is merely to remind pople to be more considerate of others and think of ways of bettering themselves, etc etc. Who actually does this?

To me it's just a nuisance. I worked unsociable hours on a number of occasions throughout my life and that irritating sound always woke me up.

If you really need reminding to be a better person then I suggest you set an alarm. You can do it on most mobile phones these days, you can even give the alarm a name...How about: "Be Nice" or "Don't Kill People"

Get rid of it

Mal-Adjusted

lol, wow, you people all take this a bit serious dont you?

stop getting so worked up over something so trivial, all y'er doing is ranting anyway...

TrustNoOne

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

lol, wow, you people all take this a bit serious dont you?

stop getting so worked up over something so trivial, all y'er doing is ranting anyway...

Nah bud, just expressing an opinion like yourself

lemonjelly

I like the bit where they just stop doing whatever they are working at and just gaze distantly into the sky like they're having a collective absence seisure at an imaginary bell in the sky.

Zillah

RayM wrote: »

is that atheists do their cause no favours

Heh. You think I have a cause. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

The Mad Hatter

two wheels good wrote: »

For the moment I'd settle for a tuneful hymn, Gregorian chant, Bach, Mozart's requiem. Anything but that repetitious noise! (Not 'faith of our fathers' obviously)

While I personally think that would be an immense improvement, at least the Angelus-makers can pretend that the Angelus is multi-denominational. With a little Gregorian chant before the news, we'd have maybe six weeks with that minute of beauty, and then a daily six o'clock news report.

two wheels good wrote: »

Here is a subset of the "public interest tests" that RTÉ has set for itself which I think are failed by the inclusion of the angelus in the schedule:

• Fairness
• Accuracy
• Impartiality
• Objectivity
• Independence from vested interests and freedom from political control or influence
• Schedules that respect the views of the audience and enhance their cultural expectations
• Programming that recognises regional interests and cultural diversity
• Programming that is imaginative and original.

Let's be fair - that isn't the only place they fall down on this list.

eoin5

two wheels good wrote:

Here is a subset of the "public interest tests" that RTÉ has set for itself which I think are failed by the inclusion of the angelus in the schedule:

A state broadcaster with independence from vested interests.. Huh? Hows that supposed to work, do they all work for free?

Antbert

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

lol, wow, you people all take this a bit serious dont you?

stop getting so worked up over something so trivial, all y'er doing is ranting anyway...

Do you have anything remotely worthwhile to add?

Mal-Adjusted

Antbert wrote: »

Do you have anything remotely worthwhile to add?

considering it's a barely worthwile thread for flamers?:D

CDfm

If a person is atheist it should be neutral on it.

Many religions have daily prayer rituals and in the middle east the world stops for 20 mins five times a day for prayer time.

WesternNight

Why should an athiest be neutral about it?

Religion should be a private matter for each individual person. Having a "religious minute" screaming in our ears on national television when we just want to watch the news is something everyone's entitled to have an opinion on.

Gone are the days when the entire nation believes much the same thing.

shanegj

Correct me if I'm wrong but with the whole blasphemy law being passed doesn't that make the Augelus on RTE against the law as it would be considered blasphemy to other religions.

Turtwig

Yeah it could be...(afraid I don't know whether I can correct you or not )

Anyways, I really believe (:eek:) that the time has come for the Angulus to say bye bye, and just have some sort of non denominational reflection period on tv. Right now it's like RTE are saying 'Catholics only please'...

*awaits the riot brigade*

Dades

shanegj wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but with the whole blasphemy law being passed doesn't that make the Augelus on RTE against the law as it would be considered blasphemy to other religions.

The angelus could hardly be shown to be intended to cause "outrage" amongst believers of other religions. It hails from a time when as far as anyone was concerned there were no other religions.

And the outrage shown by some people here doesn't really count. :pac:

CDfm

WesternNight wrote: »

Why should an athiest be neutral about it?

Religion should be a private matter for each individual person. Having a "religious minute" screaming in our ears on national television when we just want to watch the news is something everyone's entitled to have an opinion on.

I suppose if you think of yourself as an anti-theist you wouldn't.

I cant see why it would have any affect really on your life other than a quaint custom.

philologos

WesternNight wrote: »

Religion should be a private matter for each individual person. Having a "religious minute" screaming in our ears on national television when we just want to watch the news is something everyone's entitled to have an opinion on.

Your problem is that hardly any theist will actually agree with you. For people who believe, their beliefs define who they are in a certain way.

I don't see why religion should be a private matter at all. Freedom of speech and expression applies to all issues, including religion.

As for the Angelus, it wouldn't disturb me too much if it was scrapped. To be honest with you, I don't see a problem with it though.

gramlab

If you want to nit-pick then it probably should go. But there are much bigger issues out there than a few minutes of this a week.

Sort of works for me in a nostalgic kind of way. Also reminds me that even with our inflated sense of self importance during our "economic boom" we are still just little aul Ireland when it comes to it, with our own peculiar ways.

And still cracks me up when the old lady has her mini stroke in the kitchen. Now if they included pilots, surgeons, bus drivers and the like taking a pause, that would make good viewing.

Shazforgrub

I don't see any problem with the angelus playing before the news, I'm a non-practising catholic but as a country we are catholic in the majority and this should be respected. If you were in a muslim country do you think they would stop the call to prayer in case it offended other religions? Not a chance. I think we need to toughen up a bit in this country, I don't recall the full details but does anyone rember the incident a while back where the crib was removed from a hospital because it might offend people of a different faith? It sickens me that this ****e goes on, because imo it only serves to create tension between people of different faiths. What is the big deal with playing the angelus, or having a crib in a hospital, in a catholic country and how exactly does this offend people??

ShooterSF

Shazforgrub wrote: »

I don't see any problem with the angelus playing before the news, I'm a non-practising catholic but as a country we are catholic in the majority and this should be respected. If you were in a muslim country do you think they would stop the call to prayer in case it offended other religions? Not a chance. I think we need to toughen up a bit in this country, I don't recall the full details but does anyone rember the incident a while back where the crib was removed from a hospital because it might offend people of a different faith? It sickens me that this ****e goes on, because imo it only serves to create tension between people of different faiths. What is the big deal with playing the angelus, or having a crib in a hospital, in a catholic country and how exactly does this offend people??

You, my friend, have answered your own question really and uncovered the real reason some atheists have a problem with the angelus. We live in a catholic country. Our schools are run by the church, some of our old fashioned morals are from the church (abortion etc.). Hell it's even in our constitution.
Most, I imagine all, Irish atheists would prefer a religious neutral country. If you personally want to practice your religion in your own home or your church go for it but am I not as Irish as you are? Should my (lack of) beliefs not be catered for by my nation? What harm would it be to separate our church from our state?
Also, I don't mean to be rude but what exactly is a non-practising catholic? If you really believe in the christian god should you really not be worshipping him and following his strict rules out of fear of eternal damnation? At least I have the comforting thought that I don't believe hell exists. Why would someone that does risk walking down that path?

Zillah

Shazforgrub wrote: »

I don't see any problem with the angelus playing before the news, I'm a non-practising catholic but as a country we are catholic in the majority and this should be respected.

Ireland is a modern democracy. In this democracy there are Catholics, Atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Protestants and all sorts of other wacky beliefs. We are not a Catholic country, we are a country that happens to currently have a Catholic majority. It'd be sweet if you guys didn't abuse that majority and trample all over minorities.

If you were in a muslim country...

Ahahaha...yeah. Because we should look to the Middle East for guidelines on how to run a successful modern democracy. Or maybe you meant some where else, like Ethiopia? That's also a great idea?

Do you also look to Muslim countries as an example as to how we should run our judicial system? Maybe we should set up a Chop-Chop Square outside Mountjoy.

I think we need to toughen up a bit in this country

I agree. I'm sick of hearing Catholics all "Wah wah wah my Angelus" or "Boo hoo hoo my manger in a hospital". Get a backbone guys.

Shazforgrub

A non-practising Catholic; I don't go to church regularly. I still pray from time to time, and I attend mass on the major feast days. I'm not a great catholic at all, but I guess I still am part of the Catholic Church in a small way.

My point is:
the majority of the people in the country are catholics, this country has a strong history of catholicism be it good or bad, imo for the most part good, but thats for a different debate.They are not trying to trample on anyone elses rights just by showing the angelus, which is now a watered down 'time for reflection', or by placing cribs in public places. What if offends catholics to remove the angelus? what about their rights?

If the time ever comes when the majority of the country becomes atheist, then we can remove all traces of religion, but until then we are a catholic country in the majority

And obviously I am not trying to suggest that this country becomes more like Ethopia or other such countries, that point stems from visitors to this country claiming to be 'offended' with any public displays of faith, which I find extemely annoying, and where I feel the country such toughen up and not pander to every petty little grievance claimed by indivuals of a non-catholic denomination

The Mad Hatter

Quick! Look over there!

*cough*

Zillah

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

WTF? Zillah's psychic?

I...er, what?

CerebralCortex

Shazforgrub wrote: »

A non-practising Catholic; I don't go to church regularly. I still pray from time to time, and I attend mass on the major feast days. I'm not a great catholic at all, but I guess I still am part of the Catholic Church in a small way.

My point is:
the majority of the people in the country are catholics, this country has a strong history of catholicism be it good or bad, imo for the most part good, but thats for a different debate.They are not trying to trample on anyone elses rights just by showing the angelus, which is now a watered down 'time for reflection', or by placing cribs in public places. What if offends catholics to remove the angelus? what about their rights?

If the time ever comes when the majority of the country becomes atheist, then we can remove all traces of religion, but until then we are a catholic country in the majority

And obviously I am not trying to suggest that this country becomes more like Ethopia or other such countries, that point stems from visitors to this country claiming to be 'offended' with any public displays of faith, which I find extemely annoying, and where I feel the country such toughen up and not pander to every petty little grievance claimed by indivuals of a non-catholic denomination

I know your type, you probably vote FF too! :pac:

Shazforgrub

Take that back!!!:eek:

I have never in my life voted FF, and never will!

Mark Hamill

Shazforgrub wrote: »

A non-practising Catholic; I don't go to church regularly. I still pray from time to time, and I attend mass on the major feast days. I'm not a great catholic at all, but I guess I still am part of the Catholic Church in a small way.

According to some practising catholics, you wouldn't considered to be a catholic at all, in fact most catholics in ireland wouldn't be.

Shazforgrub wrote: »

My point is:
the majority of the people in the country are catholics, this country has a strong history of catholicism be it good or bad, imo for the most part good, but thats for a different debate.

We also have a strong history of potato famines, should we go back to that too?

Shazforgrub wrote: »

They are not trying to trample on anyone elses rights just by showing the angelus, which is now a watered down 'time for reflection', or by placing cribs in public places. What if offends catholics to remove the angelus? what about their rights?

Its not about offence, its about equality. Are the muslims allowed to have the call to prayer played on the national broadcaster for free five times a day? Are atheists allowed to proclaim that "there is probably no god, now stop worrying and enjoy your life" just before the nine o clock news?. What about the Jewish equivalent (the barechu, I think) or the scientologist equivalent (the call for money, probably) or hindu or buddhist too?

Shazforgrub wrote: »

If the time ever comes when the majority of the country becomes atheist, then we can remove all traces of religion, but until then we are a catholic country in the majority

No, we are a country with a catholic majority, which is not the same thing.

Shazforgrub wrote: »

And obviously I am not trying to suggest that this country becomes more like Ethopia or other such countries, that point stems from visitors to this country claiming to be 'offended' with any public displays of faith, which I find extemely annoying, and where I feel the country such toughen up and not pander to every petty little grievance claimed by indivuals of a non-catholic denomination

So the country should only pander to the petty little grievances claimed by indivuals of catholic denominations?

ShooterSF

Shazforgrub wrote: »

A non-practising Catholic; I don't go to church regularly. I still pray from time to time, and I attend mass on the major feast days. I'm not a great catholic at all, but I guess I still am part of the Catholic Church in a small way.

And the whole no contraceptives, no intercourse before marriage stuff right? That hell place sounds horrible.

My point is:
the majority of the people in the country are catholics, this country has a strong history of catholicism be it good or bad, imo for the most part good, but thats for a different debate.They are not trying to trample on anyone elses rights just by showing the angelus, which is now a watered down 'time for reflection', or by placing cribs in public places. What if offends catholics to remove the angelus? what about their rights?

They would have the same rights everyone else. Practice your religion in private. FSM forbid we have equality eh.
Also the catholic church been good for the country? Really? Wow.

If the time ever comes when the majority of the country becomes atheist, then we can remove all traces of religion, but until then we are a catholic country in the majority

**** it. I'm gonna take a novel approach. How about us Atheists accept the angelus and such in return all catholics pays an extra 1% levy on their wages to cover such things. And we keep this up while catholicism is in the majority?

And obviously I am not trying to suggest that this country becomes more like Ethopia or other such countries, that point stems from visitors to this country claiming to be 'offended' with any public displays of faith, which I find extemely annoying, and where I feel the country such toughen up and not pander to every petty little grievance claimed by indivuals of a non-catholic denomination

It's not just visitors is it? How many people on boards that you are debating with right now are tourists?

philologos

ShooterSF wrote: »

They would have the same rights everyone else. Practice your religion in private.

What on earth do you mean by that? If our religion shapes the way we act towards others, and what we consider to be moral or immoral, and what we perceive the universe to be. How can it be "private"?

The Mad Hatter

Zillah wrote: »

I...er, what?

*scratches head*

Right, I'm blaming that on my morning brain. I was sure that your post somehow magically appeared before the post you were responding to.

Uhm...I'll just go delete that post now.

ShooterSF

Jakkass wrote: »

What on earth do you mean by that? If our religion shapes the way we act towards others, and what we consider to be moral or immoral, and what we perceive the universe to be. How can it be "private"?

By practice I meant the praying stuff and such. Of course I don't expect people to ask themselves whether their personality exists because of their religion or not and to change it if it does, that's silly.

CDfm

A storm in a teacup.

This is how I see it. Belief is optional.The Angelus is traditional.Bells ringing for one or two minutes a day is about that.

The bells are ringing and the men are coming in from the fields etc...end of the day and dinner.

Its hardly brain washing

Shazforgrub

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No, we are a country with a catholic majority, which is not the same thing.

A catholic country in the majority is the same thing, you're just being pedant there.

And to suggest I'm looking for us to go back to the time of the potatoe famine is just bizzare really, since when is having a potatoe famine traditional???

I'm just going to finish with this:

I think playing the angelus is okay, I'm proud of the catholic tradition in this country, and you can lambast me for saying that but I'm entitled to my opinion, just like you're entitled to disagree.

I would like to see more public displays of faith and symbols of our religion around. If other people want to put up symbols of their faith too, thats fine by me, but don't crib about my crib:)

eoin5

Shazforgrub wrote: »

I would like to see more public displays of faith and symbols of our religion around. If other people want to put up symbols of their faith too, thats fine by me, but don't crib about my crib:)

Can everyone get free state funded airtime to do that? Yaay

Zombrex

Shazforgrub wrote: »

what about their rights?

What about their "rights"?

Is any Catholic in this country actually going to feel oppressed because they got rid of the Angelus?

Dades

Wicknight wrote: »

Is any Catholic in this country actually going to feel oppressed because they got rid of the Angelus?

I hate to say it but I would think undoubtedly yes.

In all likelihood not too many people would really care, until till some catholic group grasped the story, shook up some hysteria and made it sound like church burnings were next on the secular agenda.

CDfm

So where does the bell phobia come from

Dades

CDfm wrote: »

So where does the bell phobia come from

It used to mean you had to head for the Round Towers - the Vikings were coming. :pac:

CDfm

Dades wrote: »

It used to mean you had to head for the Round Towers - the Vikings were coming. :pac:

Ah the memes are back:pac:

CerebralCortex

CDfm wrote: »

Ah the memes are back:pac:

When did they leave?

Mark Hamill

Shazforgrub wrote: »

A catholic country in the majority is the same thing, you're just being pedant there.

No I am not. If this was a "Catholic country" then condoms would be illegal (as they were decades ago). Do you even know catholic dogma?

Shazforgrub wrote: »

And to suggest I'm looking for us to go back to the time of the potatoe famine is just bizzare really, since when is having a potatoe famine traditional???

Since when is something being traditional a good thing?

Shazforgrub wrote: »

I think playing the angelus is okay, I'm proud of the catholic tradition in this country, and you can lambast me for saying that but I'm entitled to my opinion, just like you're entitled to disagree.

If the catholics in this country want to band together and pay for the airtime to play the angelus on the national broadcaster, then fine, until then why should it be there for free?

Shazforgrub wrote: »

I would like to see more public displays of faith and symbols of our religion around. If other people want to put up symbols of their faith too, thats fine by me, but don't crib about my crib:)

RTE isn't your "crib" its everyones "crib", why should you be allowed to do what you want with RTE while other religions and world views cant? If people themselves want to display their own faith then fine, but the issue here is that our government is displaying a particular faith, which it shouldn't do.

Malari

CDfm wrote: »

So where does the bell phobia come from

Don't know, but my cat has bell-phobia. When the angeles comes on she runs around with her belly on the ground. She is terrified. We have to turn down the radio to relax her and then we always miss the news headlines. :pac:

Galvasean

'Leave the Angelus alone you heathens!'


Oh, and I think I love whoever put in those tags :pac:

Stheno

Mark Hamill wrote: »

RTE isn't your "crib" its everyones "crib", why should you be allowed to do what you want with RTE while other religions and world views cant? If people themselves want to display their own faith then fine, but the issue here is that our government is displaying a particular faith, which it shouldn't do.

Since when was RTE controlled by the government it has a public bradcasting remit.

Its controlled by legislation and the RTE Authority. It probably reflects its remit.

I like your thinking though -if RTE stopped broadcating stuff on the basis that somebody might be offended then Gerry Ryan and Ryan Tubridy would be off the air.

high horse

I saw this recently, its a spoof of the angelus on RTE... turn off the sound if a bell ringing bothers you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzRP7OKHcqQ

Mark Hamill

nouggatti wrote: »

Since when was RTE controlled by the government it has a public bradcasting remit.

Its controlled by legislation and the RTE Authority. It probably reflects its remit.

I like your thinking though -if RTE stopped broadcating stuff on the basis that somebody might be offended then Gerry Ryan and Ryan Tubridy would be off the air.

RTE is owned by the state and the management is appointed by the government. This means any preference for any one religion displayed by RTE reflects on the government