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The Angelus

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    #182
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    So, remove the religious remit and most of the Irish broadcasting sector would disappear down the plughole?

    Come on...

    Remove the licence fee and RTE would. If you think of it all these aspects of the public service broadcasting remit justify the licence fee. So essentially it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. So create a precedent to remove the public sector broadcasting remit and you take appart the justification for the licence fee.

    Personally - I would remove the licence fee and let RTE survive or not on its own merits.


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    #183
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    CDfm wrote: »
    Remove the licence fee and RTE would. If you think of it all these aspects of the public service broadcasting remit justify the licence fee. So essentially it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. So create a precedent to remove the public sector broadcasting remit and you take appart the justification for the licence fee.

    Personally - I would remove the licence fee and let RTE survive or not on its own merits.

    Right, you seem to be having conversation with yourself here, I'm afraid. All I am suggesting is that the state broadcaster not discriminate, on religious matters. They can make programmes about religion, but not actively endorse a religion, as they clearly do today.

    I cannot be any more explicit than this.


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    #184
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Antbert wrote: »
    Oh no. Only the majority elderly matter.

    I have an issue with this anyway. Who are we (who I presume are all quite youthful) to decide that "the elderly" are all weak-minded religious nuts? Also, you may argue that the Angelus serves to help said weak-minded religious nuts, but why do they need it? Why can't they just pray at 6pm anyway?

    I use the elderly as an example of a demographic.
    I did say quite a few pages ago that it may be a better course of action to wait until everyone who's currently 75+ is dead to scrap the Angelus. Just to get rid of this damn 'facilitating the elderly' argument.

    What is the demographic it caters for?
    And there is a massive vast gaping chasm of a difference between programmes ABOUT religion and religious bias programmes.

    Religious programming largely is produced by contributions from the churches so in that way religious programming has a bias. Programmes about religion would not have a devotional audience and in that way would not have appeal.


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    #185
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    CDfm wrote: »
    I use the elderly as an example of a demographic.



    What is the demographic it caters for?
    Er... I know. I don't see your point. I was putting forward a solution that agreed with you out of exasperation so I have no idea why you're arguing.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Religious programming largely is produced by contributions from the churches so in that way religious programming has a bias. Programmes about religion would not have a devotional audience and in that way would not have appeal.
    But... So?! Why does that matter?!


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    #186
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Antbert wrote: »
    Er... I know. I don't see your point. I was putting forward a solution that agreed with you out of exasperation so I have no idea why you're arguing.


    But... So?! Why does that matter?!

    What I am saying is that RTEs public broadcasting charter is so wide that it effectively makes programmes to reflect interest groups and be non offensive to those interest groups.

    A religious audience will cater for the faithful in a way that is not offensive to them.So its religious broadcasting will focus on the devotional aspects.The Angelus is part of that.

    I actually dont particularly like it but I can understand how it works.

    www.dcenr.gov.ie/.../PublishedPublicServiceBroadcastingCharter.doc


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    #187
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    CDfm wrote: »
    What I am saying is that RTEs public broadcasting charter is so wide that it effectively makes programmes to reflect interest groups and be non offensive to those interest groups.

    A religious audience will cater for the faithful in a way that is not offensive to them.So its religious broadcasting will focus on the devotional aspects.The Angelus is part of that.

    I actually dont particularly like it but I can understand how it works.

    www.dcenr.gov.ie/.../PublishedPublicServiceBroadcastingCharter.doc
    But isn't the whole point that the Angelus really only caters to the weak-minded elderly catholics? The religious audience is so marginal (if not, that's a whole other issue) that it'll hardly be detrimental to RTE to get rid of the devotional aspects of religious broadcasting. And even if it was, I still don't see why it matters! Not showing the angelus is not offensive. I'm kind of confused over what you're saying though so forgive me if that reply made no sense.


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    #188
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Antbert wrote: »
    But isn't the whole point that the Angelus really only caters to the weak-minded elderly catholics? The religious audience is so marginal (if not, that's a whole other issue) that it'll hardly be detrimental to RTE to get rid of the devotional aspects of religious broadcasting. And even if it was, I still don't see why it matters! Not showing the angelus is not offensive. I'm kind of confused over what you're saying though so forgive me if that reply made no sense.

    Thats OK. I dont have an axe to grind on the Angelus. I thought it was a good topic and wanted to think it thru. So when Galvesean asked the question it made me think as it is a valid point.

    I can see the devotional aspects of the religious broadcasting as a public service to that user. I can see that the audience is a marginalised one so I wonder how the service could be delivered to them otherwise and cant see how.

    I can't see the Late Late or Eastenders having a public service remit as the same service can and would be provided by TV3 given half the chance for free and not tie up resourses. So it seems to me that RTE want to cherrypick.

    I can imagine TV3 would boing on the hour and have Mass on Sundays if the licence fee was scrapped.


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    #189
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    For those who argue that we should remove the Angelus from TV, do you also think we should remove the Sunday Services that RTÉ broadcast from numerous different denominations, or should the BBC remove Songs of Praise for its religious content?


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    #190
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    should the BBC remove Songs of Praise for its religious content?

    NO!!!:)
    Blasted Boards can't scale up a smiley


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    #191
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jakkass wrote: »
    For those who argue that we should remove the Angelus from TV, do you also think we should remove the Sunday Services that RTÉ broadcast from numerous different denominations, or should the BBC remove Songs of Praise for its religious content?

    This is A&A so everyone is going to agree and say remove it. The debate has moved on to justify its inclusion or for atheists justify its discontinuation.

    Thats a bit more challenging.


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    #192
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    CDfm wrote: »
    This is A&A so everyone is going to agree and say remove it. The debate has moved on to justify its inclusion or for atheists justify its discontinuation.

    Thats a bit more challenging.

    Em, excuse me mister (missus?) but quite a few here have said they have no problem with religious programmes. Their issue is with the state siding mainly with one.


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    #193
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Em, excuse me mister (missus?) but quite a few here have said they have no problem with religious programmes. Their issue is with the state siding mainly with one.

    Its Sir to you:mad:

    The world was a better place when atheists kept quite or emigrated:D

    OK its semantics. So how would you allocate time for the various religions and what criteria would you use?


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    #194
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    CDfm wrote: »
    This is A&A so everyone is going to agree and say remove it.
    I don't care one jot if it stays or goes.

    Only those who have expressly said so should be assumed to want it gone.
    Agreement isn't an A&A requirement.


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    #195
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    NO!!!:)
    Blasted Boards can't scale up a smiley

    Songs of Praise leads people to atheism anyway, look at Jonathan Edwards :pac:
    Formerly a devout Christian, he also presented episodes of the BBC Christian worship programme Songs of Praise until his loss of faith in 2007.


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    #196
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Dades wrote: »
    I don't care one jot if it stays or goes.

    Only those who have expressly said so should be assumed to want it gone.
    Agreement isn't an A&A requirement.

    Sorry I didnt mean to stereotype A&A. The subject matter made me think.

    Lots of religious broadcasting is poor and the criticism of it is justified. I wouldnt miss the Angelus and its like a religious advert before the news.

    The point I was making to Jackass was that to rely on devotional broadcasting as a public service he should justify it.


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    #197
    Nobrow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 93 ✭✭Nobrow


    Does anybody remember years ago Colin Murphy (I think) on an RTE program he used to host, the name of which I can't remember, took the piss out of the then new look angelus with all the people stopping what they were doing and gazing contemplatively into nothingness?

    His line was that they were preaching to the converted and that they should shoot a version featuring people who needed a little religion. So he showed one with blokes beating each other and a guy pissing on a postbox etc. stopping and gazing at the sound of the bells. ****ing hilarious.

    Oh, and yeah, its an embarrassment and an affront that that **** is still played by our public broadcaster.


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    #198
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nobrow: So just because something can be satirised it is embarrassing? Embarrassing to whom? For me it's just something that RTÉ put up as a call to prayer of sorts. If that works, then all well and good. I rarely actually have the channel on RTÉ at 6pm anyway.


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    #199
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nobrow wrote: »
    Does anybody remember years ago Colin Murphy (I think) on an RTE program he used to host, the name of which I can't remember, took the piss out of the then new look angelus with all the people stopping what they were doing and gazing contemplatively into nothingness?

    Oh, and yeah, its an embarrassment and an affront that that **** is still played by our public broadcaster.

    The quality is awful and its embarrassing. Its like Joe Duffy.

    The more I think about it the less I like it.

    What next -will I turn Protestant:eek:


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    #200
    Nobrow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 93 ✭✭Nobrow


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nobrow: So just because something can be satirised it is embarrassing? Embarrassing to whom? For me it's just something that RTÉ put up as a call to prayer of sorts. If that works, then all well and good. I rarely actually have the channel on RTÉ at 6pm anyway.

    Let people believe whatever fantastical nonsense they like, regardless of how unfounded it may be; that's their problem. But when the state owned publicly funded national broadcaster starts giving those fantastical notions credibility by beaming them around the country at prime time as though they were some nationally agreed beliefs, then it is embarrassing to us all.

    The churches already presume to ring the angelus twice a day from their giant speakers into my home and the homes of most of the country. Let those lucky enough to live out of earshot of those buildings set an alarm on their phone to remind them that it is time to worship their imaginary friend god, and take this primitive nonsense off the airwaves.


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    #201
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nobrow wrote: »
    Let people believe whatever fantastical nonsense they like, regardless of how unfounded it may be; that's their problem. But when the state owned publicly funded national broadcaster starts giving those fantastical notions credibility by beaming them around the country at prime time as though they were some nationally agreed beliefs, then it is embarrassing to us all.

    I don't see how it is embarrassing to us all, if many of us believe in God, and believe in the "fantastical notions" that have been given to us by Christianity.

    Personally the Angelus isn't something I particularly notice, it's not something I'm opposed to either. However, your post isn't about the Angelus really, it's about the idea of Christianity being discussed on television.

    So I take it you are opposed to Spirit Level a new programme by Joe Duffy on Sundays for Christian based discussion:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0214/1233867937751.html

    Although me and Malty_T would be grieved at the loss of Songs of Praise, should the BBC remove that because it is a religious based programme?

    The BBC's programme offers a lot because of the more sceptical viewpoints of other channels on religion such as Channel 4. It offers balance and gives those who are believers to present their case.

    Personally I think TV would be worse off for ignoring faith and religion in their programming schedules. I've yet to see what is embarrassing in having religious broadcasting considering the majority of people in Ireland do still believe in God.
    Nobrow wrote: »
    The churches already presume to ring the angelus twice a day from their giant speakers into my home and the homes of most of the country.

    Generally it is only a bell. Bear in mind many Protestant churches also ring their bells on a Sunday morning.
    Nobrow wrote: »
    Let those lucky enough to live out of earshot of those buildings set an alarm on their phone to remind them that it is time to worship their God, and take this primitive nonsense off the airwaves.
    Fixed your post.

    If your point was only applicable to the Angelus, I would understand that. However, it is applicable to all religious broadcasting on TV.


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    #202
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    CDfm wrote: »
    So how would you allocate time for the various religions and what criteria would you use?

    I do believe the point is that it is more reasonable to discriminate in favour of none, instead of favouring all.

    Jedi Angelus?


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    #203
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't see how it is embarrassing to us all, if many of us believe in God, and believe in the "fantastical notions" that have been given to us by Christianity.

    Personally the Angelus isn't something I particularly notice, it's not something I'm opposed to either. However, your post isn't about the Angelus really, it's about the idea of Christianity being discussed on television.

    So I take it you are opposed to Spirit Level a new programme by Joe Duffy on Sundays for Christian based discussion:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0214/1233867937751.html
    No. I'm not (and I assume most other anti-Angelus people aren't either) opposed to religion being discussed on television. What a ludicrous notion. I'm opposed to BIASED religion, such as the angelus. Surely you can see the difference between that and a Joe Duffy discussion show?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Although me and Malty_T would be grieved at the loss of Songs of Praise, should the BBC remove that because it is a religious based programme?
    I can't answer that because I've never watched Songs of Praise... Is it biased? Is it from the point of view of COE? Or is it informative?

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Personally I think TV would be worse off for ignoring faith and religion in their programming schedules. I've yet to see what is embarrassing in having religious broadcasting considering the majority of people in Ireland do still believe in God.
    Well... That's because you believe in a god.


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    #204
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Songs of Praise has a musical element to it as well as the religious one. I'm quite happy to keep religious music even though it promotes religion. Christian rock excepted, obviously.

    I don't think The Angelus can be defended on musical grounds, unless you're a serious minimalist.


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    #205
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Antbert wrote: »
    No. I'm not (and I assume most other anti-Angelus people aren't either) opposed to religion being discussed on television. What a ludicrous notion. I'm opposed to BIASED religion, such as the angelus. Surely you can see the difference between that and a Joe Duffy discussion show?

    The Joe Duffy discussion show is Christian based. They discussed about Frank Hogan (John 3:7 sign guy) and the relationship between the GAA and Catholicism last time it was shown.
    Antbert wrote: »
    I can't answer that because I've never watched Songs of Praise... Is it biased? Is it from the point of view of COE? Or is it informative?

    It's pretty much based on COE worship, and church music, and they have a theme each week based on discussion. I think last weeks was on creation and they went in a bit into the background of the opening of Genesis. Occasionally they do discuss with people of other denominations. But it's an insight into Christianity in Britain on a weekly basis.
    Antbert wrote: »
    Well... That's because you believe in a god.

    Not particularly. It's reasonable that if a large base of viewers have a religious interest that part of the schedule should be attributed to this. Both RTÉ and the BBC have made that decision.


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    #206
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Antbert wrote: »
    I can't answer that because I've never watched Songs of Praise... Is it biased? Is it from the point of view of COE? Or is it informative?

    Judge for yourself, I've got no problem with it.
    Beats woeful rock anyday:)

    Google 'BBC Songs of Praise'


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    #207
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They discussed about Frank Hogan (John 3:7 sign guy) and the relationship between the GAA

    Yeah that was brilliant!Great insight into him. I gained a huge pile of respect for the guy too, especially when he said he wouldn't force anybody to be Christian... can't remember precisely but what he said about his sons beliefs was lovely. Basically, it's up to him, not me.

    Plus : the reaction he was getting from other match goers was funneh:)


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    #208
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Bottom line here is this: RTE have the Angelus on at 6 pm every evening. I for one am not a Catholic but I don't have a problem with them showing this. If I'm that offended, I can switch channels.
    RTE also show alot of disgusting programmes such as Podge & Rodge. How anyone with a sound mind can watch this and call it entertainment is beyond me. I don't like-I don't watch. Simple as...


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    #209
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    As a non RC myself I see no personal need for the Angelus, I think its from a by-gone era, I think the concept is totally outdated, without modern day meaning, and totally biased in favour of one Religion only > namely 'Roman Catholicism' . . .

    I just flick over to the Beeb for the news at six.


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    #210
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Angelus undergoes revamp but gongs remain the same
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0919/1224254866639.html


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    #211
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    pH wrote: »
    Angelus undergoes revamp but gongs remain the same
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0919/1224254866639.html
    An interesting detail revealed by Mr Childs is that the Angelus is “Ireland’s most watched religious programme, with an average of 318,000 viewers every day”.

    From the RTE Website you have this
    . The average programme audience for Prime Time since September has been approximately 450,000.

    The Angelus has more support than I thought.


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