What is 'Irish' anyway?

Long Onion

Loads of threads recently, banging on about the Lisbon Treaty and how it will be bad for our sovereignty, buying Irish goods to support Ireland, foreign workers tukking ur jawbs, blighty stealing our counties, yadda yadda yadda.

Got me thinking, now that we have no comely maidens left to dance at the crossroads, now that the land of one hundred thousand welcomes has been replaced by the land of miserable service industry workers, now that travel is easy and cheap, that the world wide web has created knowledge without frontiers, what exactly is 'Irish' anymore.

What cultural ideals are we clinging to, what are we afraid of losing? I finished reading one of Obama's books recently and I am depressed to think that chosen representatives are a million miles removed from this man (i am not commenting on his politiacl reign so far, just his intellect and view on what politics should be). The sniping and squabbling amongst the population about NAMA, Lisbon etc has been revaeling. Where is our sense of the greater good gone? To be honest, I don't know anymore and the sad thing is, I don't think I care.

I am this close to saying "Fcuk Ireland, fcuk Irish culture, let me be European instead at least then I wouldn't have to convince myself that there is anything worth saving anymore."

Can someone please persuade me that there is something left to hold on to?:(

I_am_Jebus

no. there is nothing.

topper75

You are spot on about our identity crisis. I think it is driven by the whole 'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' problem. But that is a whole other story.

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

If our culture has fallen by the wayside, Britain is done for completely.

MelonieHead

Long Onion wrote: »

now that the land of one hundred thousand welcomes has been replaced by the land of miserable service industry workers

I've never been able to figure out just how Ireland got that particular reputation.

Jay P

topper75 wrote: »

You are spot on about our identity crisis. I think it is driven by the whole 'Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam' problem. But that is a whole other story.

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

If our culture has fallen by the wayside, Britain is done for completely.

Well if it means anything, one of our most recognisable traits as Irish people is our friendliness. Now, before you all say it doesn't exist anymore, Iw as talking to an American at work last night and he said he loved coming to Ireland because the people are so nice. No, I was a bit skeptical, but I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have said it unless he had meant it, as did every other guest at that wedding (all Americans). Is this enough to hold hope for Irish culture? Not likely. Who still speaks Irish? Nobody. As a nation, we have made the collective decision to turn our backs on tradition as the celtic tiger turned us all into money-hungry basterds. Possibly the one idealism we still retain is GAA. But even the GAA is flawed. This supposedly amateur organisation left its amateur grassroots behind, unfortunately.

When I gro up, I will probably emmigrate, and what will I bring with me? I can't think of anything that will remind me that I'm Irish.

thomond2006

Ireland ain't so bad.

armaghbhoy

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Long Onion

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Yep, and then we will be forced to take the swineflu vaccine which actually contains nanoreceptors capable of picking up secret communications about the New World Order which are buried deep within the lyrics of Dana records.:rolleyes:

How's Jim Corr these days?

Neamhshuntasach

I don't need anything to reaffirm my belief and proudness that i'm Irish. I'm Irish and i know i am. That's it.

Long Onion

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

I don't need anything to reaffirm my belief and proudness that i'm Irish. I'm Irish and i know i am. That's it.

But what is it about your 'irishness' that makes you proud?

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

Is it the fact that we have no idea how to fix a problem but despite this, we are certain that the 'other sides' idea is wrong.

Is it the fact that the weather is p1ssy?

Is it our fine pork produce?

Roy Keane?

What is it about 'irishness' particularly that makes people proud?

phasers

Isn't it a language or something?

Elmo

phasers wrote: »

Isn't it a language or something?

- people of Ireland or of Irish extraction
- whiskey made in Ireland chiefly from barley
- the Celtic language of Ireland
- of or relating to or characteristic of Ireland or its people

If it helps. I have heard nothing about anyone talking about how the Lisbon treaty give up our Irishness or jobs to "non-nationals" etc. Problem with the Yes and No side they are both telling us that either there are jobs after Lisbon or that the mini wage will be reduce because of Lisbon. This kind of nonsense from both side is particurlarly bad and pointless.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam'

I always wonder how well we would have done if we all spoke Irish, as well as the other European nations that don't speak English. The mantra of "Ireland is a leading economy due to the English language" becomes less and less of an advantage IMO most countries have English as their Second language some even as their 3rd or 4th.

asdasd

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

the only whinging and moaning on this thread is you. You are a fine example typical of the "I hate Ireland because people moan" brigade.

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

Sh*t. Can't think. On the tip of my tongue, though.

Long Onion

asdasd wrote: »

the only whinging and moaning on this thread is you. You are a fine example typical of the "I hate Ireland because people moan" brigade.

Sometimes, irony is the best way of getting a point across.

asdasd wrote: »

What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

Sh*t. Can't think. On the tip of my tongue, though.

It's "Damnautocracy" I believe.

dlofnep

If you're Irishhhhhhhhhhhhhh get out of the garden!

Long Onion

Elmo wrote: »

If it helps. I have heard nothing about anyone talking about how the Lisbon treaty give up our Irishness or jobs to "non-nationals" etc. Problem with the Yes and No side they are both telling us that either there are jobs after Lisbon or that the mini wage will be reduce because of Lisbon. This kind of nonsense from both side is particurlarly bad and pointless.

You missed the fella from the UK independence party on the radio yesterday evening. I thought it ironic that he was telling us how important a no vote was for Ireland to retain its sovereignty, but he stuck it to Lucinda Creighton though when she mentioned 1916.

Elmo

Long Onion wrote: »

You missed the fella from the UK independence party on the radio yesterday evening. I thought it ironic that he was telling us how important a no vote was for Ireland to retain its sovereignty, but he stuck it to Lucinda Creighton though when she mentioned 1916.

Why would I listen to foreigners* :rolleyes:

Long Onion

Elmo wrote: »

Why would I listen to foreigners* :rolleyes:

Because if you did, you may hear their greater plan, that they are only here to tuk ar jawbs and child benefit. Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

Elmo

Long Onion wrote: »

Because if you did, you may hear their greater plan, that they are only here to tuk ar jawbs and child benefit. Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

We only do that when we have done something illegal over here and generally we set up an Irish bar with funds we "legitimately" got while claiming Irish state benefit in Portugal, the weather is nice but the social welfare is ****.

ChocolateSauce

Ireland is where I grew up, it is the culture I am familiar with, and that culture is highly Anglo-Saxon, but with a unique blend of wishful thinking and faking.

Lisbon won't do any damage to our culture- that damage was done long, long ago, and the EU has been nothing but supportive of the identities of each member state.

Fratton Fred

I fail to see what lisbon has got to do with "Irishness" personally. All cultures are being slowly diluted as the world becomes a smaller place and the US multinationals increase their influence.

joiing the EU isn't going to stop that.

whitetigerkungf

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

is it not Mediocrity but i dont know where your getting the D from:D

philologos

Ireland is a lot of things. Ultimately, Ireland and Irish are going to be what cultural character is exhibited from Ireland at a particular time. We need to be open to the fact that what Irish is now is a very different thing than what Irish was back in previous ages.

Ireland is defined by the people who live in it whether they are migrants from overseas, or people who have been born and raised in Ireland. I would personally conclude that all people who are living in Ireland could be rightly considered Irish.

As racial / ethnic homogenity is undermined further through a more multicultural world, it will be impossible for us to assume that Irish merely refers to an ethnicity but the cultural character of Ireland at a given time, which as always is subject to change.

asdasd

Us Irish would never think about moving to other countries to do the same now, would we?

Whataboutary. In most cases Irish immigration is to work. There is little incentive to leave the 200 euro a week and go get the 45 euro a week elsewhere.


There was always a lot of **** talked about this. I remember back in the 80's as a kid watching some TV program where the "working class" ( generally the lumpens) saying they were hit hardest by emigration. Bollocks. It was the country working class,lower middle class, and even graduate class which emigrated, and then the city based versions. The upper classes stayed here, and the lumpens. Both had it better.

opposition to the EU becuase of immigration makes sense for the working classes, doesnt it?

asdasd

I would personally conclude that all people who are living in Ireland could be rightly considered Irish.

You'd be wrong. Irishness is an ethnic marker, not a civic nationalism, and certainly not something you get by emigrating. The same is true in England. You can immigrate but you will be Irish, not English ( if you are Irish). And so on. Japan for instance. It would be the height of absurdity to go there and claim that you are Japanese.

philologos

asdasd wrote: »

You'd be wrong. Irishness is an ethnic marker, not a civic nationalism, and certainly not something you get by emigrating. The same is true in England. You can immigrate but you will be Irish, not English ( if you are Irish). And so on. Japan for instance. It would be the height of absurdity to go there and claim that you are Japanese.

Ethnicity as a defining marker is dwindling in many societies, I reckon Ireland will also follow the same path over the next century at least.

It doesn't particularly matter in England whether you are Pakistani, Punjabi, Hindu, Jewish, Arab, Persian or any other number of ethnicities that you can be, you are still British if you are eligible to the citizenship standard.

Pretty much in Ireland, if you are of any ethnic group, as long as you are eligible to the citizenship standard you are effectively Irish. I know people who are of different ethnic groups in Ireland who would be just as Irish as anyone else in expression.

We have to decide whether or not Ireland is going to be an inclusive society (I.E Irishness as a concept being very open) to being an exclusive society (I.E Irishness as a concept being very closed).

It's not even really that ethnicity is a defining marker in Ireland now, if you think about it more closely, Irish people are made up of quite a number of different ethnicities from Norman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon, and so on. The first Irish were from the Basque country if we go by the Rb1 Y-chromosone. We are already a mix of differing ethnicities whether we like it or not.

asdasd

It's not even really that ethnicity is a defining marker in Ireland now, if you think about it more closely, Irish people are made up of quite a number of different ethnicities from Norman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon, and so on. The first Irish were from the Basque country if we go by the Rb1 Y-chromosone. We are already a mix of differing ethnicities whether we like it or not.

Firstly, hardly. All of these people intermarried - which is a biological act. Where they didn't <cough> ulster unionists</cough> they didnt consider themselve Irish.

Ethnic groups form over time. The English are Anglo Saxon-Celtic but most English history has happened since the arrival of the Angles and Saxons.

It doesn't particularly matter in England whether you are Pakistani, Punjabi, Hindu, Jewish, Arab, Persian or any other number of ethnicities that you can be, you are still British if you are eligible to the citizenship standard.

British is not an ethnicity. It is a citizenship. The nations of Britain are Scotland, Wales,a nd England.

The idea that nationalism is fading is, by the way, the **** of a few declining deracianated Western elites who arent reproducing. China is not going univeral and anti-nationalist, neither is Japan, neither the Middle East, neither is Eastern Europe, neither (for that matter) is anywhere else in the world. Certainly not Russia. The ideas of a non-national future are bunk. It is the primal force driving man-kind.

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

genericguy

whitetigerkungf wrote: »

With respect to NAMA; some people agree with the idea, some people don't and voice their disagreements. What's the word that rhymes with Memocracy and begins with D which defines this system?

is it not Mediocrity but i dont know where your getting the D from:D

abortion?

asdasd

In any case I was arguing against the point that anybody living If Ireland ( for how long?) is Irish... they dont even believe that themselves, and most dont have Irish passports. When born and brought up here they become Irish. But that has not happened yet, in most cases.

asdasd

abortion?

Um, no. that would not begin with D, now would it? Although I suppose we democratically oppose abortion, and so we dont get it, if that is what you mean.

blinding

Maybe we should keep a little war against the british going somewhere just to keep our Irish identity going.

Fighting the Brits has been such an important part of our Irish identity that I sort of miss it;)

If I am Irish I am not anything else am I, except I could be British-Irish(or is that Irish-British). Ahh ahh pass me a bódhran and some protestant guinness will you. Is that some crooked politician/banker I see coming in the door (jeez those guns could come in useful yet). Ahh a hurley will have to do or at least a smather in the face with the big ball.(additional edit: maybe even a cricket bat these days)

And to top it all no oil or natural resources and weather that would drown a tough fooking duck and even deep in that kind of s**t property prices were out of this world.

So to sum up we could do with a scrap against the brits if they think they are hard enough, we will keep the old sectarianism going(it still going strong in some parts of the country). Throw in a bit of Irish music and the GAA. Some less heavy Guinness for our less virile younger generation.
Probably will keep some begrudgers but fook them anyway and of course we must keep some examples of big time Charlies (and Charlettes) from the Celtic pussy years.

Now if the rest of ye think like me then your Irish and if you don't your not. Fooking hell will the rain never stop is that a big pike I see coming up the garden path.

I better be going there are two fellas in white coats carrying an interesting jacket in hot pursuit of the pike.