What is 'Irish' anyway?

asdasd

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase. If anyone doubts the colonialist sleeveenisn of such sad f*ckers, imagine a country uncolonised making the same remarks about it's culture. A frenchman, for instance?

So whats going on here? Well after years of colonisation I think that - if we accept that culture partly a construct - some Irish people became effectively English. They havent moved on from anti-irish racism either, unlike the actual real English.

BennyLava

It really depends on where your coming from, nationalists will have one way for defining 'Irishness' while those of a more liberal persuasion would have a different way

There are various ways of defining it, cultural, ethnic, historic, dependent on which criteria you use the results will throw up a different mix

To my mind there are at least 5 types of Irish in the world at the moment
Southern, Ulster Unionist, Traveller, foreign born Irish diaspora, and New Irish (immigrant children born here)

Irish covers them all, and all have a unique interpretation of what it is to be Irish.

Captain Furball

philologos

asdasd wrote: »

Firstly, hardly. All of these people intermarried - which is a biological act. Where they didn't <cough> ulster unionists</cough> they didnt consider themselve Irish.

That's my point. All of them intermarried, hence why Irish isn't a singular ethnic group, it is a compound of many, and it will continue to be a compound of many.

As for Ulster Unionists not considering themselves Irish, that's not entirely true, in many cases people consider themselves British and Irish, just as others would consider themselves Welsh and British, or English and British.

asdasd wrote: »

Ethnic groups form over time. The English are Anglo Saxon-Celtic but most English history has happened since the arrival of the Angles and Saxons.

They form from many differing ethnic groups which have come previously. Most likely that will happen again, and what is Irish will be very different biologically as well as culturally in the future.

asdasd wrote: »

British is not an ethnicity. It is a citizenship. The nations of Britain are Scotland, Wales,a nd England.

Indeed, it's a national identity. Irish can be too. It depends how one defines it. Personally I think if you are an Irish citizen you are Irish and you should be regarded as such.

asdasd wrote: »

The idea that nationalism is fading is, by the way, the **** of a few declining deracianated Western elites who arent reproducing. China is not going univeral and anti-nationalist, neither is Japan, neither the Middle East, neither is Eastern Europe, neither (for that matter) is anywhere else in the world. Certainly not Russia. The ideas of a non-national future are bunk. It is the primal force driving man-kind.

I'd call it reality. I never said that Ireland won't be a nation, but that Ireland will be a very different nation from what it was in the past. As for China, Japan, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. You are picking homogenous societies by and large. Of course this notion isn't declining there because they haven't had the same migration experience that we are having in Western Europe and in the USA. If or should I say when this occurs in these areas, there will be the same net effect on their societies as it is having on ours.

We have the choice of either embracing it, or opposing it strongly.

asdasd wrote: »

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

The BNP and UKIP are perfect examples of those who have decided to oppose change in demographics strongly.

The nationalist movements such as the SNP, although separatist movements are going to have to deal with changes in demographics, and changes in cultural group if Scotland ever does separate itself from the UK.

asdasd wrote: »

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

Considering that Sinn Féin and the SNP are centre-left parties. I think it's quite funny that you claim that they have done what they have.

The BNP is a party which is of the far right breed that is growing in Europe at the minute, along with the National Front in France, Vlaams Blok in Belguim. One of the downsides of this is that they only serve to fragment their societies more in the light of an inevitable migration trend. Being opposed to immigration in such a strong way only encourages people not to wish to integrate. Welcoming and embracing people encourages them in turn to embrace the societies that they live in.

As for UKIP, the last point is very much applicable to them also.

Thankfully Ireland has been spared the growth of the NRR (new radical right). I think Ireland should deal with migration in a constructive manner, rather than in a destructive manner.

blinding

asdasd wrote: »

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase. If anyone doubts the colonialist sleeveenisn of such sad f*ckers, imagine a country uncolonised making the same remarks about it's culture. A frenchman, for instance?

So whats going on here? Well after years of colonisation I think that - if we accept that culture partly a construct - some Irish people became effectively English. They havent moved on from anti-irish racism either, unlike the actual real English.

Don't take my post too seriously as you can see at the end that this view is my view on a crazy day (lunatic to the asylum)

But that does not mean that these crazy views cannot be examined.

I personally believe that our failure to secure a proper political settlement for the entire Island of Ireland is a major stumbling block to our maturing as a nation. There are "Peace" walls between communities in places on this Island. How can a nation reach maturity when such a situation exists in this day and age.

Elmo

asdasd wrote: »

In the UK for instance, a multi-national State, there are 4-5 seperatist movements. The SNP, Sinn Fein, Plyd Cymru. Even English Democrats and Cornish Nationalists ( who did better than Labour in the last election in Cornwall). Besides this motley crew we have pan-UK nationalists including the UKIP and the BNP.

Declining nationalism? In total these parties wiped the arse of the Left.

Aren't the unionist British Nationalist?

Declining nationalism, increasing Internationalism or if I state that I am a European amn't I a Euro Nationalist?

Neamhshuntasach

Long Onion wrote: »

But what is it about your 'irishness' that makes you proud?

Is it the fact that we can agree on nothing and whinge and moan that everything is the fault of someone else.

Is it the fact that we have no idea how to fix a problem but despite this, we are certain that the 'other sides' idea is wrong.

Is it the fact that the weather is p1ssy?

Is it our fine pork produce?

Roy Keane?

What is it about 'irishness' particularly that makes people proud?

What makes me proud to be Irish? The culture, the history, the sport, the language, friends, family, the landscape, the accents, lots of things. I don't need the actions of others or of Ireland to justify my pride. I don't care if we aren't winning world cups, have crap weather, are partly occupied by a foreign power, a laughable political playground or as you put, people with conflicting opinions and a willingness to blame others. Your judging that collectively. I don't have any of those traits you listed and even if i did. I wouldn't be uniquely sharing them with just the people of Ireland. I agree with a lot of things. Same way i disagree with a lot of things. That's freewill. And i don't moan and whinge and blame others. And if i can fix something i will.

I've lived and been to a lot of countries. And i can honestly say the fact i had that privilege increased my Irish pride even more. I know people have said we are a nation of begrudgers but it seems lately that the new trend is self hatred. The amount of threads putting down Ireland by Irish people is unbelievable.

Míshásta

We're just English without the Royal family.

Sin a bhfuil de.

Salvelinus

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

Think you got tin foil poisoning

tonycascarino

topper75 wrote: »

But is the solution to this to plunge headlong into 'Europe'. I mean what is this Europe project about anyway? There are too many diverse entities within it to have any meaning or identity. I like travelling around Europe and love meeting the people and learning about their cultures. But we can't adopt theirs really.

I have to agree with everything that you just said. I think European integration has gone far enough to be completely honest.

Elmo

blinding wrote: »

If I am Irish I am not anything else am I, except I could be British-Irish(or is that Irish-British). Ahh ahh pass me a bódhran and some protestant guinness will you. Is that some crooked politician/banker I see coming in the door (jeez those guns could come in useful yet). Ahh a hurley will have to do or at least a smather in the face with the big ball.

The word your looking for is Anglo-Irish. And it would be protestant Bushmills And sure enough with your bódhran your away in a hack, just don't call the bank Anglo-Irish as that might be pushing it a bit TBH.

An Fear Aniar

Sovereignty isn't about our culture. It's about real day-to-day issues like being able to make our own laws and set our own taxes.

It's not about Irish identity, it's about the group of people who live within the state's borders being able to manage their own affairs.

.

Jesus Juice

Bacon and Cabbage with a pint of milk.

Elmo

Jesus Juice wrote: »

Bacon and Cabbage with a pint of milk.

What about the Spuds?

Rebelheart

asdasd wrote: »

Blinding is a good example of the anti-Irish Irish. A plethora of racist insults which would have been common enough in the Daily Mail in their anti-Irish phase.

Has that passed?

According to John S. Doyle in his review of the daily papers on Morning Ireland yesterday morning the Daily Mail had an editorial and several opinion pieces calling for the Irish to align with British nationalists and reject the Lisbon Treaty.

I know Lisbon is good for Ireland when the historically anti-Irish British rightwing is raging against it.

Jesus Juice

Elmo wrote: »

What about the Spuds?

Nah Bacon and Cabbage is for when you want a break from spuds ya see!!

Snakeblood

armaghbhoy wrote: »

just read about a poll that shows a fall in the number of people in support of the lisbon treaty..but either way this will be forced upon the Irish people. thats why theres another vote. They need this to happen so no matter what it will happen. Then soon enough it will join with the North American Union, Asian Union and the African Union, forming a one world government.

I'm keeping my urine in jars as a precaution against this happening. I recommend all others do the same.

Rebelheart

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Ireland is where I grew up, it is the culture I am familiar with, and that culture is highly Anglo-Saxon .... Lisbon won't do any damage to our culture- that damage was done long, long ago, and the EU has been nothing but supportive of the identities of each member state.

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

philologos

Rebelheart wrote: »

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Has it? In what way? If anything I'd think that Ireland has much more of a likeness to the UK than anywhere else in Europe.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

I'm not so sure by what you mean when you say "European human and civic rights, European moral values, and European environmental ideas and legislation".

Likewise I'm not so sure when you use the term "suffocating intolerance".

Progress, advancement and civilisation all mean different things to different people.

If you could give some concrete examples it might make it easier for us to know what exactly you mean when you use these terms.

Elmo

Rebelheart wrote: »

If the culture you grew up with in Ireland is "highly Anglo-Saxon" then I'm afraid for you that the European Union, of which Lisbon is a part, has done immense damage to that culture in Ireland.

Roll on the metric system, European legislation, European human and civic rights, European moral values, European environmental ideas and legislation, and much, much else. What a refreshing break from the suffocating intolerance, backwardness and dominance of the British state and its rabidly nationalistic cheerleaders in Ireland. Roll on progress, advancement and, yes, civilisation.

That makes no sense. Your bemoaning the lose "highly Anglo-Saxon" culture of Ireland, a culture that does little to reflect the real lives of people in this country. Have I missed the European Newspapers, TV channels and operas that everyone is raving about

So we now have the metric system and Decsmilization. You think this was the 1970s.

The British State did bring many advancement into Democracy however they often forgot to give it to the people or as they referred to them as Subjects.

Long Onion

I suppose the inital post did what it set out to do and got the debate flowing. It's interesting and, I believe, heartening to see that there is such a diversity of feelings, happenings, and relationships that make us think that we 'belong'.

Personally, I believe that I am Irish because of a myriad of things from the good old begrudgery, to the unique wit, the passion of our writers, our musicians, our artists, the anti-NAMAists, the pro-NAMAists, the anti-Lisbonites, the pro-Lisbonites, the Keane supporters, the McCarthy supporters, people who like George Hook, people ho want to punch him in the face.

The fact that we are willing to debate the issues whether we believe we can solve the problem or not, that we want to buy Irish, that we refuse to do so because it's too dear. The fact that we whinge and tell others to stop whinging. The fact that we can choose to be racist and to admonish others for being so. The fact that we can make jokes about all the above and still relate, positively or negatively, to our peers.

The fact that we have the freedom to do all this, and the means and time in which to do it - this is what makes me feel Irish and I very much love it. Sure, the same things may make the French feel French and the British feel British, but that in no way detracts from the fact that I smile very often - even when it's raining.

Thank you Boards.

flanum

Long Onion wrote: »

Can someone please persuade me that there is something left to hold on to?:(

TITS!

Run_to_da_hills

Rebelheart wrote: »

Has that passed?

According to John S. Doyle in his review of the daily papers on Morning Ireland yesterday morning the Daily Mail had an editorial and several opinion pieces calling for the Irish to align with British nationalists and reject the Lisbon Treaty.

I know Lisbon is good for Ireland when the historically anti-Irish British right wing is raging against it.

I would totally agree, We need all we can to keep the wolf away from the door. :eek:

I think its great to see hard line UK Right wing, Ulster Unionist and Republican groups siding on a common cause.

Slugs

Rebelheart wrote: »

Has that passed?

According to John S. Doyle in his review of the daily papers on Morning Ireland yesterday morning the Daily Mail had an editorial and several opinion pieces calling for the Irish to align with British nationalists and reject the Lisbon Treaty.

I know Lisbon is good for Ireland when the historically anti-Irish British rightwing is raging against it.

That's a very naive take on it. It doesn't matter what a person's political agenda, beliefs, history or even there thoughts on morality are. If they're RIGHT, they're RIGHT. They could be Neo-Nazi, paedophilic, necrophiliac, sadistic terrorist, but they'd still be right.

Lisbon is a bad deal for Ireland, let alone any country, and is the beginning of a political agenda to turn Europe, a definition used to describe countries within a territory, into an actual government, and reducing the ability of the member states and ultimately the citizen. But that's neither here nor there.

I think without the Irish language, Ireland really is nothing. I'm not competitent speaking the language, and recently dropped to Pass, but I still think it's part of our identity. And it's all we have to identify us. People can sh*te on all they want about our sports being a source of Identity, but until Hurling and Gaelic football get an international stage, it'll never be a source of identity. As far as I can see, we're finally showing our true identity, the bunch of rascist pathetic morons the Irish really are. We want to be accepted across the world, but we won't accept others into our country.

Until we change the way Irish is taught, and our sentiments and thoughts on other societies, how can we ever hope to develop our own culture?

SoupyNorman

Being Oirish is:

Working for a large multi-national that repatriates it's profits.
Supporting British soccer teams.
Shopping at Aldi but packing your groceries in the Dunnes Reusable bags.


The above are not criticisms, just facts.

palaver

sorry, wrong thread...

seraphimvc

the 'problem' of the whole irish culture is,they dont care about 99% of everything

the 1% is alcohol

FutureTaoiseach

What we fear is a return to the oppression of the past, in terms of domination by the Big States. You only have to look around the world to see what happens to oppressed captive nations like the Kurds, Chechens, Ingush and Uighurs to appreciate how lucky we are in this country. Lisbon reminds me of the 21 Point Plan presented by Mao Zedong to the Dalai Llama effectively handing control of Tibet to China on pain of invasion. I believe that a no vote may encourage our political elites to focus more on solving domestic problems instead of swanning off on foreign-junkets as an excuse to neglect the health-service, crime and other problems afflicting our society.

We also fear (and I know it's not PC to say this) another large influx of cheap labour and the displacement of Irish workers and driving down of pay and conditions. This is not the fault of the immigrants - I do not blame them. I blame the politicians. Article 15.1 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights forces us to allow asylum-seekers to work, while Article 19(1) bans "collective expulsions". The UK has an optout from the Charter, meaning that Ireland and Malta would be the only English-speaking countries to allow asylum-seekers to work. As such, many tens of thousands of illegals resident in the UK could be expected to travel to Ireland if we vote yes. With 420,000 Irish unemployed, it is unfair to kick them when they are down by importing more cheap-labour for FF's builder buddies. After Spain voted yes, unemployment doubled to 18%.

We also fear harmonised taxes. Article 269 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union as amended by Lisbon allows the European Council to impose "own resourcing" of the EU - a clear reference to EU-taxes. The 'assurances' are worthless because they are not attached to the Treaty.

Article 269 TFEU wrote:

The Union shall provide itself with the means necessary to attain its objectives and carry through its policies. The Council, acting in accordance with a special legislative procedure, shall unanimously and after consulting the European Parliament adopt a decision laying down the provisions relating to the system of own resources of the Union. In this context it may establish new categories of own resources or abolish an existing category.

Jim236

FutureTaoiseach we're not debating the treaty, we're talking about what it means to be Irish, so relax the cacks a bit.

Anyway seen as no one else has said it I may as well - to be Irish is to not be British. Ultimately that is the basis of Irish nationalism. Michael Collins once said if Britain had been a republic, Ireland would've become a monarchy. Irish people just have a desire to be different from the British, but more importantly to be seen to be different from Britain. Its always said the easiest way to offend an Irish person is call them British and call Ireland the British Isles. Its not just the 800 years history that makes it offensive, its because we want to be seen as being different.

And people go on about how much they hate the Irish language, but its these same people that don't realise that our whole identity, our whole culture is based off the Irish language, thats what makes us different from Britain and without it we'd just be the same as them. Someone mentioned the Pádraig Pearse quote earlier "tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" (a country without a language is a country without a soul), and its true. Doesn't matter what it is, the GAA, road signs, placenames, even our dialect of English, its all based off the Irish language and thats what makes us different, and ultimately what makes up our culture & identity.

livingtargets

"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world."
-Socrates

Really,it`s just geography.I had to be born somewhere.

But that doesn`t mean that I don`t feel priviliged to live here.I feel priviliged
to walk on the same soil as people like Frank Ryan and Jim Larkin.

Just as I feel priviliged to live in a country where I`m safe to speak my mind and have a roof over my head.Also I feel priviliged to experience this countries culture nearly every day.

But I`m not "proud" of my nationality.I`ve done nothing to earn it.