2 Reasons to vote NO

meglome

K-9 wrote: »

Interesting that protocols, guarantees and promises have never been broken by the EU.

That's what I find really interesting. For all the bull from the No side the reality is the EU have never once gone back on these arrangements. I mean the sky could fall down tomorrow but it never has so why would we constantly go on that it will, without any reason to be concerned.

Mother says

K-9 wrote: »

Nothing to do with abortions, we have guarantees on Taxation and Workers Rights. The guarantees are on the main page of this very forum, in clear, decipherable language.

First guarantee:

Quote:
SECTION A: RIGHT TO LIFE, FAMILY AND EDUCATION
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

Hmm, yes, it is very interesting isn't it?

K-9

meglome wrote: »

That's what I find really interesting. For all the bull from the No side the reality is the EU have never once gone back on these arrangements. I mean the sky could fall down tomorrow but it never has so why would we constantly go on that it will, without any reason to be concerned.

The sky will fall in, at some time. It has never happened before, but it will in the EU.

Quotes Neville Chamberlain...................*

*There was no EU then.

K-9

Mother says wrote: »

First guarantee:

Quote:
SECTION A: RIGHT TO LIFE, FAMILY AND EDUCATION
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

Hmm, yes, it is very interesting isn't it?

YEP it is.

Are you familiar with our Constitution, boring and all as it is?

nesf

Mother says wrote: »

First guarantee:

Quote:
SECTION A: RIGHT TO LIFE, FAMILY AND EDUCATION
Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon attributing legal status to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, or in the provisions of that Treaty in the area of Freedom, Security and Justice affects in any way the scope and applicability of the protection of the right to life in Article 40.3.1, 40.3.2 and 40.3.3, the protection of the family in Article 41 and the protection of the rights in respect of education in Articles 42 and 44.2.4 and 44.2.5 provided by the Constitution of Ireland.

Hmm, yes, it is very interesting isn't it?

Interesting? No, it's about as interesting as getting root canal work done. Clear and concise? Yes, it's fairly unambiguous that the EU has no interfering with Ireland's own stance on abortion.

Mother says

Scofflaw wrote: »

We need this Treaty after Nice - that's we, the ordinary people. It's a counter-balance to Nice, and reduces the democratic deficit.

And did you vote against Nice the first or the second time we had a referendum on it?

K-9

Don't know why I'm even bothering. This forum could answer every concern of Mother says and she'll still vote No.

The very fact we answer her questions will mean she/he'll get offended at the higher than though attitude of YES Voters/Boards.ie Mods/Admins/EU Media.

Blame everything else except I was wrong! LOL

Mother says

K-9 wrote: »

Are you familiar with our Constitution, boring and all as it is?

Yeah, it's great, I read it all the time.

K-9

Mother says wrote: »

Yeah, it's great, I read it all the time.

So you should know No Abortion is guaranteed beyond a joke at this stage?

I can dig out a PDF on the Constitution if you want. No bothers.

Mother says

Seriously, you need to start reading posts before you comment on them.

My original post was about how it is mad that they went to the effort of making guarantees about the fact that there is nothing in the treaty about abortion.

You then posted 'Nothing to do with abortions'. I assumed you meant that the guarntees had 'nothing to do with abortion' because i though you actually read my comment and understood that I KNOW THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT ABORTION IN THE LISBON TREATY. That is why I pointed out the contents of the first guarantee.

However I must commend you on your ability to transmit smugness across the internet, it is breathtaking.

K-9

Mother says wrote: »

Seriously, you need to start reading posts before you comment on them.

My original post was about how it is mad that they went to the effort of making guarantees about the fact that there is nothing in the treaty about abortion.

You then posted 'Nothing to do with abortions'. I assumed you meant that the guarntees had 'nothing to do with abortion' because i though you actually read my comment and understood that I KNOW THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT ABORTION IN THE LISBON TREATY. That is why I pointed out the contents of the first guarantee.

However I must commend you on your ability to transmit smugness across the internet, it is breathtaking.

In fairness, your posts are very general.

OK, there are new guarantees on taxation and solemn declarations on workers rights and the Commissioner.

You don't really accept the EU's track record and history.

The EU's history will be wiped out by the history of Europe from the last 200 years?

The history of the last 65 years means little?

civildefence

Anything this government tell you to do, do the opposite and everything will be just fine

Scofflaw

Mother says wrote: »

And did you vote against Nice the first or the second time we had a referendum on it?

No the first time, yes the second. It was either that or let the Eastern European states fall back into Russian orbit, which didn't seem like a good idea.

cordially,
Scofflaw

civildefence

Scofflaw wrote: »

No the first time, yes the second. It was either that or let the Eastern European states fall back into Russian orbit, which didn't seem like a good idea.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I voted no to Nice on both occasions. Personally Ireland's interests are what i have at heart, not Eastern Europe's.

the_dark_side

This planet will not be here in another 1.5 million years... I rest my case

Scofflaw

civildefence wrote: »

I voted no to Nice on both occasions. Personally Ireland's interests are what i have at heart, not Eastern Europe's.

It's just possible that we define those interests differently.

amused,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

the_dark_side wrote: »

This planet will not be here in another 1.5 million years... I rest my case

Five billion, last time I looked, and it appears that even the Sun turning into a red giant doesn't guarantee Earth's destruction.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Mother says

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness, your posts are very general.

MY post are general? This seems bit of a contradiction considering what follows.

K-9 wrote: »

OK, there are new guarantees on taxation and solemn declarations on workers rights and the Commissioner.

Why are you telling me this? What is its relevance? What is its context?

K-9 wrote: »

You don't really accept the EU's track record and history.

Thanks for telling me these facts about myself. What is this information based upon? What is its relevance?

K-9 wrote: »

The EU's history will be wiped out by the history of Europe from the last 200 years?

Is this a question or a statement? What does it mean? What has it got to do with me? Is it a reference to my earlier post?

K-9 wrote: »

The history of the last 65 years means little?

Again, is this a question or a statement? What does it mean? What is it in reference to?

I would guess that you are positing some inferences about my earlier post where I said:

I think what is happening is that Ireland is getting exposed to a level of politicking that has been the norm in central Europe for two hundred years but we have never seen.

All i meant by this comment is that in Central Europe they have a long history of intense political activity. As such their political interactions are highly nuanced. I was simply noting that i found it humorous how they were being stumped by the interaction of our political naiveté with their political grandeur.

I never said or implied that this history somehow wipes out the history of the EU. Equally I never implied that the birth of the EU somehow erased everything that came before it. I simply assumed that there was continuity in the political tradition from before the EU until now.

In historical terms the EU has no history. The very thing we are debating illustrates that. The EU is still very much in gestation. We still dont know what to call the EU. Is it an economic community? Is it a superstate? In its short history it has been constantly changing so in a sense it has no track record. How would you determine when the record starts? From Benelux? From the EEC? After Lisbon passes?

K-9

Mother says wrote:

Lol, its gas isn't it? Fianna Fail waiving the assurances around like they're some kind of re-write of the treaty when all they really are is a letter from Barroso and co saying 'Eh, yeah, don't worry. None of that stuff is in there.'

I think what is happening is that Ireland is getting exposed to a level of politicking that has been the norm in central Europe for two hundred years but we have never seen.

They must think we are mad. I'm sure their main worries with most countries passing Lisbon is the consolidation of power. Then we reject it because we think they want to give us abortions. In a way they're victims of their own success. By making it so vague and undecipherable it's quite easy to read anything into it and very hard to dispel any claims made about it.

Grand, think I'll come back to this tomorrow, it's too late!