Does this seem off to you?

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

I think you've let yourself down Fratton Fred. I really do. I'm sorry you couldn't rise above the level of delivering petty insults. It's probably best you don't read my responses if it brings you to this level of antagonism.

accusing someone of posting "Sentimental Mush" is pretty insulting TBH.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Can we keep it a little more peaceable in here? FrattonFred, if you don't know that doomedtofail actually lives at home with his/her parents, please don't come out with that kind of thing.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Noted. See above.

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

There's no way of telling what percentage of that 80,000 or indeed the approx 500,000 total are deemed to be 'highly skilled'...

Indeed we do not. But in the event that there are a significant number of skilled individuals in this country who are currently unemployed (which seems likely), it would be incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion, to turf them out of the country (or did you have another course of action in mind?) in order to balance the books, regardless of their nationality.

I'd also add that it is not absolutely necessary for an individual to possess a third-level qualification (or any other qualification) in order for them to be capable of making a positive contribution to the economy.

doomedtofail wrote: »

What relevance does it have where they come from?

None whatsoever, but you're the one focusing on the contingent of the unemployed population who hail from beyond our borders.

doomedtofail wrote: »

We all know how non-discriminatory the axe has fallen this past year on both native and migrant alike, but I still would be quite confident that statistically the majority of those 80,000 will possess a 'skillset' for which this economy will have very little use for for some time to come.

And the question of what you want to do about it still remains unanswered.

Let's not forget about the 360,000-odd Irish nationals on the live register – what do you want to do about that (presumably useless, to extend your logic) lot?

doomedtofail

djpbarry wrote: »

Indeed we do not. But in the event that there are a significant number of skilled individuals in this country who are currently unemployed (which seems likely), it would be incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion, to turf them out of the country (or did you have another course of action in mind?) in order to balance the books, regardless of their nationality.

Where on earth did I suggest we "turf", as you so eloquently put it, anybody out of the country?

djpbarry wrote: »

I'd also add that it is not absolutely necessary for an individual to possess a third-level qualification (or any other qualification) in order for them to be capable of making a positive contribution to the economy.

Who would suggest otherwise? Have you attended Fred Fratton's School of "Statin' the Bleedin' Obvious" Thought? I merely stated that "statistically the majority of those 80,000 will possess a 'skillset' for which this economy will have very little use for for some time to come".

djpbarry wrote: »

None whatsoever, but you're the one focusing on the contingent of the unemployed population who hail from beyond our borders.

Yes indeed in the context in which Fratton Fred originally made the point; it doesn't matter where they are from in the EU. Obviously non-EU is an entirely different argument.

djpbarry wrote: »

Let's not forget about the 360,000-odd Irish nationals on the live register – what do you want to do about that (presumably useless, to extend your logic) lot?

Presuming something as an element of logical conclusion?...isn't that an example of what they call an oxymoron?

Enlighten me...

djpbarry

doomedtofail wrote: »

Where on earth did I suggest we "turf", as you so eloquently put it, anybody out of the country?

You didn’t. In fact, you’ve suggested precious little, which leaves this thread looking just like any other in the “De forenerz iz taken ar’ jobz/benefitz” category.

So I’ll ask again; what do you want to do about it?

doomedtofail

djpbarry wrote: »

You didn’t.

Ahh to err is human, to forgive is divine. Let this be the last time I have to make you admit you were wrong publicly.

djpbarry wrote: »

In fact, you’ve suggested precious little, which leaves this thread looking just like any other in the “De forenerz iz taken ar’ jobz/benefitz” category.
So I’ll ask again; what do you want to do about it?

I wasn't sure if you were in the least bit interested in what I had to say but instead would rather presume logical conclusions (whatever that means in your lexicon) or fall back on any of the following responses from the jaded liberal canon

* Da tuk aar jaaabbbss
* I don't know how to engage in debate so I'm just going to label you a racist
* You're just an anti-immigrant ranter
* Go back to Stormfront/Daily Mail etc.
* The Irish travelled to Australia, US, UK etc. why shouldn't we reciprocate?
* What about concentrating on all the Irish layabouts first?

God stick up for yourself man. This at best makes you look tired of ideas and at worst a resuscitator of hackneyed rhetoric. In the few posts there have been on this thread I've been on the receiving end of some of the above. How can we expect to have an honest debate on this issue if people by default resort to slinging a series of bumbling catechisms at the first chance they get?

I began this thread with a question not with an answer. Personally, the words 'horse' and 'bolted' come to mind, although that would be expected you may think from someone of my disposition.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - someone with over 4000 posts on this forum should have something incisive to say on this topic (or any other I would hope). All those threads, posts, debates and points scored should have rubbed off on you by now. So bask us in your infinite wisdom...what exactly do you suggest?

Or maybe someone here from the liberal agenda can explain to me in concise terms why our inept government has issued a staggering amount of PPS numbers since Jan 1st 2009 to non-EEA citizens when we already have a devastating number of persons on the Live Register?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx

In black and white terms you should be able to grasp - every 1,000 people added to the dole queue costs the State another €21 million. If the current trends hold up then we will have close to 100,000 immigrants by the end of the year to maintain at Public Expense. Unsustainable folly of the highest extreme.

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment - someone with over 4000 posts on this forum should have something incisive to say on this topic (or any other I would hope). All those threads, posts, debates and points scored should have rubbed off on you by now. So bask us in your infinite wisdom...what exactly do you suggest?

The problem is, immigration has been discussed about ten thousand times onthis forum and is usually instigated very much in a "chuck out the immigrants and everything would be alright" sort of way and usually ends up with the OP proclaiming that they have had enough of the way immigrants are given free cars, houses, horses etc and announcing they are off to Australia.

Ireland became a modern, cosmopolitan country and welcomed in immigrants, as most modern wealthy countries do, but you can't have it both ways, there was a labour shortage now there is a job shortage which came about very quickly. Immigrants came to Ireland and a lot have lost their jobs and have claimed unemployment benefit of one sort or another. That is a fact of life I'm afraid and you can't expect them to clear off straight away.

Maybe, rather than getting upset with people who disagree with you, you offer some sort of way forward on the subject.

AlekSmart

Ireland became a modern, cosmopolitan country and welcomed in immigrants, as most modern wealthy countries do, but you can't have it both ways, there was a labour shortage now there is a job shortage which came about very quickly. Immigrants came to Ireland and a lot have lost their jobs and have claimed unemployment benefit of one sort or another. That is a fact of life I'm afraid and you can't expect them to clear off straight away.

I can appreciate where Fratton Fred is coming from here,however I shy away from that opening remark.

I think it`s fair to speculate that Modern and Cosmopolitan are two things Ireland did NOT take on board from our brush with the European millieu and the welcome for immigrants could well be said to have been muted.

Whilst I would most certainly kick Irish ass concerning the refusal to embrace those initial and essentially euro-defining values I would be far less critical of the lack of welcome for immigrants.

Sadly,the lack of "welcome" is essentially a Human Nature trait and is present wherever mankind walks the soil.

The major reason why it does not present such a threat in other societies is largely geographic in nature,ie: space to dissemenate and then slowly,oh so slowly assimilate.

Given our Island status and location this was always going to be a difficult one for us.

What did`nt help was the traditional Irish lack-of-a-plan in relation to Immigration vs employment opportunities and ability to cater for the newcomers.

In Immigration,as in Finance,Transport,Energy,Healthcare, we simply winged it in the hope that a) It would simply sort itself out and b) If it did go wrong we would have somebody else (The Brits ?) to blame.

This attitude,which became (and still is) official Government policy cannot be laid solely at the feet of half-witted Politicians but reflects directly back on a nation of disinterested lazy good-timers who even now cling to a forlorn hope of "something coming along".

We repeatedly have to return to our lack of interest in the serious matter of political representation and the Godawful turnouts in Local and National elections since the foundation of the Irish State.

We are a culture which has always demanded firm guidance with little tolerance for deviation and boy,never have we needed it more than NOW !

Our only problem today is that we have eaten all our young,drank all of our golden mead,burnt all of our turf and tainted all of our water in some forlorn attempt to prove our wild-Irish-Rover status,leaving us a worthless hulk adrift on the European sea issuing our mayday call and hoping for a salvage tug to haul us into safe-harbour.

The blame my friends lies with US.

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The problem is, immigration has been discussed about ten thousand times onthis forum and is usually instigated very much in a "chuck out the immigrants and everything would be alright" sort of way and usually ends up with the OP proclaiming that they have had enough of the way immigrants are given free cars, houses, horses etc and announcing they are off to Australia.

Well no Fred the problem for me, generally speaking, is liberal bigotry that is only too quick to force an agenda down people's throats.

On the face of it, people (myself included) do not oppose mass immigration on the grounds of race etc., though they do oppose it on the grounds of sound economics; something I wanted to highlight when I began this thread. Immigration can be a wonderful thing but, on the flip side, a disaster when it is not managed properly and that is something we can clearly see today.

I have not once suggested on this thread that anybody should be "turfed" out or "expect them to clear off straight away" so I do wish you and others would stop suggesting that. It's getting quite tedious and merely shows that you haven't grasped my point at hand:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Scofflaw

I see I've already issued a handbag warning in this thread. This time, I'd like to point out to doomedtofail that ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry" will rapidly render your username ironic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Fratton Fred

I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being a Liberal, let alone a liberal bigot

A country needs immigration, just like a company needs a certain level of staff turnover. New blood, new ideas and plugging gaps in the skill base etc, so stopping immigration is not wise.

You may criticise the governments immigration policy, but Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards cheap labour so the cheap foreign workers helped keep ireland competitive and keep inflation under control.

To be honest, if you really want to criticise a government policy that has contributed to mass immigration and high unemployment, blame the rediculously high minimum wage here compared to the rest of europe.

doomedtofail

Scofflaw wrote: »

I see I've already issued a handbag warning in this thread. This time, I'd like to point out to doomedtofail that ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry" will rapidly render your username ironic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

lol...nice touch...duly noted

doomedtofail

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't think anyone has ever accused me of being a Liberal, let alone a liberal bigot

Sigh...read my post again. As Scofflaw so succinctly pointed out correctly - "ridiculing everyone else's position as "liberal bigotry"..." proves yet again you've got it wrong - I didn't refer to you as a liberal, let alone a liberal bigot.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A country needs immigration, just like a company needs a certain level of staff turnover. New blood, new ideas and plugging gaps in the skill base etc, so stopping immigration is not wise.

No but controlling immigration is generally considered to be

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You may criticise the governments immigration policy, but Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards cheap labour so the cheap foreign workers helped keep ireland competitive and keep inflation under control.

I can only assume you've mixed yourself up here and meant to say "Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards labour so the cheap foreign workers..."

I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate here Fred. Ireland's net exports continued to fall, indicating a lack in competitiveness while we were concentrating over the past decade in importing foreign persons to build houses for other foreign persons, thereby getting rich off selling these eyesores to one another and not from our competitiveness on the world stage.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1016674.shtml

Fratton Fred wrote: »

To be honest, if you really want to criticise a government policy that has contributed to mass immigration and high unemployment, blame the rediculously high minimum wage here compared to the rest of europe.

Lower the minimum wage and you lower the chances of enticing people off the social welfare. This digression is not what I wished to discuss when I originally created this thread. While we're awaiting djpbarry's response, should it ever arise, perhaps you could field your thoughts on the points raised above:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Fratton Fred

doomedtofail wrote: »

I can only assume you've mixed yourself up here and meant to say "Ireland has/had a massively spiralling cost base, especially with regards labour so the cheap foreign workers..."

No cheap labour. Ireland had it in abundance, but no longer. To be competitive, a country needs cheap labour.

doomedtofail wrote: »

I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate here Fred. Ireland's net exports continued to fall, indicating a lack in competitiveness while we were concentrating over the past decade in importing foreign persons to build houses for other foreign persons, thereby getting rich off selling these eyesores to one another and not from our competitiveness on the world stage.

absolutely correct. Where Ireland ****ed up big time was that the cheap labour was building obsolete property with an ever inceasing value, thereby making Ireland look a lot wealthier than it actually was.

doomedtofail wrote: »

lower the minimum wage and you lower the chances of enticing people off the social welfare. This digression is not what I wished to discuss when I originally created this thread. While we're awaiting djpbarry's response, should it ever arise, perhaps you could field your thoughts on the points raised above:

1) The economic benefit of mass-immigration to this country over the long term is severely suspect
2) 80,000 immigrants are already on the dole. Another approx. 34,000 have arrived since 1 January. The incompetence of the FF partnership doesn't have the courage to stem the inward unsustainable tide when almost every other EU country has done so.

Personally i would lower the Social Welfare as well.

The economic benefit of Immigration was suspect, for the reason I quote above. it helped create and fuel the property bubble. All the time the property bubble was expanding, people were building more houses, attracting more immigrants and increasing the demand for property. it was a self fulfilling event. The **** up came not with controlling immigration, but by badly managing the property bubble. In the meantime, minimum wage was constantly going up so irish people could afford to buy these properties (and ensure voes for FF) and rent them out to more immigrants. This just had the net effect of Dell, Intel and all the other Multinationals suddenly deciding Ireland was too expensive.

Yes, there are 80,000 immigrants on the dole (I was one for three months last year and believe me, it ain't fun) but that is now just a fact of life. most of the economic migrants, the ones who came over for 12 months to mix plaster, have gone, the ones that are left are the ones that came over with family and have bought a house. They aren't going anywhere in a hurry and rather than moaning about it, Ireland needs to accept it as one of hte nagovers of the celtic Tiger.

immigration will slow down now though because there isn't any work here anymore and countries like Poland are the new tiger economies.

doomedtofail

Well said Sir...

davidr10

Fratton Fred
Agree, but 50% of the public sector to f off to oz, Think the Australian Government may have a problem with that amount of spent meat turning up at their door. Could we not have the cull here. Do we have to ship all our waste abroad. Think of the carbon footprint.