lisbon treaty

wfman

what way will you vote?
very close in waterford last time with 54% voting no.

The_Thing

Will most definitely be voting NO.

Irish sovereignty is being gradually eroded, if we don't put a stop to it we will one day find ourselves members of the United States Of Europe ruled by a federal government in Brussels.

The Irish people have already said NO. It is an insult to us as a nation to hold a second referendum because the Eurocrats didn't like the result first time around.

If we as a nation were truly valued in Europe our previous decision on Lisbon would have been accepted as being the will of the Irish people.

If Lisbon had been passed the first time do you think we would be allowed to vote on it again?

We should vote NO to show them that we will not be bullied, ever.

deise48

just wondering your profession are you a farmer or a fisherman by any chance????????

The_Thing

just wondering your profession are you a farmer or a fisherman by any chance????????

No, deise48, I am not a farmer nor a fisherman. Are you?

Paddy@CIRL

Voted Yes the first time, voting Yes again. I've read the facts and made up my own mind, I'd encourage others to the same.

The amount of lies and propaganda from the No campaign this time around in particular is sickening.

wfman

ryanair boss michael o leary is prepared to back the yes vote to the tune of 500,000euro .when i saw him backing the yes vote i decided ill be voting no!

wfman

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Voted Yes the first time, voting Yes again. I've read the facts and made up my own mind, I'd encourage others to the same.

The amount of lies and propaganda from the No campaign this time around in particular is sickening.

what lies?

Paddy@CIRL

From the top of my head, the recent COIR material said that Lisbon will make the Irish constitution irrelevant, that all our wages will fall to €1.84 etc. etc.

I'm not interested in arguing, I've already made up my mind, I'm not going to force others to make up their's.

hudsonriver

wfman wrote: »

ryanair boss michael o leary is prepared to back the yes vote to the tune of 500,000euro .when i saw him backing the yes vote i decided ill be voting no!

I really hope your joking!

And in relation to the thing, its not exactly the same thing we are voting on, I hope its not a case of vote No once, vote it again without reconsidering the changes.

The_Thing

If we make the mistake of voting YES this time around it will let those in Brussels see that we can be bullied into submission whenever it suits them.

wfman

hudsonriver wrote: »

I really hope your joking!

And in relation to the thing, its not exactly the same thing we are voting on, I hope its not a case of vote No once, vote it again without reconsidering the changes.

the only real change is that every country gets to keep a commissioner but there are no guarantees on this beyond 2014 when it can be changed.

Grissom

hudsonriver wrote: »

I really hope your joking!

And in relation to the thing, its not exactly the same thing we are voting on, I hope its not a case of vote No once, vote it again without reconsidering the changes.

Changes........what changes. The treaty is exactly the same treaty that the Irish peolple democratically rejected last year. Not a single word is different.

If the `changes`you mention referr to the `guarantees` obtained by the Government, please bear in mind that the `guarantees`are not legally binding but are only promesis that they will be included in a Treaty at some unknown future date.

JohnC.

wfman wrote: »

ryanair boss michael o leary is prepared to back the yes vote to the tune of 500,000euro .when i saw him backing the yes vote i decided ill be voting no!

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to make a decision on. You are supposed to be voting on the treaty, not voting depending on who else is voting what way. What an utter waste of your responsibility.

Bards

I'm voting No, because the Irish people voted NO in a democratic referendum the first time round. I am not going to be bullied into voting yes by a political class that give the voters two fingers every time a decision is arrived at that they don't like.

This Bull-crap about giving the Irish people a second chance to change their mind? what a load of ****

ziedth

I honestly think now is not the time to be pissing off the EU, ideallistic dreams of "we voted no already" and "We'll be a dominion of the EU" aside we are a free market economy that is going to have to rely on forigen trade in the coming years and IMO the last thing we need to do is pretty much piss off the majority of people we trade with.

I didn't vote last time because basically I was only told infomation from the yes campaign and No Campaign and there was no impartial advice apart from reading the bloody thing.

That being said the Nial in the NO coffin for me was that IMO again they are obviously really stretching for a case when the start using this obvious scaremongering shíte that that all our wages will fall to €1.84.

JohnC.

Bards wrote: »

I'm voting No, because the Irish people voted NO in a democratic referendum the first time round. I am not going to be bullied into voting yes by a political class that give the voters two fingers every time a decision is arrived at that they don't like.

This Bull-crap about giving the Irish people a second chance to change their mind? what a load of ****

Yet this kind of thing is welcomed with stuff such as divorce.

wfman

Kahless wrote: »

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to make a decision on. You are supposed to be voting on the treaty, not voting depending on who else is voting what way. What an utter waste of your responsibility.

kahless i voted no last time.i looked at both sides and decided it was better for ireland to reject the treaty.i voted the same way as the MAJORITY of the country.if the treaty was carried id have accepted a DEMACRATIC decision.the goverment has been proved as liars in my opinion,the said it was vote yes or bust.that wasnt the case as we find ourselfs voting on the same treaty again.
my decision was already made before michael o leary got behind the yes campaign.it was a tounge and cheek remark by me that someone like michael o leary is pushing for this then theres very much something in it for him.
i suppose you made up your mind how you'll vote by reading the entire treaty?

Sully

I am no fan of our current government but I can see why they are re-running the Lisbon. The government assumed last time that the people would just trust their word and not actually be bothered enough to read up on the treaty. The No side took advantage of this and made up complete bull**** and lies causing more people to say "Well, I have my doubts now. I dont understand the treaty, nobody has fully informed me on its pros and cons and I dont trust the governments word" so they voted no. Plus, they voted no in anger at the government in general.

The government got these legal guarntees - which I cant decide if they are worthless or not and also decided to do a better campaign. Now, more people and groups are explaining what Lisbon is, its advantages, how it will impact us and also responds to the comments made by the No side. So they are now actually properly informing the citizens what Lisbon is about.

So, this time we go to the polls actually knowing more about the treaty and making an informed decession based on that and on that only. Europe is very important for Ireland and any treaty should not be voted down as an "anti-government" or "I am saying no for democracy!" ****e. It should be voted either Yes or No PURELY based on what Lisbon REALLY is. Not what it *might* be or what the shinners, who knock every treaty, and other lunies say it is. That min. wage poster - its a question. Its not actually a fact. Its just another item the no side decided to throw out there and cast doubt upon the electorate - "Hrm... Lisbon may reduce or wages... or they may not. Best vote no, just in case". For god sake, the poster was designed in such a way to cast doubt without any basis on whether or not it could even happy. Most of the No side stuff lately is anti-europe and not anti-lisbon treaty.

People should be voting purely on what the treaty is. You should read up on the treaty, compare sides and make an informed choice when going to the polls in October. You should not listen to lies, you should not vote no because you hate the government, and you should not vote no simply because the democracy of voting "No" the first time was ignored. Same applies for voting no because X said to Yes. Vote ONLY on what Lisbon IS and ignore the outside crap.

(A recent court case suggests its not even unconstitutional for the re-run and its not ignoring democracy by asking people twice since they have explained Lisbon this time and are asking people to re-consider and not forcing a "Yes" on them).

nkay1985

Bards wrote: »

I'm voting No, because the Irish people voted NO in a democratic referendum the first time round. I am not going to be bullied into voting yes by a political class that give the voters two fingers every time a decision is arrived at that they don't like.

This Bull-crap about giving the Irish people a second chance to change their mind? what a load of ****

Regardless of how I voted last time, I think this is a disgrace and it will make me vote No. It was decided in a democratic election to vote No last time out but they didn't like the answer they got, so they run the vote again.

That line you're spouting about it being explained this time just does not fly Sully. Do you know why? Because the exact same thing happened with the Nice treaty. They ran the Yes campaign and lost. So they decided "No we didn't explain it correctly, let's do this again". The Yes vote won the second time around. So how can they justify it this time?

If the Yes side won on either of these occasions, what would have happened if the No side came out and said "No we didn't explain it correctly, let's do this again"?

It's basically another exampleof the government and other major parties not respecting the will of the Irish people and I think it's disgraceful.

Kahless wrote: »

Yet this kind of thing is welcomed with stuff such as divorce.

What was the time difference between successive divorce referendums?

wfman

divorce was 1986 and 1995

nkay1985

wfman wrote: »

divorce was 1986 and 1995

My point exactly. I've no problem with being asked to vote again on things when there's a new pool of voters but a couple of months in the difference is just ignoring the people.

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

Regardless of how I voted last time, I think this is a disgrace and it will make me vote No. It was decided in a democratic election to vote No last time out but they didn't like the answer they got, so they run the vote again.

That line you're spouting about it being explained this time just does not fly Sully. Do you know why? Because the exact same thing happened with the Nice treaty. They ran the Yes campaign and lost. So they decided "No we didn't explain it correctly, let's do this again". The Yes vote won the second time around. So how can they justify it this time?

If the Yes side won on either of these occasions, what would have happened if the No side came out and said "No we didn't explain it correctly, let's do this again"?

It's basically another exampleof the government and other major parties not respecting the will of the Irish people and I think it's disgraceful.

What was the time difference between successive divorce referendums?

If the Irish people were that annoyed, or believed either treaty was bad for Ireland, they would have voted no a second time. That is the beauty of democracy - if you are still unhappy, vote no. Keep saying no until something is done thats better.

The government did not force anybody to change their minds. The people changed their minds by themselves.

I dont recall the previous treaty very well, but Lisbon I was a complete shambles in how it was sold to the people from both the Yes side and the No side. It was also used as a vote against the government.

cassette50

I'll be voting no (again).

It's just another small step towards a United Europe in the long term.

Sully

cassette50 wrote: »

I'll be voting no (again).

It's just another small step towards a United Europe in the long term.

Out of curiosity, what aspects of the treaty concern you or make you think that a "United Europe" is on its way?

cassette50

Sully wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what aspects of the treaty concern you or make you think that a "United Europe" is on its way?

There is nothing that really that stands out. I've read a summary of the treaty. I realise it mostly just to do with the streamlining the administrative side of things and making Europe more flexible.

With the introduction of majority voting in some areas, Ireland will lose a lot of it's power and influence (as they could previously veto agreements until a favourable deal was proposed. Now there influence will be somewhat diminished (rightly or wrongly). Ireland will suffer as a result.

I just see this as one small step on the road towards a United Europe (in the long term).

Johnnnybravo

Be Voting NO again!

ec18

What's wrong with a United Europe? You'd prefer our current government?

People voted no the last time based on a campaign of mis information and scaremongering by libertas. With everyone giving out about the EU, the celtic tiger would never have happened. Since Ireland joined the EU in 1973 we have received billions in funding for infrastructure and other projects.

To complain about Europe and listen to No side is complete stupidity and just being ignorant of what is needed to move forward as a growing society and to help with economic recovery. You're lack of reasons for voting no again are well just seem like you haven't thought about it and are just going with the I voted no last time lets do that again.

Voting No last time is not an excuse for voting no again. Either is being asked to vote about it again as a valid reason for voting No. Being angry with the government is not a reason either.

Bards

I belive in democracy I.E one country 1 Vote.

If Lisbon is passed then Germany France & Italy can more or less get anything they want through the European Parliment via majority voting rules. The small Nations like Ireland will be at a disadvantage.

irish fighter

I voted no the last time out and so did my wife and we both will vote yes this time round. Why because we know more about it this time and we think its right for ireland to move with the EU and not away. Lets look at all the jobs gone in waterford and ireland what will happen if we turn our backs on the EU ?
Do we want to be OUT on our own think people before you vote no again
it might turn out bad for us this time

lugha

Bards wrote: »

I belive in democracy I.E one country 1 Vote.

Interesting view of democracy. Most people would say one person, one vote. Ireland's say in the running of the EU is and will remain far greater than our miniscule population merits.

Bards wrote: »

If Lisbon is passed then Germany France & Italy can more or less get anything they want through the European Parliment via majority voting rules. The small Nations like Ireland will be at a disadvantage.

No they won't. Lisbon specifically includes a rule specifying that there must be at least four countries (regardless of population) oppose to a particular measure before they can block it under QMV. But even if they could, would this not just be democracy in action? Do you favor democracy or not?

lugha

nkay1985 wrote: »

My point exactly. I've no problem with being asked to vote again on things when there's a new pool of voters but a couple of months in the difference is just ignoring the people.

I don't think this amounts to ignoring the people. But not a jot does it matter what I say. As has been pointed out, an Irish court ruled specifically on this matter and found more or less that it was in fact democracy working very well. There is this semi-myth prevailing that if the government keep returning to the people with the same question (although Lisbon II is NOT the same, contrary to a claim made in an earlier post, the guarantees or protocols negotiated by the government are in fact legally binding) they might eventually give you the answer you want. Poppy cock. Lisbon II will not be passed unless the majority of those voting on the day back it. Simple as. How can anyone credibly clam that that is undemocratic?