lisbon treaty

Nehaxak

caseyann wrote: »

They are trying to use scare mongering to make Irish vote yes.

I can't believe this, you just peddled your religious view on another forum (CT) - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62171363&postcount=1 that Ireland would be hit by an Earthquake and that there would be no saving us if we vote yes. Who is doing the scaremongering again ?

Johnnnybravo

Nehaxak wrote: »

I can't believe this, you just peddled your religious view on another forum (CT) - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62171363&postcount=1 that Ireland would be hit by an Earthquake and that there would be no saving us if we vote yes. Who is doing the scaremongering again ?

Did they not state a french nun predicted it?? To be honest it was quite long so I only read the last line but it didnt look as though the poster was saying it would happen, just looked as though they put it in at the end and said a nun predicted it. Didnt see scaremongering to it.

Nehaxak

Johnnnybravo wrote: »

Did they not state a french nun predicted it?? To be honest it was quite long so I only read the last line but it didnt look as though the poster was saying it would happen, just looked as though they put it in at the end and said a nun predicted it. Didnt see scaremongering to it.

Yes and conveniently the French nun of course can't be found anywhere.

There is a french nun who has predicted for the Lisbon treaty aswell,if Ireland votes No we will lead Europe and be saved,if we vote yes there will be a Huge earth quake under Ireland and there is no saving us.

Anyone know who the french nun is i cant find her anywhere.

Johnnnybravo

Nehaxak wrote: »

Yes and conveniently the French nun of course can't be found anywhere.

lol who cares. Maybe they did make it up, its the net, I wouldnt believe everything you read

JohnC.

caseyann wrote: »

Nothing to do with voting no.

Exactly. Just like the Spanish unemployment is nothing to do with the treaty.

jmcc

Sully wrote: »

The main opposition wants a Yes vote though.

And f*ck them too! If these morons won't respect my vote then why should I respect anything they have to say? I consider most politicians to be intellectual midgets anyway - look at Coughlan for example.

I personally think its a bit sad if people wont leave their anger for FF to the elections (it would be great) and consider why the people voted No and accept that the government and EU folks have taken this into consideration when going back with a new vote.

The Lisbon Treaty has not been altered. The "legally binding guarantees" are worthless when major powers are delegated to Brussels. It is just a Home Rule bill but with Brussels pulling the strings instead of London.

Democracy at its best imo - anybody who suggest otherwise isnt seeing the full picture or is with the "anti EU" bunch.

Stick to web development - it is somewhat less complex than the art of the political smear. I'm pro-EU but I want a democratic EU where my vote is counted and respected. I also think that all of the EU should vote on the Lisbon Treaty.

Regards...jmcc

Sully

jmcc wrote: »

And f*ck them too! If these morons won't respect my vote then why should I respect anything they have to say? I consider most politicians to be intellectual midgets anyway - look at Coughlan for example.

As I said countless times; The people of Ireland are being asked to vote again because they voted last time based on scare mongering from the no side, lack of information from the yes side and to piss of the government.

This time, the Yes side have pulled up their socks and went back to the people with information. You vote based on this and should only vote based on that.

The Lisbon Treaty has not been altered. The "legally binding guarantees" are worthless when major powers are delegated to Brussels. It is just a Home Rule bill but with Brussels pulling the strings instead of London.

They are under international law. Besides, the guarantees are somewhat pointless in the sense they are guaranteeing aspects of the treaty that the No side suggested existed, when it didnt. If anything we have shown to Europe that we are a bit daft by believe the likes of Sinn Fein, Socialists and other nut jobs.

Stick to web development - it is somewhat less complex than the art of the political smear. I'm pro-EU but I want a democratic EU where my vote is counted and respected. I also think that all of the EU should vote on the Lisbon Treaty.

It is democratic though. Even the High Court agrees. You are being asked to consider the facts and go to the polls based on that. The government got guarntees, worked on a campaign of information and spoke to the people.

Ireland has it in its own constitution that we must hold a vote for referendums. Other EU countries do not, hence why it never went to vote elsewhere. Hardly the EUs fault. Its worth noting that if others wanted to They didnt. I dont think others are that concerned that they never get a chance to vote on referendums.

jmcc

Sully wrote: »

As I said countless times; The people of Ireland are being asked to vote again because they voted last time based on scare mongering from the no side, lack of information from the yes side and to piss of the government.

And that's your opinion to which you are perfectly entitled. The majority voted against Lisbon.

This time, the Yes side have pulled up their socks and went back to the people with information.

What part of NO don't you understand?

Regards...jmcc

Sully

jmcc wrote: »

And that's your opinion to which you are perfectly entitled. The majority voted against Lisbon.

But its not opinion. Its fact. Thats why the majority voted against it. Same with the Nice Treaty, which we voted for again and accepted. No abortion, militarization, euthanasia, etc. since then - yet the No side claimed it would bring it in.

What part of NO don't you understand?

As above.

jmcc

Sully wrote: »

But its not opinion. Its fact.

You seem to be having difficulty in distinguishing between your opinion and reality. You don't seem to understand that not everyone shares your opinion on why they voted 'No'. Maybe, and I know this is quite a novel concept for people so immersed in the EUnuch groupthink of the Yes campaign, they had their own reasons.

Regards...jmcc

Grissom

jonnyfingers wrote: »

But that's the thing, nobody is telling me exactly what will happen that is so bad for Ireland if we vote no.

Nor me. Sully, you surely know. Enlighten us pls:rolleyes:



Thanks for that.

I've been reading through the forum since I last posted but I don't have too much free time. Might try again later after work.

Basically I want to cut out all the lies and try to figure out what exactly I'm voting on.[/quote]

Sully wrote: »

The min. wage has no connection with the Lisbon Treaty. Thats just scare tactics by the No campaign.

Incorrect Sully. If you review both the Lavall & Viking cases you will see the connection.




Great resource here on boards is the EU Forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1069

One topic in particular thats good.. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055633086

[/quote]

Check this: http://www.betterthanlisbon.org/index.html

Sully wrote: »

Nope. I'm not having a mini-politics here but I want both the No side and Yes side to use this thread fairly. That includes the Yes side using Europe as a soapbox for voting Yes to Lisbon.

Politics mods warned and issued bans based on soapboxing. Some of these users are following around Boards joining other Lisbon discussions with the same ****e and I wont let it consume this thread. End of.

Democracy in action. How do we complain and have a biased moderator removed??

Sully wrote: »

He made his point, I responded pointing out it was false.
He made it again, I responded pointing out it was false, again, to make sure people did not just see the bull****. Inclusive of a ban, because he has done the same thing in other forums and never listens. Just keeps repeating the same thing.

Both sides of the argument have been heard.

Ridiculous. Really is a Banana Republic:D

Sully

Grissom wrote: »

Nor me. Sully, you surely know. Enlighten us pls:rolleyes:

Nobody knows.

Incorrect Sully. If you review both the Lavall & Viking cases you will see the connection.

But its not the Lisbon Treaty. Its just an EU court ruling.

Great resource here on boards is the EU Forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1069

One topic in particular thats good.. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055633086

Agreed.

Democracy in action. How do we complain and have a biased moderator removed??

Help Desk. I am with the Yes side, but no modding has really been done (bar once) to show bias.

Grissom

Sully wrote: »

Nobody knows.



But its not the Lisbon Treaty. Its just an EU court ruling.



Agreed.



Help Desk. I am with the Yes side, but no modding has really been done (bar once) to show bias.

Its just an EU court ruling but if Lisbon is passed Protocol 27 of the Treaty will come into effect. This copperfastens Ruffert and other judgements and leaves the right to earn the Irish minimum wage open to attack. Thats because in reality , if big businesses can import workers here and pay them country of origin minimum wage, Irish workers can accept those rates or see their jobs go elsewhere. Fact.

http://www.betterthanlisbon.org/index.html

Johnnnybravo

People in this country never learn. The government here have screwed us already and now like sheep people are still willing to lie down altogether and vote yes.

Of course these will be the very people whinging then if the Lisbon Treaty is given the go ahead. Have we not learned by now that if the prick running this country think its a good idea then its probably a brutal idea. ps I am not voting no as a protest to the government, Ive already said why Im voting no already in this thread.

YES to jobs??? Complete Bull, where are these mysterious jobs??
YES to recovery?? LOL do tell me more??

As for the NO campaign, at least we can see the truth behinf their campaign, we know wages and everything else will be cut.

NO thanks to Lisbon and giving in to something I said no to once already.

newme2006

i find it hilarious that anyone would think for one minute that Brussels gives a sh*t about the irish voting no to make a point!! rem the only reason the irish people are voting is because of OUR constitution.

We are a small country on the outskirts of Europe, WE need Europe, but hey, everyone should vote no, and then brussels will be squirming in their seats???

come on, reality check people. WE need Europe, its about time people looked at the cold hard reality of where this country is headed if we choose to keep giving Europe the finger..

Johnnnybravo

newme2006 wrote: »

i find it hilarious that anyone would think for one minute that Brussels gives a sh*t about the irish voting no to make a point!! rem the only reason the irish people are voting is because of OUR constitution.

We are a small country on the outskirts of Europe, WE need Europe, but hey, everyone should vote no, and then brussels will be squirming in their seats???

come on, reality check people. WE need Europe, its about time people looked at the cold hard reality of where this country is headed if we choose to keep giving Europe the finger..

How do we need Europe??

We are still part of the European Union regardless. Just tell me in laymans terms 1 benefit a real one now for voting yes?? and ne we need europe speil unless it has a proper backup speil?

newme2006

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Since Spain voted yes to the EU Constitution, unemployment has doubled. It did them no good. There are already some signs the Irish recession is starting to bottom-out, so we shouldn't surrender sovereignty many died to acheive for the sake of a temporary recession. Evidence of the beginnings of the recovery include Irish exports rising by 5% in the year up to April, industrial-output rising by 9.3% in April-June, relative to UK exports and German exports falling by 9% and 29% respectively in the same period. Spain has 18% unemployment compared to 9% when they voted yes, proving there is no economic dividend from so-called 'goodwill' from surrendering national sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and reducing the Irish say in the QMV voting system to 0.8%. The men and women of 1916 would turn in their graves at the thought of Irish people having only a 0.8% say in their own laws. In any case, it's important to distinguish between how the elites feel about Lisbon and how the European people feel about it. The Czech PM at the time of the negotiations on Lisbon admitted in a recent speech to the European Parliament that the Czechs would have rejected Lisbon in a referendum. The UK Tories have said that the British will have a referendum if the Treaty hasn't come into force in all member states by the time of the next UK General Election. 63% of Dutch in polls oppose Lisbon and the French and Dutch voted no to the EU Constitution, which Bertie and Cowen admit is 95% identical to Lisbon. In that context, we need to distinguish between the Europe of the elites, which is pro Lisbon, and the Europe of the people, much of which is anti-Lisbon or has been denied a direct say on the issue. I much prefer the goodwill of the Europe of the peoples of Europe than the elites.Hold your horses. That is the official justification for the Lisbon Treaty. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true. We have learned from bitter experience in the last 11 years of Tribunals what the word of a politician counts for.

It's ironic to accuse me of "soapboxing" (Oscarbravo in the EU section) when that post is itself soapboxing for the yes camp. :rolleyes:

To some extent, debate is itself - by definition - a form of soapboxing. In that context I cal for my ban in the EU forum to be lifted.

On the specifc argument that Lisbon is needed for the EU to work smoothly, I will provide as a counterargument some of the conclusions of a London School of Economics study by Professor Helen Wallace which found that the Nice Treaty arrangements have continued to work smoothly since Enlargement. Specifically quoting from the report:

I read the first line, i stopped... and laughed...

Its like saying that you decided to buy a car and it started raining. How can the fact that they decided to vote yes on the treaty have an effect on unemployment if the treaty has yet to come into effect?

newme2006

Johnnnybravo wrote: »

How do we need Europe??

We are still part of the European Union regardless. Just tell me in laymans terms 1 benefit a real one now for voting yes?? and ne we need europe speil unless it has a proper backup speil?

how can you possibly believe that we are part of Europe when out of the 27 countries making up the Europe, we will be the only one who will not have accepted the Treaty? We are a small country who has benefited greatly from our membership of Europe, by rejecting this treaty again, we will be ignored.

We will be part of Europe regardless? i own a part of old trafford, its a framed document that i got for €10 on a website a few years back, i can always say i own a part of Old Trafford... but i know the reality.

Grissom

newme2006 wrote: »

how can you possibly believe that we are part of Europe when out of the 27 countries making up the Europe, we will be the only one who will not have accepted the Treaty? We are a small country who has benefited greatly from our membership of Europe, by rejecting this treaty again, we will be ignored.

We will be part of Europe regardless? i own a part of old trafford, its a framed document that i got for €10 on a website a few years back, i can always say i own a part of Old Trafford... but i know the reality.

In 2005 both France & The Netherlands rejected, by referendum, the European Constitution. The Countitution was then repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty so in effect we are not the only ones to reject it. In excess of 97% of the Constitution is contained in the Lisbon Treaty, word for word. Fact.

"........by rejecting this treaty again, we will be ignored." This is obviously an opinion as Jose Manuel Barosso, the European Commisson President, is on record as saying on Sept 9th this year that "there will be no discrimination against Irish people if there is a second No vote on the Lisbon Treaty..."

What this essentially means is that Barosso is either lying in which case we should definately vote no, or else you are scaremongering....

Johnnnybravo

newme2006 wrote: »

how can you possibly believe that we are part of Europe when out of the 27 countries making up the Europe, we will be the only one who will not have accepted the Treaty? We are a small country who has benefited greatly from our membership of Europe, by rejecting this treaty again, we will be ignored.

We will be part of Europe regardless? i own a part of old trafford, its a framed document that i got for €10 on a website a few years back, i can always say i own a part of Old Trafford... but i know the reality.

Well I asked for 1 valid reason and Im still waiting

caseyann

Nehaxak wrote: »

Yes and conveniently the French nun of course can't be found anywhere.

I know the nun exists she has leaflet out i will get her name for you if you think i am scaremongering,and she isn't real,(I was told about her by girl i know). Definitely not like others saying we are going to have no work and be left behind if we vote NO. It had nothing to with with this thread and stop trying to drag me into some kind of argument.You already shouted your ass off in your other posts. Didn't put it as gospel did i? But because you don't like it i have to not enjoy reading stuff like that.If you don't like it don't read it.

Sully

We really need to gear this back towards Waterford(sh) related.. and none of the swings and roundabouts. I'm not trying to create a mini politics here and I can see both sides are repeating each other constantly (me included!).

*ponders*

Sully

Mod Note:

caseyann; This is a discussion site. Posting videos without any comment is not a discussion. If you want to discuss something and back it up with a video - by all means. But video only are not welcome. Post removed.

Sully

In seperate news.. the "No" side have admitted to misleading the voters. Every No campaigner I asked has been unable to tell me where Lisbon effects the min. wage. Even today, folk in this topic have tried to use the same argument without actually proving how Lisbon effects the min. wage.

We have an admission from Coir, publicly, that it wont be effected.

IBEC has said that the claim from anti-Lisbon Group Coir on its posters that the Lisbon Treaty will result in the minimum wage in Ireland being reduced to €1.84 per hour was "a blatant lie, without foundation and an insult to the intelligence of Irish voters".

IBEC is calling on Coir to remove the posters following an interview by Coir spokesman Brian Hickey on RTE's 'Drivetime' programme in which he said that the Lisbon Treaty would "have no effect" on the Irish minimum wage.

According to Brendan Butler, IBEC's Director of EU and International Affairs the claim is "without any foundation and is a cynical attempt to scare voters with deliberate misinformation".

Mr Butler said: "The EU has absolutely no role in setting the minimum wage, it is a matter for each individual country. Ireland has the second highest minimum wage in Europe, and this is set by the Irish Government.

"The Lisbon Treaty does not change this and the European Court of Justice has absolutely no role in respect of individual countries statutory pay arrangements."

Source: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ibec-minimum-wage-posters-rotten-to-the-coir-426906.html#ixzz0RbIhcfOX

Having to spoken to several young Waterford people today, this is one of their fears. Sinn Fein have started to run with it after Coir did. We have an admission from Coir that its bull**** and that it has no effect. The dropping of min. wage has a serious impact on workers and was causing people to be very concerned and leaning towards a no vote - with so many Wateford folk unemployed or in lower paid jobs now, this fear made it a lot worse. But, as the Yes side have been saying all along, this is not true.

caseyann

Sully wrote: »

Mod Note:

caseyann; This is a discussion site. Posting videos without any comment is not a discussion. If you want to discuss something and back it up with a video - by all means. But video only are not welcome. Post removed.

I was going to just was getting the other video sorry.With them point was, Our very own Eamon de valera spoke out against Irish giving up to another state our freedom and rights that we have not had for very long as it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD09AwrWWkI
People all over Europe are pleading with us to vote no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWdomxmzR7U&feature=related

Sully

Cheers for the additonal comment.

I think the De Valera thing is misleading though, but at least you never said he spoke specifically against the EU 50 years ago (one no group is saying so in their campaign info). We still have a lot of power and control but also look upon the EU for extra laws and protection. We have a say in these laws etc. and can block them, if need be.

Look at the pensions and Waterford Crystal. The EU are/were looking into how our government handled the pension funds protection to see if they breach EU Law.

Dell workers are being given sums of money to help since being laid off. The EU investigated Polands cheeky deal with Dell to see if it was illegal or not.

EU have given money to pig farmers, IIRC, after the recent crisis to help them get by.

caseyann

Sully wrote: »

Cheers for the additonal comment.

I think the De Valera thing is misleading though, but at least you never said he spoke specifically against the EU 50 years ago (one no group is saying so in their campaign info). We still have a lot of power and control but also look upon the EU for extra laws and protection. We have a say in these laws etc. and can block them, if need be.

Look at the pensions and Waterford Crystal. The EU are/were looking into how our government handled the pension funds protection to see if they breach EU Law.

Dell workers are being given sums of money to help since being laid off. The EU investigated Polands cheeky deal with Dell to see if it was illegal or not.

EU have given money to pig farmers, IIRC, after the recent crisis to help them get by.

I understand all of what you are saying.I am not against been a member of the EU at all.
But i am against the hidden agenda that is underlying in the Lisbon treaty.It is not a solid guarantee for Ireland and there is to many questions and not enough answers. The bringing of other EU laws that we as a nation have not for ourselves wanted.Its taking the rights out of the hands of the Irish and giving it away.
We will not have a say,its anti democratic anti the people and going to a place Ireland should not go.
We are still a young free country this is not a good idea.Our government is feeble and without interest in anything of the Irish,and they are pushing for the vote yes not because of us but because of their own greed and interests.

If i was paranoid i would find it very odd that our economy took a nose dive after we said no in such extremities(But that's for conspiracy theories)


Majority of eyes are all on Ireland and praying we vote no.

And how did they find in dell cheeky deal with Poland?
I am just curious how many Irish people have gone abroad and benefited from the EU membership,and how many immigrants have traveled to Ireland and benefited from EU membership?

P.S Tá fáilte romhat

Sully

Lisbon is just an improvement on niece, mostly. Bar those voting right changes.. there isnt much else in regards to power. Anything to make the EU more efficent really. Even the "No" side seem to agree its little to do with power - their argument is based around the usual ****e when an EU Treaty comes about.

As for our economy - it was predicted well before Lisbon. People dont understand that Lisbon can not effect our country - or any other - unless its ratified. It isnt, so anything that happened either way is unrelated.

Must look into the EU/Dell thing. Never did hear anything after.

Traumadoc

Sully wrote: »

As for our economy - it was predicted well before Lisbon. People dont understand that Lisbon can not effect our country - or any other - unless its ratified. It isnt, so anything that happened either way is unrelated.

Must look into the EU/Dell thing. Never did hear anything after.

So the "yes to jobs" implying there will be more jobs with a yes vote is ****e?

Sully

Nakatomi wrote: »

So the "yes to jobs" implying there will be more jobs with a yes vote is ****e?

I answered that question in another post here.