lisbon treaty

Johnnnybravo

Sully wrote: »

I answered that question in another post here.

Sully you didnt really answer it, you copy and pasted a piece of jargon which was just fluff and meant nothing

As for thr minimum wage yes it can be changed if Lisbon goes ahead and they will want to bring Ireland in line with the other countries and as it stands we have a much higher min wage so of course it will be cut. As far as I cam tell on researching this, the countries where it was passed without a vote are not happy campers so why on earth are Irish people ok with voting yes. We will not be disowned by Europe over this:rolleyes:

Sully

Johnnnybravo wrote: »

Sully you didnt really answer it, you copy and pasted a piece of jargon which was just fluff and meant nothing

What didnt you understand?

As for thr minimum wage yes it can be changed if Lisbon goes ahead and they will want to bring Ireland in line with the other countries and as it stands we have a much higher min wage so of course it will be cut. As far as I cam tell on researching this, the countries where it was passed without a vote are not happy campers so why on earth are Irish people ok with voting yes. We will not be disowned by Europe over this:rolleyes:

1) Coir have came out and said the min. wage wont be changed by Lisbon. Sure, we knew this all along but its good to know they admitted it being false. Its not in the Lisbon treaty at all. The EU can not dictate to Ireland what our min. wage can be. Only the Irish government can do so. This has not changed in Lisbon. So, you are wrong in the above statement. Dont keep quoting stuff the No side has already said the opposite.

2) I doubt they are not happy campers - you will always get a small selection of society who oppose every treaty and everything. Just like we have here in Ireland. If they were unhappy, there would be a lot more protests and trouble. People would hardly sit back and just take it, surely?!

3) Ah ya sure, every other country is going to stop because little old Ireland wasnt happy with the treaty because of a few points that were not in Lisbon at all. Yeah, keep thinking that. I am aware of businesses fairly heavily involved with FDI who are all to well aware of the consequences of a no vote. Other countires looking for FDI are using our intial rejection to Lisbon, indicating that Ireland are less involved with the EU, as a reason to go with them over us. This seemed to be backed up by EU President yesterday.

Johnnnybravo

Sully wrote: »

What didnt you understand?



1) Coir have came out and said the min. wage wont be changed by Lisbon. Sure, we knew this all along but its good to know they admitted it being false. Its not in the Lisbon treaty at all. So, you are wrong in the above statement. Dont keep quoting stuff the No side has already said the opposite.

2) I doubt they are not happy campers - you will always get a small selection of society who oppose every treaty and everything. Just like we have here in Ireland. If they were unhappy, there would be a lot more protests and trouble. People would hardly sit back and just take it, surely?!

3) Ah ya sure, every other country is going to stop because little old Ireland wasnt happy with the treaty because of a few points that were not in Lisbon at all. Yeah, keep thinking that. I am aware of businesses fairly heavily involved with FDI who are all to well aware of the consequences of a no vote. Other countires looking for FDI are using our intial rejection to Lisbon, indicating that Ireland are less involved with the EU, as a reason to go with them over us. This seemed to be backed up by EU President yesterday.

Sully you know the jargon Im on about, the piece you posted Friday night Re Lisbon meaning more jobs?? That did not answer my question.

I guarantee you that if it does go ahead, the min wage will go down. Ive seen what you posted already with regard to this but I personally do beliveve it will be cut.

Sully

In terms of job creations, the treaty sets out areas for jobs in the Common Energy Policy, Green Technologies and combating climate change. The effects of a "No" vote in terms of creating jobs will not be felt for at least 4 years or so (based on the the typical lead time for the creation of an FDI job). FDI is very important for companies and I have already commented on that in an earlier post. More FDI can lead to more jobs.

Also; "Just under 91 per cent of the economists expressed the belief a Yes vote best-served the economic interests of the State".
Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0912/1224254386236.html

Energy and Environmental areas have potential to create jobs in Green energy technology development. The Green party and other similar believers have been saying this for a long time now, and our local resident Stan Nangle (a Green party member who ran for council in Waterford County & Tramore) would probably agree (I seem to recall him speaking to me about the potential of Green Tech. development).

That would be some of the basis for the argument for Jobs/Recovery imo anyway.

As for the min wage - it wont go down under the hammer from Europe anyway. We already have calls from some bodys in Ireland to bring it down and I think the Irish government were considering it at some stage recently. But, nothing to do with Europe or Lisbon. I would not be a fan of "one wage throughout Europe" and think Ireland is not ready for a wage drop (even if it is needed). Europe have no power through Lisbon to do this - or in generall. Its not really fair to say they do, and Coir have already came out and admitted they were wrong on that regard - Coir being one of the biggest No campaigners who first came out with the suggestion.

Johnnnybravo

Sully wrote: »

In terms of job creations, the treaty sets out areas for jobs in the Common Energy Policy, Green Technologies and combating climate change. The effects of a "No" vote in terms of creating jobs will not be felt for at least 4 years or so (based on the the typical lead time for the creation of an FDI job). FDI is very important for companies and I have already commented on that in an earlier post. More FDI can lead to more jobs.

Also; "Just under 91 per cent of the economists expressed the belief a Yes vote best-served the economic interests of the State".
Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0912/1224254386236.html

Energy and Environmental areas have potential to create jobs in Green energy technology development. The Green party and other similar believers have been saying this for a long time now, and our local resident Stan Nangle (a Green party member who ran for council in Waterford County & Tramore) would probably agree (I seem to recall him speaking to me about the potential of Green Tech. development).

That would be some of the basis for the argument for Jobs/Recovery imo anyway.

As for the min wage - it wont go down under the hammer from Europe anyway. We already have calls from some bodys in Ireland to bring it down and I think the Irish government were considering it at some stage recently. But, nothing to do with Europe or Lisbon. I would not be a fan of "one wage throughout Europe" and think Ireland is not ready for a wage drop (even if it is needed). Europe have no power through Lisbon to do this - or in generall. Its not really fair to say they do, and Coir have already came out and admitted they were wrong on that regard - Coir being one of the biggest No campaigners who first came out with the suggestion.

Thanks for the reply Sully.

I think for myself and yourself anyway we may agree to differ, Im a NO and your a YES. Personally aside from the min wage thing even though I do believe it will be affected, as I said I dont want certain directives brought in here as a result of Lisbon. So each to their own.

alrightcuz

The European Commission has approved a grant of €14.8m to help former workers at Dell in Limerick to find new jobs

Mr Barroso said: 'The economic crisis is affecting all European countries, but Limerick and the surrounding area have been hit hard by job losses at the local Dell plant and its suppliers.
'The EU is built on solidarity. Our natural response is to come to the aid of those who are experiencing difficulties and to take decisive action to tackle the jobs impact of the crisis.'

The anti-Lisbon Treaty campaigner, former MEP Patricia McKenna, has said the announcement was conveniently opportune.
In a statement, the Chairperson of the People's Movement accused the EU Commission of unlawful interference in the Irish referendum debate.



Europe of the future will be a bit like the European song contest, neighbor helping neighbor and wheel be lucky just to make the contest,

caseyann

Sully wrote: »

Lisbon is just an improvement on niece, mostly. Bar those voting right changes.. there isnt much else in regards to power. Anything to make the EU more efficent really. Even the "No" side seem to agree its little to do with power - their argument is based around the usual ****e when an EU Treaty comes about.

As for our economy - it was predicted well before Lisbon. People dont understand that Lisbon can not effect our country - or any other - unless its ratified. It isnt, so anything that happened either way is unrelated.

Must look into the EU/Dell thing. Never did hear anything after.

Surely to god,wouldn't that raise alarm bells in your head in first place? They took away the rights of all the other EU citizens to vote for or against it. That in itself is telling people they have no right.They also threatened here to push ahead with the Yes if we voted No again.Brings to many doubts in the powers that would be imo.
I don't like the idea that our high courts will not have final say in matters also and with the countries been attacked and we have to go in with them if they say so.Is there the compulsory army service going to be brought in also?
To many alarm bells.

caseyann

alrightcuz wrote: »

The European Commission has approved a grant of €14.8m to help former workers at Dell in Limerick to find new jobs

Mr Barroso said: 'The economic crisis is affecting all European countries, but Limerick and the surrounding area have been hit hard by job losses at the local Dell plant and its suppliers.
'The EU is built on solidarity. Our natural response is to come to the aid of those who are experiencing difficulties and to take decisive action to tackle the jobs impact of the crisis.'

The anti-Lisbon Treaty campaigner, former MEP Patricia McKenna, has said the announcement was conveniently opportune.
In a statement, the Chairperson of the People's Movement accused the EU Commission of unlawful interference in the Irish referendum debate.



Europe of the future will be a bit like the European song contest, neighbor helping neighbor and wheel be lucky just to make the contest,

They scratch each others backs and dont scratch ours is what it will be.

Our best Allie is Britain now :eek:

Sully

caseyann wrote: »

Surely to god,wouldn't that raise alarm bells in your head in first place? They took away the rights of all the other EU citizens to vote for or against it. That in itself is telling people they have no right.They also threatened here to push ahead with the Yes if we voted No again.Brings to many doubts in the powers that would be imo.
I don't like the idea that our high courts will not have final say in matters also and with the countries been attacked and we have to go in with them if they say so.Is there the compulsory army service going to be brought in also?
To many alarm bells.

Incorrect. That was each member states responsibility and nothing to do with the EU.

Of course they want to push ahead - the treaty is harmless and just makes imporvements to the union. Overtime its just become a mess and the Lisbon addresses it making it easier to run and much neater. Europe are not going to hold back because of little old Ireland. Unlikely we will depart EU though, if it was a No vote.

You always get loonies harping on about different aspects as scarmongering when its not true (min. wage a good example). The high courts never had a final say pre lisbon - we always had the option of taking outside of Ireland (beyond the Supreme Court) - thats nothing new. The militirsation is not a requirement - but we already help out other countries in the form of peace keeping and so on. Plus, we have our own army as do most member states.

There not alarm bells - they just indicate you dont understand who Europe has worked and are believing the scaremongering. Just inform yourself either through discussions like this, reading the treaty or looking in the EU forum which is a great resource.

Dr. Baltar

I agree with the treaty completely, but was unable to take part in the referendum the last time.

I was apalled when I heard that the referendum would be happening again because our first answer was the will of the Irish people!

Because of this, I still agree with the treaty but refuse to cast an undemocratic decision and as such I will be abstaining.

caseyann

Sully wrote: »

Incorrect. That was each member states responsibility and nothing to do with the EU.

Of course they want to push ahead - the treaty is harmless and just makes imporvements to the union. Overtime its just become a mess and the Lisbon addresses it making it easier to run and much neater. Europe are not going to hold back because of little old Ireland. Unlikely we will depart EU though, if it was a No vote.

You always get loonies harping on about different aspects as scarmongering when its not true (min. wage a good example). The high courts never had a final say pre lisbon - we always had the option of taking outside of Ireland (beyond the Supreme Court) - thats nothing new. The militirsation is not a requirement - but we already help out other countries in the form of peace keeping and so on. Plus, we have our own army as do most member states.

There not alarm bells - they just indicate you dont understand who Europe has worked and are believing the scaremongering. Just inform yourself either through discussions like this, reading the treaty or looking in the EU forum which is a great resource.

And brings back wider questions again pertaining who is running what? Ireland runs its own and if EU doesn't like it they step in and dislodge it?
Their Judicial system changing,more immigrants?
It is a a nuclear bomb waiting to go off imo.
I have read up on it and from what i am understanding the only reason you think its a good idea is because of the jobs?
Yet there is still no guarantee of anything.
More countries joining the EU and because their countries are poor they are going to swamp Ireland and other countries instead of training people for what they are needed as native to the countries.Ofc some immigration,but not on the scale we are seeing it.Its just a massive load of mess.

People are not loonies because they have genuine fears in relation and see so many things that are not right for us here as a nation.Also why is so many other countries praying for us to say NO and its on vast majority from what i can tell.

Waterford26

u have very quickly forgot on EU help a couple years ago lads..where were you that time??..poor country..no future.. thousands of irish in US or GB. Now u pissing them off???..I am surprised by so many lies ..1,86e wage etc.. If u r so patriots and nationalist ..u shouldnt join EU that time!!! Shame on u!!! I see that u have no idea what is treaty all about..read it first!! ..dont listen 'clever' politics!!

Sully

Waterford26 wrote: »

u have very quickly forgot on EU help a couple years ago lads..where were you that time??..poor country..no future.. thousands of irish in US or GB. Now u pissing them off???..I am surprised by so many lies ..1,86e wage etc.. If u r so patriots and nationalist ..u shouldnt join EU that time!!! Shame on u!!! I see that u have no idea what is treaty all about..read it first!! ..dont listen 'clever' politics!!

Can we keep to more normal text and move further away from the text speak please? Post is hard to read when in txt frm. Cheers.

Sully

caseyann wrote: »

And brings back wider questions again pertaining who is running what? Ireland runs its own and if EU doesn't like it they step in and dislodge it?

No idea what you are refering to here.

Their Judicial system changing,more immigrants?i
it is a a nuclear bomb waiting to go off imo.
I have read up on it and from what i am understanding the only reason you think its a good idea is because of the jobs?

Jobs? Not at all. I believe our local government should be pumping that more so then the EU. I am voting yes because, after reading the treaty and weighing it all up (including seeing who I would be voting with if I said no.. ) I believe that its a harmless document which sets about improving europe and making great changes for everyone.

Yet there is still no guarantee of anything.
More countries joining the EU and because their countries are poor they are going to swamp Ireland and other countries instead of training people for what they are needed as native to the countries.Ofc some immigration,but not on the scale we are seeing it.Its just a massive load of mess.

Sure, the next country to join us is Croatia soon enough. Turkey etc. are a LONG way off. Negotation is very very much behind on that. Besides, thats a Europe thing and not Lisbon. Unless your voting against Lisbon as an anti-EU stance?

People are not loonies because they have genuine fears in relation and see so many things that are not right for us here as a nation.Also why is so many other countries praying for us to say NO and its on vast majority from what i can tell.

Genuine? Min. wage was a "genuine fear" later admitted to be false. Then we have the usual arguments with every treaty sine the EU began - abortion, euthensia, etc. which have nothing to do with Lisbon at all. Just bull**** tbh. No other country are begging for us to say no - if they were, Lisbon would never have been put to vote in parliments across the member state and if they did against their will there would be uproar. Its not like every member state is going to let their government screw them over without a fight. What you see on YouTube and other websites are the minor groupies harping on because they either dont fully understand the treaty or they are just scaremongering / anti-eu. Its obviouslly not a massive majority, otherwise there would be uproar in the states by now.

Waterford26

Sully wrote: »

Can we keep to more normal text and move further away from the text speak please? Post is hard to read when in txt frm. Cheers.

sorry ..emotions

jmcc

I'm beginning to wonder if this thread is just degenerating into an opportunity for you to climb on a soapbox Sully.
The thread is drifting away from being a purely Waterford based thread to one that is more logically included in the Politics forum.

Regards...jmcc

Traumadoc

Sully wrote: »

What you see on YouTube and other websites are the minor groupies harping on because they either dont fully understand the treaty or they are just scaremongering / anti-eu. Its obviouslly not a massive majority, otherwise there would be uproar in the states by now.

Majority here voted against this treaty - majorities can be ignored.

Johnnnybravo

NO all the way, Roll on the 2nd!

Boskowski

The_Thing wrote: »

Irish sovereignty is being gradually eroded, if we don't put a stop to it we will one day find ourselves members of the United States Of Europe ruled by a federal government in Brussels.

This is where it's heading all along. Funny people only starting to realize this now.

Plus, what exactly would be wrong with that? I for one would be glad if Irish politicians would be allowed to make decisions on Leinster House lawn renovations only. I mean the sooner the gombeen, corrupt, dumbass carry-on comes to an end the better right?

Sully

jmcc wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if this thread is just degenerating into an opportunity for you to climb on a soapbox Sully.
The thread is drifting away from being a purely Waterford based thread to one that is more logically included in the Politics forum.

Regards...jmcc

Indeed you are right in saying its gone a drift, I indicated that a few posts ago. Lets try re-focus the discussion as such.

jmcc

Sully wrote: »

Indeed you are right in saying its gone a drift, I indicated that a few posts ago. Lets try re-focus the discussion as such.

So what will a Yes vote do for Waterford? Will the EU try to ban Blaas and have us all eating paninis?

Regards...jmcc

defence forces

i am not from waterford i'm from arklow but i felt it being the south east and all that and people are familar with arklow. I want to put a quick post not about yes or no, but this: arklow has in the last 20 -30 lost nearly all of its industries such as fishing and the large fertiliser factory (which moved to China) the sawmills are also closing down due to competetion from abroad, a lot of people there having lost thier jobs turned to alcohol and herion and of course depression and suicide, and with the recent recession its getting worse, in my mind thier deaths lay squarely at the feet of this government and its over the top commitment to the EU. I don't see this treaty giving us more jobs or indeed Europe for that matter. Being in co-operation with europe for trade and infrastructure is ok, but i dont think its ok when native industries are decimated and moved abroad. I had some girl tell me on another thread that we cant live in an agarian eutopia, and people should retrain to be computer programmers like her. I wont repeat myself but i hope someone gets the picture i'm trying to put accross.

Sully

defence forces wrote: »

i am not from waterford i'm from arklow but i felt it being the south east and all that and people are familar with arklow. I want to put a quick post not about yes or no, but this: arklow has in the last 20 -30 lost nearly all of its industries such as fishing and the large fertiliser factory (which moved to China) the sawmills are also closing down due to competetion from abroad, a lot of people there having lost thier jobs turned to alcohol and herion and of course depression and suicide, and with the recent recession its getting worse, in my mind thier deaths lay squarely at the feet of this government and its over the top commitment to the EU. I don't see this treaty giving us more jobs or indeed Europe for that matter. Being in co-operation with europe for trade and infrastructure is ok, but i dont think its ok when native industries are decimated and moved abroad. I had some girl tell me on another thread that we cant live in an agarian eutopia, and people should retrain to be computer programmers like her. I wont repeat myself but i hope someone gets the picture i'm trying to put accross.

Thanks for your contribution but we are going back on topic to be more Waterford related here rather then Lisbon in general. Best make your comment over the in the EU forum I think.

alrightcuz

hay waterford26
since Eu membership " estimated European vessels have taken up to 200 BILLION worth of fish out of our waters add fish processing and the value of the fish jumps to around 600 BILLION - 10 TIMES the 60 Billion we received from Brussels.

DEATH PAID IN FULL WE OWE EU NOTING
and when u think about it thats probably why the helped us anyways next they'll exploit our enormous gas and oil reserves.

out of 27 EU states only ireland ,thanks to our constitution got the right to vote and when no was the the answer they got,,, we have to do it again.

noting has changed in the Lisbon treaty and it would be dishonest to suggest otherwise and the guarantees are not legally binding,only promises that will be included in a treaty at some unknown time in the future

would u sign a contract that was based on promises and word of mouth,,,

alrightcuz

if the lisbon treaty is passed can europe make us take the swine flu shot???
ive been hearing alot about being forced to take the swine flu shot,, and people have said its in our constitution that we cant be forced,,,, doesn't lisbon give Europe precedence over our constitution so they can decide for us... im not after yes or no for the treaty on this matter i just want to know if we voted yes an 2months down the line can we be forced to take this poison

theflucase.com

Sully

I think this topic has run its course and can go no further for either side, without going in a continuous loop.

I recommend anybody who wishes to discuss the Lisbon Treaty further visits the EU Forum here on Boards.i which is a great place for further information and discussion points.

Topic Closed.