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Are there any yes voters out there who DO value national sovereignty / democracy?
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... My comment about left/right wingers I stand by(I said across MANY forums that Ireland seems to have become much more right wing than it used to be,that was meant merely as a comment in general about were Ireland is now(as a snapshot in time)
I dont think it is Laughable as the yes political parties are by tradition mainly right wing.
it is hard to call the Labour party left wing(in fact i dont think they are ever sure were they stand(they Should be my party of choice!)
the remaining *left wing*parties are firm NO vote advocates...
I do not like to sum my political sentiments up with such a brief summary as "right-wing" or "left-wing". But I am most certainly not right-wing. And I think the economic and social policies of Socialist Party, PBP, and SF are simply nonsense.
Being somewhere on the left does not deter me from being pro-Lisbon.
I don't think Lisbon is an issue that turns on what I think of as "ordinary" political sentiment (that is, non-extremist positions), because the treaty is dominantly about making the EU function a bit more efficiently.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote:Because I firmly believe that is IS important to keep our national sovereignty, and no amount of argument will change my mind about that.
That would be my view as well. National Sovereignty is the key issue in this debate as far as I'm concerned. I don't blame the yes side for refusing to deal with it though. I think the no side are to blame for failing to make this an issue. If the no side were to ignore everything else and focus solely on the erosion of national sovereignty that further EU integration will entail then I think they would do far more damage to the Lisbon treaty than anything else.
Ireland's ability to govern itself as an independent nation will be weakened by the passing of the Lisbon treaty. The no side need to spend as much time drilling this into people's heads as the yes side spend telling us how much we need Europe.hatrickpatrick wrote:Put very simply: If it's a step towards a federal government, I am 100% absolutely definitely not voting for it.
So is it a step towards that or not?
I think it is a step in the direction of a federal Europe. If in fifty years from now the EU has become fully federalised the historians will look back and point to the passing of the Lisbon treaty as a major first step in the move from a union to a federation of European states.0 -
Ireland's ability to govern itself as an independent nation will be weakened by the passing of the Lisbon treaty. The no side need to spend as much time drilling this into people's heads as the yes side spend telling us how much we need Europe.
The question I would ask in response to this, is whether you really believe that in todays highly integrated world a nation can actually successfully govern itself as a fully independent nation.
Exactly which policy areas do you want to independently govern?
Would you not accept that in most of the areas where we have accepted pooled/shared sovereignty it is because in those areas we see that it's better to have some influence over the other EU states because decisions taken internally in Ireland are pretty meaningless.
Our ability to govern ourselves as an independent nation was weakened by the nature of the modern world, where environmental issues know no boundaries, financial crises know no boundraries, human rights issues know no boundaries, energy shortages know no boundaries, organised crime knows no boundaries, trade issues know no boundaries. I could go on.
The EU and pooled sovereignty has been Ireland's and other states' solution to the issue of national irrelevancy on global and regional issues.
Ix.0 -
The question I would ask in response to this, is whether you really believe that in todays highly integrated world a nation can actually successfully govern itself as a fully independent nation.
Exactly which policy areas do you want to independently govern?
Ix.
Well, that's revealing to know that you already believe that our sovereignty is lost so we should give the eu whatever powers of sovereignty we have left!
Terrible as it may sound to the one-worlders here, I think we should keep policy areas like taxation, foreign policy, immigration, education, health, finance, marine, environmental etc. etc. I want our elected politicians held accountable for decisions made in these areas, note some faceless Brussels bureaucrat.
As an example, remember the EU charging schools for water last year (many schools facing €10,000 water bills)? What was our politicians response? it's our obligation to Europe, or the decision was made in Europe, so don't blame me. Politicians don't want to be held accountable.
So who will be responsible? Mary Harken, Pat 'The Cope' Gallagher et al. have a minuscule voting weight in a 500 million federal europe. The abstract concept of 'influence' doesn't cut it as this influence can wane anytime. Don't tell me they can be held accountable for decisions made by Jean Claude Whatshisname and the socialists party in Brussles. We'd be lucky if we see them once in 5 years!0 -
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ixtlan wrote:The question I would ask in response to this, is whether you really believe that in todays highly integrated world a nation can actually successfully govern itself as a fully independent nation.
Yes, I do. I think independent nation states should work more closely together but I don't see why countries should be forced to accept laws that aren't made in their national parliament. I think the legislature of each each nation state should have the final say over any law imposed on the people of that state.ixtlan wrote:Exactly which policy areas do you want to independently govern?
It's like asking a man how much taxes he'd like to pay.
I want us to have the maximimum control over our own affairs both as individuals and as nations. I consider myself to be a libertarian at a domestic level and a nationalist at an internaional level. I think we've already handed over too much power to Europe already and I don't want to see us hand over any more.ixtlan wrote:Would you not accept that in most of the areas where we have accepted pooled/shared sovereignty it is because in those areas we see that it's better to have some influence over the other EU states because decisions taken internally in Ireland are pretty meaningless.
It's not about decision-making. I have no problem with countries co-operating and working together to achieve common goals. The EU can make as many decisions as they want but the member states should not be forced to accept them if they don't believe them to be in their national interests.ixtlan wrote:Our ability to govern ourselves as an independent nation was weakened by the nature of the modern world, where environmental issues know no boundaries, financial crises know no boundraries, human rights issues know no boundaries, energy shortages know no boundaries, organised crime knows no boundaries, trade issues know no boundaries. I could go on.
You're confusing co-operation with the handing over of our sovereignty. I agree that we need to work more closely with other countries but I don't agree with handing over our ability to refuse any law that our elected representatives deem not to to be in our best interests.ixtlan wrote:The EU and pooled sovereignty has been Ireland's and other states' solution to the issue of national irrelevancy on global and regional issues.
I don't think so. I think European integration has been pursued and will continue to be pursued by people who view EU integration as an end in itself.0 -
Yes, I do. I think independent nation states should work more closely together but I don't see why countries should be forced to accept laws that aren't made in their national parliament. I think the legislature of each each nation state should have the final say over any law imposed on the people of that state.
It's like asking a man how much taxes he'd like to pay.
I want us to have the maximimum control over our own affairs both as individuals and as nations. I consider myself to be a libertarian at a domestic level and a nationalist at an internaional level. I think we've already handed over too much power to Europe already and I don't want to see us hand over any more.
It's not about decision-making. I have no problem with countries co-operating and working together to achieve common goals. The EU can make as many decisions as they want but the member states should not be forced to accept them if they don't believe them to be in their national interests.
You're confusing co-operation with the handing over of our sovereignty. I agree that we need to work more closely with other countries but I don't agree with handing over our ability to refuse any law that our elected representatives deem not to to be in our best interests.
I don't think so. I think European integration has been pursued and will continue to be pursued by people who view EU integration as an end in itself.
How would you regulate a common market with non binding rules?
No one is forcing Ireland to accept laws from outside Ireland, however if you want to be in a club, you sign up to the rules of the club.
We can always leave the club, which is what I suspect you want. If so, fair enough, I disagree.0 -
My comment about left/right wingers I stand by(I said across MANY forums that Ireland seems to have become much more right wing than it used to be,that was meant merely as a comment in general about were Ireland is now(as a snapshot in time)
I dont think it is Laughable as the yes political parties are by tradition mainly right wing.
it is hard to call the Labour party left wing(in fact i dont think they are ever sure were they stand(they Should be my party of choice!)
the remaining *left wing*parties are firm NO vote advocates.
surely if Everybody was to be honest they are NOT entirely sure exactly what they would be voting for,and the long term consequences?
Personally I'm liberal on most issues but at the same time I don't see that as hard and fast rule. My views are different depending on what we're talking about. Most of the Yes supporters I know are liberals and pretty centrist in general or a bit left leaning. I personally don't know any right wing Yes campaigners, they mostly appear to be No voters.
There are very few left or right wing parties in Ireland most of our politicians are centrist (maybe populist would be a better word), albeit slightly left or slightly right. Although on some issues they take a more left or right view, again populist I suppose.
As for long term consequences, the EU has never tried to make us do anything, they have always done everything through negotiation. So what reason do I have to be worried about the future consequences?0 -
It's like asking a man how much taxes he'd like to pay.
I want us to have the maximimum control over our own affairs both as individuals and as nations. I consider myself to be a libertarian at a domestic level and a nationalist at an internaional level. I think we've already handed over too much power to Europe already and I don't want to see us hand over any more.
You're confusing co-operation with the handing over of our sovereignty. I agree that we need to work more closely with other countries but I don't agree with handing over our ability to refuse any law that our elected representatives deem not to to be in our best interests.
I believe I see the problem here. You see having as near to 100% control as being the only way forward here. However I think many would argue that the idea you can have that level of control is absurd in the world we live in. I also think they would argue that given the quality of many of our politicians what we might do with this 'sovereignty' would probably not be pretty. Personally I'd trust the EU over most of our politicians, in general anyway.
I completely disagree with your suggestion what we're handing over sovereignty we're just agreeing with our EU neighbours to share control in certain areas. At any stage we can change our minds if we feel this has gone too far.
Maybe you can direct me to a law that Ireland disagreed with?I don't think so. I think European integration has been pursued and will continue to be pursued by people who view EU integration as an end in itself.
For me I won't agree to full EU integration or any Federalist state so if (or when) that's put forward I'll be voting No. From what I've seen of the Yes campaigners in here most of them feel the same.0 -
Terrible as it may sound to the one-worlders here, I think we should keep policy areas like taxation, foreign policy, immigration, education, health, finance, marine, environmental etc. etc. I want our elected politicians held accountable for decisions made in these areas, note some faceless Brussels bureaucrat.
Are you just making this stuff up? One-worlders?!? What?As an example, remember the EU charging schools for water last year (many schools facing €10,000 water bills)? What was our politicians response? it's our obligation to Europe, or the decision was made in Europe, so don't blame me. Politicians don't want to be held accountable.
Yup cause water is free, it just gets to your taps as if by magic.So who will be responsible? Mary Harken, Pat 'The Cope' Gallagher et al. have a minuscule voting weight in a 500 million federal europe. The abstract concept of 'influence' doesn't cut it as this influence can wane anytime. Don't tell me they can be held accountable for decisions made by Jean Claude Whatshisname and the socialists party in Brussles. We'd be lucky if we see them once in 5 years!
Name one thing the EU has made us do since 1975?0 -
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Well, that's revealing to know that you already believe that our sovereignty is lost so we should give the eu whatever powers of sovereignty we have left!
Terrible as it may sound to the one-worlders here, I think we should keep policy areas like taxation, foreign policy, immigration, education, health, finance, marine, environmental etc. etc. I want our elected politicians held accountable for decisions made in these areas, note some faceless Brussels bureaucrat.
As an example, remember the EU charging schools for water last year (many schools facing €10,000 water bills)? What was our politicians response? it's our obligation to Europe, or the decision was made in Europe, so don't blame me. Politicians don't want to be held accountable.
Thanks for a list finally...
For...
Taxation,
corp tax and personal tax are under full Irish control
Some indirect taxes have EU minimums (eg VAT), which we exceed, so are not affected.
foreign policy
We maintain a full veto on any possible EU foreign policy decisions. However normally we agree with the consensus view of the other EU states. During the Iraq war we would have been in agreement with most of the states, but the UK would have vetoed a common position.
immigration
We can argue this, but the basis of the EU is free movement of people, so there is no choice on immigration of EU nationals unless we want to leave the EU. Do you want to leave? For non-EU nationals it surely makes sense for this to be an EU competence since once non-EU nationals arrives in the EU they can go anywhere in the Schengen area. Yes, we are outside Schengen so it's more complicated but surely you can see the advantage in an EU wide approach, since any illegal immigration to here normally comes through the EU anyhow.
education,
As far as I know this is under Irish control, though it might be a good idea to have some minimum standards, would you not agree?
health
As far as I know this is under Irish control, though it might be a good idea to have some minimum standards, would you not agree?
finance,
depends what aspects you are talking about. Since we share the Euro we must agree to some basic rules. national budgets are under full Irish control.
marine,
In terms of marine resources, I think that may be the one area where it can be realistically argued that the industry might have been better off without us joining the EU.
environmental
You want full national independence for the environment?! So that we can lower our standards? Allow companies all over the EU to pollute to the extent the local government will allow?! To have the chemical companies play states off against each other on how lax controls can be? Are you saying that you are happy for Lithunania to keep open their Chernobyl-type reactor that the EU made shutting down a condition of entry? Sure let it blow up, as long as we have full control of our environmental laws it doesn't matter what the others do?!
Our sovereignty is not lost. It is pooled. I want influence over the other states. I want to be in a position in Ireland to insist that a dangerous nuclear power plant on the Eastern fringes of Europe is shut down safely. So yes, I am glad that the Lithuanians have pooled their sovereignty in that respect.
As regards the school water fiasco, that was another example of the poor politicans we elect here. That decision was made here. My understanding is that the EU did not insist that the schools pay a water charge. They were agreeable to some arrangement where the cost would be borne by the government. You are faling into the same trap of deciding to blame the EU for the failing of the politicans we (Ireland) elected. Read here to learn more, and stop blaming the EU.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/02/05/story54358.asp
Ix0 -
Scofflaw, as I've said before - my main argument isn't that the EU WILL do something which is bad for Ireland or goes against the will of the Irish people, it's that it would be far harder to force the EU government to bend to the will of the people than it would be if it was the Irish government. Why? Because we, as the Irish people, only have the power (and a very loose power at that) over 13 seats out of almost 800. So even if we convince every Irish MEP to vote our way we still have no real power over what gets done. If it's in the Irish parliament, we, the Irish people, have the power to unseat every single one of the TDs, and therefore they must more closely follow the will of the people. Therefore it's not a question of whether the EU will force things on us more often than the Irish government - it's that if the EU passes something, it's far, far more difficult for us to halt it than it would be if it was a national government issue.
Again, I think we should even take a step farther than that in taking power from the national government and giving it to regional governments, that way the electorate have even more power over the politicians. The smaller the number of people in an election constituency, the more important it is for the politicians to listen to every one of them.
Also, I once again have to take issue with this whole talk of leaving the EU. why are you saying our only options are to "accept what the EU does or leave"? That is the EPITOME of why I say it is behaving undemocratically. The option SHOULD be that if the EU is not doing what the people it governs wants it to do, you change its direction. Not give up and leave the ship as soon as it takes a wrong turn. And if it was truly democratic, you wouldn't have to either accept it or leave.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »Scofflaw, as I've said before - my main argument isn't that the EU WILL do something which is bad for Ireland or goes against the will of the Irish people, it's that it would be far harder to force the EU government to bend to the will of the people than it would be if it was the Irish government. Why? Because we, as the Irish people, only have the power (and a very loose power at that) over 13 seats out of almost 800. So even if we convince every Irish MEP to vote our way we still have no real power over what gets done. If it's in the Irish parliament, we, the Irish people, have the power to unseat every single one of the TDs, and therefore they must more closely follow the will of the people. Therefore it's not a question of whether the EU will force things on us more often than the Irish government - it's that if the EU passes something, it's far, far more difficult for us to halt it than it would be if it was a national government issue.
I think we're back to the sky falling down again. The sky might fall down, it never has and there's no sign that it will, but we should all worry about it.0
:D 
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