Buyer beware !!

Tackleberry.

Went to pick up my sidelock from my local gunsmith during the week, he is a nice german man with all the old trade tricks he'd fix anything or make you a new one..... but we were talking guns and it came around to taking about the new stuff and he told me that alot of the new turkish shotguns that are coming into the country are not proof stamped.... he went further to say that fifty of these guns were bought by a german dealer that he knows (in Germany) who then sent them to his proof house (the Germans stick by the law) and out of that fifty, 38 Failed proof,he sent the whole lot back to Turkey with a NO DEAL NOTE..... load of sh*t i'm told. I know myself that there are some guns from Turkey, guns a lad might consider but i'm trying to make the point of checking that the gun is proof marked.
I suppose it will take for one of these guns to blow up in someone's face before it get's sorted, don't let it be you or anyone you know spread the word.

CHECK FOR PROOF MARKS.





.

meathstevie

I've owned one Turkish shotgun for a few months and I don't think I'll ever own one again. Pure muck.

elius

Im using a yildiz at the moment and am finding it ok.. No complants at all.... Never had a problem and does what its says on the tin.. Thats not to say i would rather like to get a berretta.. Was ylidiz mentioned in this...

pedroeibar

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Went to pick up my sidelock from my local gunsmith during the week, he is a nice german man with all the old trade tricks he'd fix anything or make you a new one..... but we were talking guns and it came around to taking about the new stuff and he told me that alot of the new turkish shotguns that are coming into the country are not proof stamped.... he went further to say that fifty of these guns were bought by a german dealer that he knows (in Germany) who then sent them to his proof house (the Germans stick by the law) and out of that fifty, 38 Failed proof,he sent the whole lot back to Turkey with a NO DEAL NOTE..... load of sh*t i'm told. I know myself that there are some guns from Turkey, guns a lad might consider but i'm trying to make the point of checking that the gun is proof marked.
I suppose it will take for one of these guns to blow up in someone's face before it get's sorted, don't let it be you or anyone you know spread the word.

CHECK FOR PROOF MARKS..

Sounds like BS to me. Is it not illegal in Ireland to sell a gun that is not in proof?
P

Tackleberry.

elius wrote: »

Im using a yildiz at the moment and am finding it ok.. No complants at all.... Never had a problem and does what its says on the tin.. Thats not to say i would rather like to get a berretta.. Was ylidiz mentioned in this...

no make's mentioned but i'd not be afraid of buying a yildiz like i said there are some turkish guns i'd recomend as a good place to start shooting with....but it was a comment of the gunsmith trying to keep me safe as i am considering a change, just taught i'd share his comment....i'd rather have the use of my eye's hands etc...as i'm sure others would.

Tackleberry.

pedroeibar wrote: »

Sounds like BS to me. Is it not illegal in Ireland to sell a gun that is not in proof?
P

everyone to there own......... But it ain't BS, leagal or not i don't know for sure taught it was required (these are brand new guns), but proof house's are there so that you can be asured that you are buying a quality firearm.Reckon its a bit like taking your life in your hands buying sh*t quality guns.

elius

Must look out for a proof mark on my yildiz,, Have the ****s up me now...

Cass

pedroeibar wrote: »

Sounds like BS to me. Is it not illegal in Ireland to sell a gun that is not in proof?
P

Jaysus. a lad comes on here to give a heads up and a bit of important information and you still get the ocassional begrudger. You know the type, bah, humbug down with this sort of thing.

Shooting people is illegal as is bank robbery and a hundred other different things but you can bet your bottom dollar they are and will be an ongoing occurance. So why not just accept the fact that it may be true, exercise a little caution and say thanks and leave it a that.

pedroeibar

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Went to pick up my sidelock from my local gunsmith during the week, he is a nice german man with all the old trade tricks he'd fix anything or make you a new one..... but we were talking guns and it came around to taking about the new stuff and he told me that alot of the new turkish shotguns that are coming into the country are not proof stamped.... he went further to say that fifty of these guns were bought by a german dealer that he knows (in Germany) who then sent them to his proof house (the Germans stick by the law) and out of that fifty, 38 Failed proof,he sent the whole lot back to Turkey with a NO DEAL NOTE..... load of sh*t i'm told. I know myself that there are some guns from Turkey, guns a lad might consider but i'm trying to make the point of checking that the gun is proof marked.
I suppose it will take for one of these guns to blow up in someone's face before it get's sorted, don't let it be you or anyone you know spread the word.

CHECK FOR PROOF MARKS.
.

Then we get

ezridax wrote: »

Jaysus. a lad comes on here to give a heads up and a bit of important information and you still get the ocassional begrudger. You know the type, bah, humbug down with this sort of thing.

Shooting people is illegal as is bank robbery and a hundred other different things but you can bet your bottom dollar they are and will be an ongoing occurance. So why not just accept the fact that it may be true, exercise a little caution and say thanks and leave it a that.

I’m not a begrudger, but this type of crap should not be let go unchallenged. (Also like the guy who on another post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670078 said its OK to bring your gun to the US, when he did not have a bull’s notion of what he was talking about)
I still maintain the original post is BS.
A guy posts a ramble about unnamed guns, an unnamed dealer, an unnamed dealer’s friend and unqualified crap on “Turkish” guns, qualifying it all by stating that “the Germans stick by the law.”
In Ireland there is an Act - the Firearms (Proofing) Act, 1968 – that prevents the sale of unproofed firearms. It also outlaws their import/export and gives the authorities the power to seize them if found here. Look at http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza20y1968.1.html What Irish dealer would risk a fine, jail, or both and probably lose his dealer’s license into the bargain were he to sell unproofed guns?
I’m all in favour of good information, but the only heads-up in this stuff is the poster’s, which is in a dark place.
P.

Sparks

The proofing act doesn't outlaw the importation of firearms without proofmarks; nor does it outlaw their sale. It says the Minister may make an order to prohibit the sale of a firearm without a proof mark; but the only order made under that act, S.I. No. 65/1969, didn't prohibit their sale, it just set the standards for proofing and the regulations for proofing. Since the proofing institute wasn't started up (or fell over, I'm not sure which), the whole thing is moot anyways.

In other words, yes, it's legal to sell a firearm in Ireland today without a proof mark.

Caveat emptor takes on a whole new meaning at that point, doesn't it?

rrpc

In addition as we have a much broader definition of a firearm than they have in (say Germany), you'd be hard pressed to find proofmarks on paintball markers, airsoft guns above 1 joule, moderators, infra red sights, blank firing pistols, air pistols, air rifles........

Lots of dealers going to do jail time methinks :rolleyes:

dbar

I also know the dealer in question as he also mentioned this in passing while we were having a chat a while back.
Lets qualify it a bit:
As far as I know, (and I could be wrong on this) he is the only time-served gunsmith in the republic. FAS dont do gunsmith apprentiships - right? Served his time with Kriko as far as I can remember. Knows his stuff inside out - including proofing
Reason he doesnt like his details published is for security reasons - his choice.

moose112

On my second yildiz and not a problem, two friends have yildiz also and no complaints either.

A lot of people look down there nose at these guns almost snobbery:D

elius

moose112 wrote: »

On my second yildiz and not a problem, two friends have yildiz also and no complaints either.

A lot of people look down there nose at these guns almost snobbery:D

Correct and right..:D:D

dbar

Incorrect and not right.
Dont confuse snobbery with safety. The same gentleman has shown me baikels that he would consider an excellent purchase, he looks at firearms from a technical viewpoint not at the badge on the side.
The information is there, use it or dont, but dont fudge with something else it because you dont like what you are hearing.

rowa

you can't really go by where the gun is made , a lot of the medium grade 1911 pistols are made in the phillipines and are fine, some of the owners of said pistols would be shocked to know that the frames or slides are made there , i had a squires bingham rifle back in pre celtic tiger days , it was all i could afford and it was fine , a tough little gun that done the job well ,
the baikel guns were always good value for money and was my first shotgun , the single shot break open rifles look good too at around €200 , but even then people were always repeating untrue scare stories about them .

as ireland has no proof house if some importer gets a consignment of unproofed guns whats he to do ?

elius

dbar wrote: »

Incorrect and not right.
Dont confuse snobbery with safety. The same gentleman has shown me baikels that he would consider an excellent purchase, he looks at firearms from a technical viewpoint not at the badge on the side.
The information is there, use it or dont, but dont fudge with something else it because you dont like what you are hearing.

Look at my previous posts its was nothing to do with saftey if i new my gun was dangerous i wouldnt have it near the house....

rowa

i remember about 15 years ago if not more that winchester had a new over and under shotgun that came out to great fanfare , big adverts in the shooting magazines etc , they had only came out when they were recalled and as far as i know they were never returned and the gun was dropped from winchesters line up.
so if they can get it wrong anyone can

jjmcnulty

I think people should just take the advice to be carefull when buying a gun and check if it is proofed if u want a safe gun over one that might not be safe

but proofing dose not always mean that the gun is safe cause who is to say that a gun is test fired X times when being proofed and then u get it and on the X+2 shots the barrel blows in your face.:eek:

S**t Happens:D

But a proofed gun has been check and in probability is safer!

DMZ

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Went to pick up my sidelock from my local gunsmith during the week, he is a nice german man with all the old trade tricks he'd fix anything or make you a new one..... but we were talking guns and it came around to taking about the new stuff and he told me that alot of the new turkish shotguns that are coming into the country are not proof stamped.... he went further to say that fifty of these guns were bought by a german dealer that he knows (in Germany) who then sent them to his proof house (the Germans stick by the law) and out of that fifty, 38 Failed proof,he sent the whole lot back to Turkey with a NO DEAL NOTE..... load of sh*t i'm told. I know myself that there are some guns from Turkey, guns a lad might consider but i'm trying to make the point of checking that the gun is proof marked.
I suppose it will take for one of these guns to blow up in someone's face before it get's sorted, don't let it be you or anyone you know spread the word.

CHECK FOR PROOF MARKS.





.

Might surprise you to know that no gun coming from the good old USA is proofed, why well because technology has moved on and the proofing is unnecessary in modern firearms.

rowa

DMZ wrote: »

Might surprise you to know that no gun coming from the good old USA is proofed, why well because technology has moved on and the proofing is unnecessary in modern firearms.

Thats what the americans say but it seems to be a bit foolhardy to me and its what ford in america said about the pinto and we all know what happened there.
It only takes one tiny crack in the barrel or action and the gun is a bomb , for the sake of a proof test which only takes a few minutes and could save someones life ,

The proof house in birmingham has a display of guns that didn't make it, so its there for a reason .

BornToKill

rowa wrote: »

Thats what the americans say but it seems to be a bit foolhardy to me

There's a well known American manufacturer whose brand new guns regularly fail proofing in the UK.

Sparks

DMZ wrote: »

Might surprise you to know that no gun coming from the good old USA is proofed, why well because technology has moved on and the proofing is unnecessary in modern firearms.

We don't need to test, the CAD program says it's good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYUrqdUyEpI

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar wrote: »

Then we get

I’m not a begrudger, but this type of crap should not be let go unchallenged. (Also like the guy who on another post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670078 said its OK to bring your gun to the US, when he did not have a bull’s notion of what he was talking about)

THATS FIGHTIN TALK Mister!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:
I just happen to be a US citizen and for your info YOU ARE VERY VERY WRONG!!!
1]INS does Not give two Fks as to what you bring into the US.
Their job is to make sure illegal aliens dont get into the USA.If anyone is intrested in you bringing guns into the US it is either ATFE or US customs.[Near enough one and the same]
Thats funny that you had this problem,I and my German relatives have never had any trouble going hunting over there as all we required was the invites and proof of going hunting...Never had any of the BS happen to us that you mention.Nor recently my colleuge who went for a firearms training course over in Florida within the last month recive any outlandish problems ,and was actually asked why he didnt bring his personal firearm with him.
Dont know what officals you dealt with..But any I've ever dealt with were the paragon of courtsey,and knowledge..Not to mind efficency.
Thats from local law enforcement up to ATFE..
Unless of course ,you were living on either of the LEFT coasts,or some gun banner state like NYC,or DC or Kennedy country?

If your gun gets damaged..SUE the airport and airline!!Surely you must even know that after living there a short while???,or just buy a pelibox gun case.If it is tough enough for the US army,it is good enough to deal with some Peon baggage handler with an attitude problem


2]Your point on not being allowed to own a firearm in the US.Unless you are a citizen,or have a green card,you cant do diddley on firearms ownership,purchasing or otherwise ..You can certainly open a bank account and own property.BUT that does not entitle you to own guns there.Or do a few other things ,like vote etc..

3] Ever hear of recipocal acknowledgement between the States??This applies more to concealed carry permits,but also to certain hunting permits.IE the Alaskan hunting liscense is recognised in Florida for some reason.The only place this is a hassle is if you are driving across different states and you dont observe the transport rules of firearms.IE keeping your rifle in a locked gunslip rather than in a pickup truck rack.

4]Read para 16,17 of your link to the ATF form..It describes exactly what "non immigrant aliens"can do to satisfy the import and reasons for bringing the gun and ammo to the USA.
BTW US govt depts are REQUIRED by Federal law to answer any paperwork within 21days[calender,not working] from date of recipt.Anyways,if you have booked up with a hunting outfit or target competition,they usually handle the ATFE paperwork.6/8 weeks is about the norm for a Fed backround check for a Class3 Fullauto or silencer purchase.
I notice you say you "think" alot in this post and critique others about not having the facts.But yours are pretty shakey too.:rolleyes:
Onwards

still maintain the original post is BS.
A guy posts a ramble about unnamed guns, an unnamed dealer, an unnamed dealer’s friend and unqualified crap on “Turkish” guns, qualifying it all by stating that “the Germans stick by the law.”

Lukily they do..As in Germany all firearms must be proved before they are sold.Turkish guns can be put together like Spanish guns by guilds and then sold by a brand name.does it really matter?The US had that with the famous dont buy the "Chink" M14,[Norinco 's copy of the Springfield M14 in semi]claims like the reciver was not heat treated properly,bent barrels etc were largely true.But because they were so cheap people still bought them along with the AK semi copies.Did anyone go and say well,it is the guns from the QUi long production plant in Guongdai???Nope! it was ALL chinese guns were bad.

In Ireland there is an Act - the Firearms (Proofing) Act, 1968 – that prevents the sale of unproofed firearms. It also outlaws their import/export and gives the authorities the power to seize them if found here. Look at http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/zza20y1968.1.html What Irish dealer would risk a fine, jail, or both and probably lose his dealer’s license into the bargain were he to sell unproofed guns?

For your info,we dont HAVE a proofing house here anymore!It closed up in 1974[?]And by and large the only guns that have no proof marks here are guns from the USA![Apart from those which are directly imported to the UK/German distributors where they must be tested by these countries own laws before they can be sold] We dont worrytoo much about them blowing up,seeing that they come from the most litigatious country on the planet.:rolleyes:
OTOH el cheapo yokes coming in from without the EU borders,are abit more of a concern.Seeing there isnt much of a comeback there in product liability.:rolleyes:.
Personally I would take a qualified German gunsmiths word in the flesh or Net quicker than somthing made in a plant with a mud floor somwhere in the Turkish hinterland.

I’m all in favour of good information, but the only heads-up in this stuff is the poster’s, which is in a dark place.

Well like everything in the net take it with caution.Especially those who go to personal attacks and critique the most,while thinking ,or knowing the least.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

dbar

elius wrote: »

Look at my previous posts its was nothing to do with saftey if i new my gun was dangerous i wouldnt have it near the house....

Are you for real? Do you actually know why a gun is proofed?

dbar

DMZ wrote: »

Might surprise you to know that no gun coming from the good old USA is proofed, why well because technology has moved on and the proofing is unnecessary in modern firearms.

I cant believe there are people out there that actually believe this....

rrpc

dbar wrote: »

I cant believe there are people out there that actually believe this....

People in general appear to believe hearsay and opinion more than proven facts. It seems it's too much trouble to actually read stuff and understand it. :rolleyes:

Far easier to let some other idiot to do the reading and understanding.

pedroeibar

Sparks wrote: »

The proofing act doesn't outlaw the importation of firearms without proofmarks; nor does it outlaw their sale. It says the Minister may make an order to prohibit the sale of a firearm without a proof mark; but the only order made under that act, S.I. No. 65/1969, didn't prohibit their sale, it just set the standards for proofing and the regulations for proofing. Since the proofing institute wasn't started up (or fell over, I'm not sure which), the whole thing is moot anyways.

In other words, yes, it's legal to sell a firearm in Ireland today without a proof mark.

Caveat emptor takes on a whole new meaning at that point, doesn't it?

OK. I started much of the debate on Proof so, Tackleberry, I have to eat some humble pie on the sale of un-proofed firearms. :o:o
That post scares the living BJ out of me. We have a law that was enacted but the really important bit i.e. gun proof, never was properly enacted? You can sell nothing here without a safety mark on it, even a bale of wool has to be labelled “Not fit for human consumption” (true) yet un-proofed guns are readily and legally available!
Only in Ireland!
P.

rrpc

pedroeibar wrote: »

OK. I started much of the debate on Proof so, Tackleberry, I have to eat some humble pie on the sale of un-proofed firearms. :o:o
That post scares the living BJ out of me. We have a law that was enacted but the really important bit i.e. gun proof, never was properly enacted? You can sell nothing here without a safety mark on it, even a bale of wool has to be labelled “Not fit for human consumption” (true) yet un-proofed guns are readily and legally available!
Only in Ireland!
P.

It's not quite as simple as that Pedro. We don't really have a firearms manufacturing industry (apart from a couple of specialised guys who assemble more than manufacture) and so there would be very little business for a proof house. Realistically, you'd expect the country where the firearms are manufactured to do the proofing.

pedroeibar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

THATS FIGHTIN TALK Mister!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:
I just happen to be a US citizen and for your info YOU ARE VERY VERY WRONG!!!
1]INS does Not give two Fks as to what you bring into the US.
Their job is to make sure illegal aliens dont get into the USA.If anyone is intrested in you bringing guns into the US it is either ATFE or US customs.[Near enough one and the same]
Thats funny that you had this problem,I and my German relatives have never had any trouble going hunting over there as all we required was the invites and proof of going hunting...Never had any of the BS happen to us that you mention.Nor recently my colleuge who went for a firearms training course over in Florida within the last month recive any outlandish problems ,and was actually asked why he didnt bring his personal firearm with him.
Dont know what officals you dealt with..But any I've ever dealt with were the paragon of courtsey,and knowledge..Not to mind efficency.
Thats from local law enforcement up to ATFE..
Unless of course ,you were living on either of the LEFT coasts,or some gun banner state like NYC,or DC or Kennedy country?

If your gun gets damaged..SUE the airport and airline!!Surely you must even know that after living there a short while???,or just buy a pelibox gun case.If it is tough enough for the US army,it is good enough to deal with some Peon baggage handler with an attitude problem


2]Your point on not being allowed to own a firearm in the US.Unless you are a citizen,or have a green card,you cant do diddley on firearms ownership,purchasing or otherwise ..You can certainly open a bank account and own property.BUT that does not entitle you to own guns there.Or do a few other things ,like vote etc..

3] Ever hear of recipocal acknowledgement between the States??This applies more to concealed carry permits,but also to certain hunting permits.IE the Alaskan hunting liscense is recognised in Florida for some reason.The only place this is a hassle is if you are driving across different states and you dont observe the transport rules of firearms.IE keeping your rifle in a locked gunslip rather than in a pickup truck rack.

4]Read para 16,17 of your link to the ATF form..It describes exactly what "non immigrant aliens"can do to satisfy the import and reasons for bringing the gun and ammo to the USA.
BTW US govt depts are REQUIRED by Federal law to answer any paperwork within 21days[calender,not working] from date of recipt.Anyways,if you have booked up with a hunting outfit or target competition,they usually handle the ATFE paperwork.6/8 weeks is about the norm for a Fed backround check for a Class3 Fullauto or silencer purchase.
I notice you say you "think" alot in this post and critique others about not having the facts.But yours are pretty shakey too.:rolleyes:

By quoting Form ATF F 6NIA at me you underline the fact that your original post was wrong. You add to that by saying

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyways,if you have booked up with a hunting outfit or target competition, they usually handle the ATFE paperwork.

As a US Citizen the rules applied to you are quite different. Any foreigner needs the above form. You did not, and that omission is more than careless because any foreigner landing in the US without correct paperwork most likely will be arrested and his gun confiscated. That was and is my point.
The rest of your post is immaterial, but (a) it is invariably known in the US shooting community as the BATF, not the ATFE, (b) I said the INS were tough, never equated them with BATF; (c) reciprocity between states usually is limited to such things as driving licences. The reason Florida has reciprocity with most States is to aid their winter tourist industry. (d)Going off on a rant about CCW, “Left” states etc., adds nothing; (e) there is a value limit on cargo so suing the airline is a waste of time. That is why most Irish shooters who value their guns go by sea to the UK, rather than air. (f) Spanish guild guns? Spain has an official proof house since 1844 and makers marks.(g) 21 days to respond - yeah, you get a latter on day 21 saying thank you for your letter, we are processing your request.
enough.

pedroeibar

rrpc wrote: »

It's not quite as simple as that Pedro. We don't really have a firearms manufacturing industry (apart from a couple of specialised guys who assemble more than manufacture) and so there would be very little business for a proof house. Realistically, you'd expect the country where the firearms are manufactured to do the proofing.

Why not limit the import market to those who are registered with CIP?

When I was checking out the Proof Act it appears that it was prompted by a plan to start an arms manufacturing plant in the Midlands. The IIRS (now Eolas?) would have the facilities and reputation if we wanted it done here. I certainly would not buy a gun that had not been proofed by a CIP member.
P