I miss the old Feedback.

IronMan

As a lurker of the highest order, I rarely rise above the parapet. But as usual, I agree with Karl.

Steve

Karl, you have a good point and wish I could thank your post.

I've written many replies to this thread but they had angry words do I refrained from posting them.

Suffice to say that I'd like to see a place where the community can speak it's mind with reasonable argument without fear of reproach.

Jonathan

Boston wrote: »

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now.

This tbh.

The last such thread I remember in Feedback was the Helix thread (The Economist's thread on the repercussions of the ban iirc). After that, thanks was removed and all threads locked/Helpdesk'd after 4-5 posts.

Not very conducive to feedback.

DeVore

Actually VERY conducive to feedback... not very conducive to blood sports.

Sorry but Karl makes the comment that it isnt "for the best"... that rather depends on your definition of "for the best".

I'm sorry if Feedback isnt as "amusing" for you guys, its not meant to be. Its not and never was meant to be a place where the lions and the christians fought. It should be somewhere people can come and drop a suggestion/feedback/comment without being jumped on and that wasnt it.

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
They have 0 interest in the way the community is left, thats all simply left to me and the other admins.

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

But feedback should be a more sedate place then it was and I'm happier that it is. If you have genuine feedback, I'm listening, I read it every day.

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

DeV.

Time Magazine

DeVore wrote: »

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

Link, link.

With the utmost respect DeV, I think there are more serious problems that need to be addressed here. I'm sure you're aware how upset some of the moderators are and, without going into details here, that you've had over-rule something that other admin had rejected even on appeal.

Boards' feedback mechanisms have always been fairly shite, and I mean no disrespect when I say that. It was not for want of trying on ye're behalf -- there have to be compromises that upset some people. But at the moment, from where I'm standing, as fair and as good as the current system may seem on paper, Boards' feedback mechanisms have never sucked so much balls. If the mods are upset with them, I have no idea how those even more on the outside are feeling.

Perhaps they're just growing pains. But these concerns are not something that can be passed off easily.

Personally, I would suggest a moderated Feedback forum that's moderated and yes, I know that it's been tried before.

Handsome Bob

You know it's weird. There are times when I see a thread in Helpdesk where I feel I could contribute valuably to the case being put forward. It's frustrating because in the old feedback I would of had the platform to make that case. However on the other hand there are times when I see threads in Helpdesk and I am glad the old Feedback is gone. For example, when Sharpshooter was made a mod in AH she had an awful time with constant threads made about her in Helpdesk. Modding is a tough job, and modding AH is pretty much a case of being thrown into the definitive deep end of modding. So I was delighted that the old lynch style feedback was gone in that case.

Ultimately it really is a catch 22. Then again Feedback can still have a purpose, all you have to do is make your complaint about the forum more so than about a specific mod. :pac:

orestes

The end of old feedback was the end of boards, in so many ways.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote: »

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
DeV.

I didn't mean that the DAFT guys influenced the owners/admins in the running of boards. What I meant was that since boards.ie became more of an official commercial enterprise with legal team, offices, shareholders, employees that procedures have had to change. It's not necessarily a bad thing in some ways, it just changes how things are run.

More and more media attention too results in the old type of feedback forum giving a very bad image to boards.ie as a serious website for Ireland.
While I really enjoyed the lolcats and gathering cards and fight the power threads, they looked pretty bad to non-boards people.

Karl Hungus

DeVore wrote: »

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

You are greatly misrepresenting my point and what I liked about the old Feedback, Dev. I think when I opened my post saying that the lolcats were sometimes overkill, and that arguments went off on tangents, I'd think people would recognize that it was not the bitching and fighting that I miss. To infer that I or others here liked it just because it was "amusing", is either missing the point completely, or just brushing off what's being said. And that's a shame that the admins would ignore the points being put forward.

Lolcats exist numerous other places on boards, so does bitching and fighting, and there's plenty of amusement to be found anywhere on boards, and none of those have been lost. I can't miss something that hasn't gone away. And I can't put it any more clearly, I don't miss old Feedback because of lolcats or because it was amusing. I don't like this "get your lulz elsewhere" fob-off, it's just side-stepping/ignoring the real point, and focusing only on the bad aspects of the forum of old.

No, what I specifically said I missed, was the sense that it was boards as a community that was responding to feedback, that the community; users, mods and admins alike, were in charge of feedback, and it was community responses that were given. That's what I miss, that's what boards has lost, and that's what I believe has created more of a rift between admins and others on boards. I think Boston has summed things up incredibly well here:

Boston wrote: »

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now. I've seen a series of moderators quiet in the last few weeks and there's not a word about it here.

Feedback was a place where you took your problem to the community. It wasn't taking up an issue with a bureaucratic body of admins by way of a tightly controlled system, it was directly petitioning the people. Boston is exactly correct when he says that a user could gain support and overturn decisions with that support. And I think threads like this are a perfect example, Pighead appeals to the community, and is redeemed by the community. It was very much trial by community, everyone had a say, and if someone came along full of hot air and a problem they caused themselves, it was users who told this person to get off the soapbox because we're not listening to your nonsense.

Helpdesk was something I saw as an alternative; you can either take up an issue with boards, and have boards make a judgment, or you could take up an issue with the admins and only the admins can make a judgment. It was something that gave the aggrieved user options with how they could proceed. Now it seems as boards has been locked out of the process, the populous has had it's voice silenced, it's power cut like Samson's mullet.

Yeah, as Dudess points out, there were people who just seemed to like to have a go at a user who started a complaint, and that's certainly something we can do without. But even with the many, many problems, Feedback of old was somewhat of an equalizer, giving Joe-user and mod alike powers comparable to that of wonderboy. That was something extremely special, it was boards governing itself in a sense, and we've lost out on that. We've lost the sense of community actually having power.

I hope now that everything is crystal clear about what this thread is about?

tallaght01

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond. To the vast majority of boards users, I would imagine, it was just a few punters getting their jollies by slagging off kids.

therecklessone

tallaght01 wrote: »

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond.

Yep.

At least one of the recent boards crises escalated with help from Feedback.

Wibbs

tallaght01 wrote: »

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond. To the vast majority of boards users, I would imagine, it was just a few punters getting their jollies by slagging off kids.

True. It needed change, but maybe this isn't it. I also agree with you with regard to the regulars, but the lurkers who are part of the community looked on and took something from that. In the past many times you would be right and it was a lol fest. I think in any feedback forum(or any forum) you're going to get the regulars, but I also think if feedback is a good forum, the lurkers will come away with a better feeling about the place.

dr.bollocko

I think a couple of forums have incorporated feedback systems onto their own fora. A big feedback sticky or similar. Perhaps that would be something some ofthe busier communities could go with.

Boston

DeVore wrote: »

Actually VERY conducive to feedback... not very conducive to blood sports.

Sorry but Karl makes the comment that it isnt "for the best"... that rather depends on your definition of "for the best".

I'm sorry if Feedback isnt as "amusing" for you guys, its not meant to be. Its not and never was meant to be a place where the lions and the christians fought. It should be somewhere people can come and drop a suggestion/feedback/comment without being jumped on and that wasnt it.

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
They have 0 interest in the way the community is left, thats all simply left to me and the other admins.

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

But feedback should be a more sedate place then it was and I'm happier that it is. If you have genuine feedback, I'm listening, I read it every day.

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

DeV.

Somewhere between the changing of feedback and helpdesk the users choice of going to the community to look for support was removed. Dress it up whatever way you want, that's the bottom line. Now you want this forum to be an actual site feedback forum, that's fine but wheres the problem with having a forum where a bunch of users can get together and say, actually I don't agree with that moderating decision. Someone along the road it was either consciously or otherwise decided that these matters are best aired in private.

One things for sure, you never see another poke forum debacle.

dr.bollocko

Boston wrote: »

Somewhere between the changing of feedback and helpdesk the users choice of going to the community to look for support was removed. Dress it up whatever way you want, that's the bottom line. Now you want this forum to be an actual site feedback forum, that's fine but wheres the problem with having a forum where a bunch of users can get together and say, actually I don't agree with that moderating decision. Someone along the road it was either consciously or otherwise decided that these matters are best aired in private.

One things for sure, you never see another poke forum debacle.

You forgot to mention the boards.ie LTD shtick.

Boston

I don't think you're even a real doctor 0_o

Fysh

Given the number of people who've had arguments about whether they should be allowed to use boards to call Bertie Ahern a liar in the middle of the Mahon Tribunal, or about whether they should be allowed to claim that all Roma Gypsies are thieving scum, or discuss sources for getting films & tv shows from their american cousins, do we really needa place where an aggrieved user can request support from the populace at large?

I always understood the intent of feedback was to provide a venue for considered discussion about the functioning of the site as a whole; the more that appeals to the populace at large are allowed, the greater the chance that "considered discussion" flies out the window as people get sympathisers based on popularity rather than having a point, which is an awful idea. You've only got to look at how out of hand karma-whoring got before the whole karma mechanism was rescinded for proof of this kind of behaviour.

I get the idea - that it should work in a similar way to a class-action lawsuit - but I don't think it's feasible. Given how badly it could have been considered to have worked in the past, I don't see what useful outcome is foreseen for this thread.

AckwelFoley

call me when i can post lolcats.

Dyr

Why not create a feedback forum called "the feedback forum where some dick mod will snigger at you in a matter that would get you you permabanned if you dared to do it in one of their forums"

Could be a winner.:)

Dudess

Yeah, despite the indignant objections to accusations of "mod conspiracy" (there isn't one - really there isn't) the jeering and ganging up that occurred in old Feedback didn't exactly help dispel the notion - but to be fair, it wasn't only mods who were guilty of it.

Boston

Who on earth could dubes be referring to? Sounds like's she's a bit bitter over all the stick she got due to her disastrous modding of after hours. I'm not surprised a mod of her ilk would want to lock down dissenting opinions seen as shes been on the receiving end of so many.

John Mason

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, despite the indignant objections to accusations of "mod conspiracy" (there isn't one - really there isn't) the jeering and ganging up that occurred in old Feedback didn't exactly help dispel the notion - but to be fair, it wasn't only mods who were guilty of it.

lol at the "no mod conspiracy" statement

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

seriously do mod's actually think that normal users are complete idiots ??

anyway that is completely off point. i liked the old feedback as "normal user" got a chance to back each other up when clearly mods just back each other up and get to treat the rest of us like the irritation that we apparently are to the smooth running of the site.

feedback, i think should have polls and the whole community gets to vote as to whether the OP is correct or not a decision gets made on the basis of the poll results.

now, mod's feel free to rip my post apart and probably ban me or whatever.

dr.bollocko

irishbird wrote: »

lol at the "no mod conspiracy" statement

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

seriously do mod's actually think that normal users are complete idiots ??

anyway that is completely off point. i liked the old feedback as "normal user" got a chance to back each other up when clearly mods just back each other up and get to treat the rest of us like the irritation that we apparently are to the smooth running of the site.

feedback, i think should have polls and the whole community gets to vote as to whether the OP is correct or not a decision gets made on the basis of the poll results.

now, mod's feel free to rip my post apart and probably ban me or whatever.

Heh. Nice. You're actually asking for a mod to come in and rip apart your bile. So OK. I'll bite.
Most good mods have the posters opinions at heart and their own community in mind rather than covering their asses.
No amount of your cranky LOL LOL LOL mods are mean crap is going to change that.
A poll is a completely arbitrary and abusable system. A smart troll will re-reg to change the stats. Or PM likeminded souls with a grudge against a mod to change the figures. Maybe posters who think a mod is right won't see or vote in a poll. It's a nonsense.
I've seen mods ripped apart on feedback in the "old" days. Sometimes completely unfairly. Sometimes the posting community was in the right. The current system needs change but asking a bunch of users to vote on a decision is possibly the worst idea for a change in feedback I have ever heard. Ever.

Wibbs

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Heh. Nice. You're actually asking for a mod to come in and rip apart your bile. So OK. I'll bite.
Most good mods have the posters opinions at heart and their own community in mind rather than covering their asses.
No amount of your cranky LOL LOL LOL mods are mean crap is going to change that.

+1000 and if Irishbird thinks there's a mod conspiracy she needs to get out more or install the tinfoil hat, because I can categorically guarantee there isn't one. There are some mods I disagree with quite strongly and they disagree with me. Same goes for some users and indeed some admins and long may it continue so long as civility is maintained. I don't care whether I or anyone else is believed on this point or not TBH, but that's been my experience of this site, as a user and a mod.

Talk of mod conspiracy is about as welcome as a boil on jockeys bum and as about as useful to any debate on feedback.

Dudess

I see the getting personal has been resorted to, ironically...

Boston wrote: »

Who on earth could dudess be referring to?

Oh not just you Boston, all the others who liked to gang up too.

Sounds like's she's a bit bitter over all the stick she got due to her disastrous modding of after hours.

Strange that. I remember getting quite a bit of positive feedback when I stopped moderating After Hours (of my own accord) - "fair" and "even-handed" seemed to be the most regularly used words... And that was my intention from day one.
Sure I had my detractors - as have most mods of high-traffic fora.

I'm not surprised a mod of her ilk would want to lock down dissenting opinions seen as shes been on the receiving end of so many.

Ganging up on people who want to make a point reasonably is the exact opposite of dissenting...

irishbird wrote: »

lol at the "no mod conspiracy" statement

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

seriously do mod's actually think that normal users are complete idiots ??

Do you honestly think there is a deliberate strategy among mods to conspire against non mods? If at times it appears mods are singing off the same hymn-sheet, it's because they know where each other is coming from - doesn't mean they like each other.

i liked the old feedback as "normal user" got a chance to back each other up when clearly mods just back each other up and get to treat the rest of us like the irritation that we apparently are to the smooth running of the site.

Plenty of non mods backed up mods also, irishbird. You're tarring all mods with the same brush, and making it look as if non mods weren't at all complicit when things got ugly around here.

My name is URL

Boston wrote: »

Who on earth could dubes be referring to? Sounds like's she's a bit bitter over all the stick she got due to her disastrous modding of after hours. I'm not surprised a mod of her ilk would want to lock down dissenting opinions seen as shes been on the receiving end of so many.

Maybe the new Feedback system is better after all. If your post is anything to go by the old one would have sucked bigtime

You can always try to be civil, even if you are demeaning somebodies ability

Boston

Dudess wrote: »

Strange that. I remember getting quite a bit of positive feedback when I stopped moderating After Hours

I remember being quiet pleased by that as well.

sceptre

Boston wrote: »

Who on earth could dubes be referring to? Sounds like's she's a bit bitter over all the stick she got due to her disastrous modding of after hours. I'm not surprised a mod of her ilk would want to lock down dissenting opinions seen as shes been on the receiving end of so many.

That's not particularly fair or conducive to a reasoned discussion. Knock it off.

Kinetic^

irishbird wrote: »

lol at the "no mod conspiracy" statement

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

seriously do mod's actually think that normal users are complete idiots ??

anyway that is completely off point. i liked the old feedback as "normal user" got a chance to back each other up when clearly mods just back each other up and get to treat the rest of us like the irritation that we apparently are to the smooth running of the site.

feedback, i think should have polls and the whole community gets to vote as to whether the OP is correct or not a decision gets made on the basis of the poll results.

now, mod's feel free to rip my post apart and probably ban me or whatever.

LOL ol OLo Lol oL Ol OLO L OL OLolOLOoOLOOL OLLOL OLO LOL :rolleyes:

There is not a moderator conspiracy. Just like regular users not all moderators see eye to eye on a lot of things. The one thing that they have in common is that they moderate so a lot of mods can empathise with other mods when they come across difficult users or "complete idiots" as you put it.

Boston

I'm sorry sceptre, I should of course have used vague innuendo.

I didn't like the way some mentally unhinged female moderators used their gender to garner support from the sex starved fan boys on this forum in the past and I'm glad its no longer an option.

I think the assertion by certain admins that the new feedback format was brought in protect the end user is laughable, in truth it was brought in as a result of the fall out when a bunch of card playing moderators got their panties in a bunch, quit and where told off for it by users whom they felt shouldn't have an input. Net result, no feedback is welcome on topics A to F. There is no debate, conversation or discussion here. Unnamed administrator listens but feels no need to act.

Lets examine this "To protect the end user" argument. In the past the end user had a choice, they didn't have to go to feedback they could go to helpdesk. Every single person who started a thread here chose to do so in full knowledge that they had the help desk route open to them. Where are all the users saying "Jee guys, thanks for protecting me from my own stupidity, these new restrictions are great". No where, because they don't exist.

The same people who where previously ripped to pieces are over on helpdesk demaoning the fact that's its just them against the administrators. How can a user get a fair deal when they can't garner support? Sounds familiar no?

Lets examine this "It made it impossible to give real feedback". Wow, the user complainst where blocking out the actually feedback threads. Perhaps you should split it up the forum? Nah, we can only aford to create 20 new forums this month. Seriously, wtf.

Be honest, at some point unamed administrator decided that perhaps it wasn't a great idea to let users like myself have an input when the **** hit the fan. That we weren't conducsive to clam resonlution of problems. Thats the actual reason why if you have a problem with something it has to go in helpdesk.

Not that it would matter anyway, any serious discussion of boards policy would more then likely be simply deleted.