Has the game changed over the last few years??

VEGAS NIGHTS

I remember going into card clubs five years ago and the starting stack for a €50 freezeout was around 3 or 4K. I also remember the 1st 2-day poker game VN ran around the same time (day one in Heaven night club, Blanchardstown and day 2 in the Anglers Rest for anyone who was there:D). The start stack was 10K with 1 hour blinds. At that time this was a massive start stack and blind-structure.

It seems most games today have moved on from this considerably and I'm not sure that this is nesessarily a good thing. When you went to a €50 freezeout back then it had a 3 or 4K stack the pressure was on early to play good poker. And that pressure continued throughout the whole game. Now even pub games are starting with 10K stacks and more. What are you supposed to do with 10K in the early levels? Blinds are 25/50 and you raise 3 or 4 big blinds... you get at least 4 callers. The combinations of hands that you are up against is so vast it's very difficult to know where you are.

Was the standard of play required to win higher in the merrion or the fitz back then. Was it not a better more intense game? Has the "patience" part of the game taken over from the "skillfull play" part of the game.

In VN I have had to change to these big 10K stacks in pub games because that is what my competitors are doing and that is what players are comparing our games to so I need to be equall. I guess I do it because I have to but I don't agree with it.

I think a game with a 5K start stack with 20/25min blinds would be a far better game than a 10K stack with 15min blinds. Or for a 2-day game an 8K stack with 1-hour blinds would be a better game than a 15K stack with 30 or 40min blinds

Any thoughts on this? I know some people here will be quite critical of this but please be civil in your replys.

N

ianmc38

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote: »

I remember going into card clubs five years ago and the starting stack for a €50 freezeout was around 3 or 4K. I also remember the 1st 2-day poker game VN ran around the same time (day one in Heaven night club, Blanchardstown and day 2 in the Anglers Rest). The start stack was 10K with 1 hour blinds. At that time this was a massive start stack and blind-structure.

It seems most games today have moved on from this considerably and I'm not sure that this is nesessarily a good thing. When you went to a €50 freezeout back then it had a 3 or 4K stack the pressure was on early to play good poker. And that pressure continued throughout the whole game. Now even pub games are starting with 10K stacks and more. What are you supposed to do with 10K in the early levels? Blinds are 25/50 and you raise 3 or 4 big blinds... you get at least 4 callers. The combinations of hands that you are up against is so vast it's very difficult to know where you are.

Was the standard of play required to win higher in the merrion or the fitz back then. Was it not a better more intense game? Has the "patience" part of the game taken over from the "skillfull play" part of the game.

In VN I have had to change to these big 10K stacks in pub games because that is what my competitors are doing and that is what players are comparing our games to so I need to be equall. I guess I do it because I have to but I don't agree with it.

I think a game with a 4 or 5K start stack with 20/25min blinds would be a far better game than a 10K stack with 15min blinds. Or for a 2-day game an 8K stack with 1-hour blinds would be a better game than a 15K stack with 30 or 40min blinds

Any thoughts on this? I know some people here will be quite critical of this but please be civil in your replys.

N

Well shorter clocks and less chips have a much lower correlation with skillful play than bigger stacks and longer blind levels, regardless of whether it is more favorable to tight players.

VEGAS NIGHTS

ianmc38 wrote: »

Well shorter clocks and less chips have a much lower correlation with skillful play than bigger stacks and longer blind levels, regardless of whether it is more favorable to tight players.

Hey Ian, long time no see... hope all is well with you.

I'm suggesting shorter stacks but with longer blind levels

ianmc38

But the shallower the stacks the higher the variance and the less room for truly skillful poker. It's much more difficult to pull off big bluffs or even things like 3betting or 4betting light with shallower stacks as in a tournament you'll be risking a huge % of your chips. When you have a bigger stack there's a lot more room to maneuver

tylerdurden94

Im not sure if you have been following this thread, http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055657968

Its to do with the structure of next years IO, i think its a great read with alot of great points put back and forth by both sides and i will think it will give you an idea of where people stand on "has the game changed"

Danny.

Dub13

Surly a pub game has to be over by closing time ether way so the starting stack is irrelevant,I have heard about these pub games with 10k starting stack and always just assumed near the end they just skip blind levels to get it finished up by closing time.You would be doing well to get a game with 400,000 chips in play run off in 5 hours (assuming 40 players and starting at 20:00)

I don't play pub games so I am not sure but thats what I assume has to happen.

VEGAS NIGHTS

tylerdurden94 wrote: »

Im not sure if you have been following this thread, http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055657968

Its to do with the structure of next years IO, i think its a great read with alot of great points put back and forth by both sides and i will think it will give you an idea of where people stand on "has the game changed"

Danny.

Cheers Danny,

I hadn't read that thread before and just read it from start to finnish.... very interesting.

I see a lot of new players taking up the game during our weekly pub games. They come in and see other players winning big pots with their 8,5s against AK and hear them justify all the calls from pre-flop to the river after catching runner runner on 4th and 5th street to do the guy who hit the K high flop and bet the bejasus out of every street and couldn't shake the guy off. The new players see and hear this and so the trend goes on. I just think more chips and short blinds encourages bad play and new players are learning bad play. I think a 5K stack with 20/25 min blinds will put manners on this kind of play and new players will learn better play.

VEGAS NIGHTS

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote: »

Cheers Danny,

I hadn't read that thread before and just read it from start to finnish.... very interesting.

I see a lot of new players taking up the game during our weekly pub games. They come in and see other players winning big pots with their 8,5s against AK and hear them justify all the calls from pre-flop to the river after catching runner runner on 4th and 5th street to do the guy who hit the K high flop and bet the bejasus out of every street and couldn't shake the guy off. The new players see and hear this and so the trend goes on. I just think more chips and short blinds encourages bad play and new players are learning bad play. I think a 5K stack with 20/25 min blinds will put manners on this kind of play and new players will learn better play.

You think that shorter stacks and blind levels will stop people making bad calls? You think the AK guy in your above scenario was trying to "shake him off"?

The game needs bad players. Let them learn bad habits. The overall standard of poker is far far higher than it was 5-10 years ago so the more bad players that keep playing like you describe above the better.

VEGAS NIGHTS

You think that shorter stacks and blind levels will stop people making bad calls? You think the AK guy in your above scenario was trying to "shake him off"?

I'm not saying short stacks and short blinds. I'm saying a shorter stack with longer blinds.

The game needs bad players. Let them learn bad habits. The overall standard of poker is far far higher than it was 5-10 years ago so the more bad players that keep playing like you describe above the better.

LOL... that's sick:D

tylerdurden94

I think regadless of starting stacks your still gonna get bad bad players who had developed so many bad habits that its very hard for them to shake.

Example from watching this years WSOP, 30k starting stack and i think 1 or 2 hour blinds i cant be sure, a guy goes bust in the very first hand, QQ vs AA "i couldnt lay down Queens" its so riciculous.

As Kayroo mentions you need bad players to feed the game.

mdwexford

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote: »

I just think more chips and short blinds encourages bad play and new players are learning bad play.

Sounds good to me.

VEGAS NIGHTS

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote: »

I'm not saying short stacks and short blinds. I'm saying a shorter stack with longer blinds.

LOL... that's sick:D

The structure won't matter a bit. The players who play the current structures badly do so not because of the structures but because they are unable or unwilling to apply any sort of logical thought to the best strategy and plays available to them within that structure.

You can make all the changes you want. There will always be bad players.

Also, why "that's sick"? It's not only true but it is absolutely vital to the survival of the game.

Ste05

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote: »

I think a 5K stack with 20/25 min blinds will put manners on this kind of play and new players will learn better play.

Once they're enjoying themselves, who cares if they're learning good or bad habits, the aim for organisers should be to cater for what their customers want, provide it to them and try and create a friendly atmosphere to hopefully attract new players. Most pub players want a bit of craic with their pints. If they want to learn how to play Poker properly they will.