M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

The M17/M18 is overspecced for a Gort-Tuam motorway. If it was a Gort-Galway & Tuam-Galway it would warrant a higher grade of road.

If the traffic rate on the M17 and M18 averages one car every 7 seconds, then it is overspecced. The traffic figures I used were for the M18, but they are only estimates of future use. The Galway traffic is on the M6.

Reuben1210

marno21 wrote: »

All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.

Yeah, and bikes and tractors aren't permitted on a motorway. There are no permitted accesses other than at junctions or emergency access. There must also be a road all the way along the motorway for emergency access.

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

moyners

Reuben1210 wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.

Yeah, and bikes and tractors aren't permitted on a motorway. There are no permitted accesses other than at junctions or emergency access. There must also be a road all the way along the motorway for emergency access.

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

Tractors are permitted on the motorway if they're capable of travelling 50km/h. Which is insane if you ask me.

Sam Russell

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

The public also pay the toll.

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

m17

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

The public also pay the toll.

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

It's about time the west got sum investment,the east seem too get everything,the should have built the rail link when the where building t2

Sam Russell

m17 wrote: »

It's about time the west got sum investment,the east seem too get everything

What sum were you thinking of?

What capital spending has been going towards Dublin and the commuter belt? The whole area is grinding to a halt. The government did authorise the planning of both Dart Underground and Metro North - only to cancel them both before a shovel was lifted. The amount spent on the two failed efforts would have done a significant amount if it was productive.

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

But we have motorways with no hard shoulders (M1, M50)
Motorways with LILO junctions (M18)
Motorways entirely funded by the state, no ppp (M9)

Yet we have Dual carriageways with higher finance charges for ppp (N25)

Lots of our motorways were Dual carriageways, before a lick of blue paint on the signs changed them.

You're hardly suggesting we build a new road like this?
https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.4821848,-6.0688692,3a,75y,1.81h,60.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK8Rf5HBc789Se1kvjmf4Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

You're hardly suggesting we build a new road like this?
https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.4821848,-6.0688692,3a,75y,1.81h,60.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK8Rf5HBc789Se1kvjmf4Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

That is a standard dual carriageway in NI. We have roads like that - the Stillorgan DC. I am suggesting a lower spec motorway standard midway between the dc you show and the ultra high spec M6 between Athlone and Galway. Even the stretch between Kinnegad and Athlone is lower spec and it was elevated to motorway after it was finished.

If the M6(W) had double the traffic, it still would be way off full. I do not believe the traffic projections for 2014 will even be met by 2024, and even at that they will be tiny compared to the N7 Naas to Mad Cow.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

Ok, thanks for that.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The public also pay the toll.

On some roads, not all Ie:M11

Sam Russell wrote: »

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Fair enough, and cheaper and easier to upgrade in future due to sparsely populated areas.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

Yeah, over 250M€ wasted on DART underground and metro north planning, as they were both cancelled. That's 90m€ more than it cost to build the flyover at newland's cross, and the Arklow-Rathnew Motorway scheme.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

What sum were you thinking of?

What capital spending has been going towards Dublin and the commuter belt? The whole area is grinding to a halt. The government did authorise the planning of both Dart Underground and Metro North - only to cancel them both before a shovel was lifted. The amount spent on the two failed efforts would have done a significant amount if it was productive.

And in the last year, Dublin has got so so much more congested...it really is close to grinding to a halt.....possibly deterring FDI

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is a standard dual carriageway in NI. We have roads like that - the Stillorgan DC. I am suggesting a lower spec motorway standard midway between the dc you show and the ultra high spec M6 between Athlone and Galway. Even the stretch between Kinnegad and Athlone is lower spec and it was elevated to motorway after it was finished.

If the M6(W) had double the traffic, it still would be way off full. I do not believe the traffic projections for 2014 will even be met by 2024, and even at that they will be tiny compared to the N7 Naas to Mad Cow.

A lot depends on how fast Galway and other towns grow in the coming years, and how much jobs/investment is attracted there!

m17

D Trent wrote: »

Site selected
http://galwaybayfm.ie/step-forward-for-controversial-motorway-service-station-between-athenry-and-oranmore/

Here's where that msa will be built at location 2 on the map

marno21

The M50, the Cork N25 roundabouts, the Nenagh bypass, the Croom bypass are all examples of why schemes such as this, and other 'overspecced' ones have to be futureproofed. It's just a pity the junctions aren't as well planned as the actual mainlines.

This isn't a 'full motorway'. It's basically a dual carriageway that has had motorway restrictions applied to it. Look how wide the M7 Portlaoise bypass or older motorway schemes that were planned as motorway all along are compared to schemes like this.

1. Narrow median - less land take
2. Reduced width lanes & hard shoulders - less land take, less earthworks
3. Compact interchanges - the last junction on the M18 northbound will be a pair of LILOs

This scheme will be much cheaper than the highest grade of motorway currently in Ireland, which you can see along the M1, M4, M7 & M11. This would've been a DC only that a rightful decision was made to apply motorway regulations to these DCs.

Sam Russell

Reuben1210 wrote: »

A lot depends on how fast Galway and other towns grow in the coming years, and how much jobs/investment is attracted there!

True but it will be a much greater growth in Dublin if the past is to go by.

Schadenfreudia

Reuben1210 wrote: »

A lot depends on how fast Galway and other towns grow in the coming years, and how much jobs/investment is attracted there!

Won't attract very much if the attitude to the bypass represents the local majority!

Schadenfreudia

m17 wrote: »

It's about time the west got sum investment,the east seem too get everything

Per capita - that is simply untrue.

ratracer

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Won't attract very much if the attitude to the bypass represents the local majority!

Except it doesn't! The nimby's and the tree huggers are literally holding the city to ransom at the moment. I kinda understand why people are pissed off at the thought of losing their homes just to save some bog cotton though!!

Reuben1210

ratracer wrote: »

Except it doesn't! The nimby's and the tree huggers are literally holding the city to ransom at the moment. I kinda understand why people are pissed off at the thought of losing their homes just to save some bog cotton though!!

When you put it like that....

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

This isn't a 'full motorway'. It's basically a dual carriageway that has had motorway restrictions applied to it. Look how wide the M7 Portlaoise bypass or older motorway schemes that were planned as motorway all along are compared to schemes like this.
...

This scheme will be much cheaper than the highest grade of motorway currently in Ireland, which you can see along the M1, M4, M7 & M11. This would've been a DC only that a rightful decision was made to apply motorway regulations to these DCs.

A road is a Motorway in Ireland if the minister decrees it so. A S2 could be Motorway

We have "motorways" such as sections of the N25(Waterford bypass) N40 (Lynch tunnel) where bikes, sulkys etc are banned
France has similar such as the N12 or the D618 in PO, where non motorway traffic are banned

The M1 has sections of low quality, no hard shoulders across Broadmeadow
M11 has a lilo at the exit beside the Dargle, the lilo exit slip starts on the m11
There's also a very short online at the M11s under Connacht Ave at Bray

Some unrestricted Autobahn in worse than our hqdc, such as lilos etc


Building new roads with median openings is madness. Building new all purpose roads without shoulders is bananas too

marno21

Carawaystick wrote: »

A road is a Motorway in Ireland if the minister decrees it so. A S2 could be Motorway

We have "motorways" such as sections of the N25(Waterford bypass) N40 (Lynch tunnel) where bikes, sulkys etc are banned
France has similar such as the N12 or the D618 in PO, where non motorway traffic are banned

The M1 has sections of low quality, no hard shoulders across Broadmeadow
M11 has a lilo at the exit beside the Dargle, the lilo exit slip starts on the m11
There's also a very short online at the M11s under Connacht Ave at Bray

Some unrestricted Autobahn in worse than our hqdc, such as lilos etc


Building new roads with median openings is madness. Building new all purpose roads without shoulders is bananas too

The sections of N18, N25 and N40 are not motorways. They are access restricted dual carriageways (N18 and N40 loosely so because they are tunnels).

Is this junction 6 on the M11 you are on about? There's a bridge on the M7 between Nenagh and Birdhill with no shoulders either. The Port Tunnel has no hard shoulders.

Geogregor

marno21 wrote: »

The sections of N18, N25 and N40 are not motorways. They are access restricted dual carriageways (N18 and N40 loosely so because they are tunnels).

In terms of cost I don't think there is much difference between HQDC and motorway as they are actually built to pretty much the same standards.
That's why so many of them could be re-designated as motorways.

If you look at N25 Waterford bypass and how it is build I wouldn't say it was cheaper than, let say, M6 or M9. I might be wrong, someone must have data about the actual cost.
I guess any differences have more to do with local conditions rather than the fact if the road is built as HQDC or motorway.

To really save costs you would have to go for lower specs dual carriageway. I guess you could drop hard shoulders but still would have to keep grade separation. So how much could be saved that way and would it be worth it in terms of safety and future-proofing?

Besides, the M17/M18 is getting build as a motorway so this discussion is rather academic

Chris_5339762

N25 Waterford is motorway standard AFAIK (or Type 1 DC as its know, or HQDC). They didn't redesignate it because they didn't want isolated sections of motorway floating around. A poor choice, IMO.

m17

The flyover at brockagh Corofin will open next Tuesday 08/03/16

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

N25 Waterford is motorway standard AFAIK (or Type 1 DC as its know, or HQDC). They didn't redesignate it because they didn't want isolated sections of motorway floating around. A poor choice, IMO.

Ridiculous seeing as it will be attached to similar grade on Waterford-Glenmore & New Ross bypass. It's also attached to the M9 (or almost with the few hundred metres of all purpose after the N24 roundabout)

m17

Pics at annagh hill 05/03/16 flyover will open on the 08/04/16

m17

Pics around tuam pic1roundabout at the start of the tuam bypass pic2 gilmartin road pic3 wier road beams now in place pic4 west wing looking south pic5 flyover 2kms south of tuam

marno21

m17 wrote: »

Pics at annagh hill 05/03/16 flyover will open on the 08/04/16

Good to see M17 signage up 2 years early!

However, surely the N63 will terminate at this junction after 2018 and the road to Claregalway will be an R road?

m17

marno21 wrote: »

Good to see M17 signage up 2 years early!

However, surely the N63 will terminate at this junction after 2018 and the road to Claregalway will be an R road?

At the moment the n63 terminates at loughgroege and still will once the m17 opens,the n63 simply fly over the m17 the only road that will be downgraded is the n17

D Trent

m17 wrote: »

At the moment the n63 terminates at loughgroege and still will once the m17 opens,the n63 simply fly over the m17 the only road that will be downgraded is the n17

When N17 is downgraded the N63 will have to continue on into Galway (Monaghans/Flemings junction)

You can't have a National secondary route terminating at a T junction onto a regional road

Middle Man

D Trent wrote: »

When N17 is downgraded the N63 will have to continue on into Galway (Monaghans/Flemings junction)

You can't have a National secondary route terminating at a T junction onto a regional road

"I wish I was on that N63, stone walls and the grasses green!" - well at least part of the way!